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Arglebargle III posted:The politics of the movie are bizarre, I agree. The Force Awakens showed us an unprovoked attack on the Republic that apparently succeeded in first-striking their fleet, and in The Last Jedi nobody apart from our heroes seems bothered by that at all. There's even a little speech about how Both Sides Are Bad. The message I took away was that cartoon fascism is impossible strong and good people don't give a poo poo, also it's important to shut up and listen to liberal leaders who have A Plan that turns out to be terrible. Better hope a hero from the 70s has been hanging out doing nothing for a decade because he's the only way out of this mess. It's garbled. Taken altogether, the impression I got was that, for the average galactic citizen, the New Republic was not that much of an improvement over the OT Empire. And presumably, for the average galactic citizen, the OT Empire was not that much worse than the PT Republic. "It's not that I like the Republic/Empire/Other Republic. I hate it! But there's nothing I can do about it right now." I wouldn't say that the politics are bizarre, so much as how coy the film is in explaining any of it.
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Dec 25, 2017 06:54
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Powered Descent posted:In the Empire Strikes Back game for Atari 2600, attacks on the walkers' legs did nothing; you just had to shoot their bodies like fifty times each. If you fly behind the first at-at and have the one behind it shoot at you, while its laser beam is on the screen the first one cant shoot at you again.
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Dec 25, 2017 07:11
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The Galaxy is weary from war and both sides are littered with self satisfying egomaniacs, is the impression I got
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Dec 25, 2017 07:41
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Arglebargle III posted:The politics of the movie are bizarre, I agree. The Force Awakens showed us an unprovoked attack on the Republic that apparently succeeded in first-striking their fleet, and in The Last Jedi nobody apart from our heroes seems bothered by that at all. There's even a little speech about how Both Sides Are Bad. The message I took away was that cartoon fascism is impossible strong and good people don't give a poo poo, also it's important to shut up and listen to liberal leaders who have A Plan that turns out to be terrible. Better hope a hero from the 70s has been hanging out doing nothing for a decade because he's the only way out of this mess. It's garbled. I got the gist from the film that the rich elites, like the folks on Canto Bight, weren't ever really that won over by the Rebel Alliance and/or that disapproving of the Empire. They probably became rich elites due to making deals with the Imperial government, if they weren't a part of it altogether. They didn't care that there was an Imperial flag on every planet, etc. If anything, when the New Republic was founded, it probably pissed them off, the way regime change usually pisses off the people that benefited most from the regime. So when the remnants of the Empire promised to put things back the way they were, they were happy to collaborate. That, combined with the destruction of the New Republic's capital system and fleet, was a show of force that cowed those who did support the Resistance, hence why nobody was responding to their distress calls on Cait, or whatever the salt planet was called. So it was a one-two punch of collaborators and intimidated resistors that led to Space Fascism's resurgence, not some inevitability of them being impossibly strong. I do agree that Holdo's plan being kept secret was garbage, though. I think that what they were going for was that the best plans don't matter if you don't have trust. Holdo's plan was far more likely to work than Finn/Rose's, but Poe trusted them and not Holdo, so backed them all the way. Even though Holdo's plan would have worked, the fact that Poe only found out about it at the moment of absolute crisis drove him into a corner. I highly doubt he'd have started a mutiny if he had been told the plan from the get-go, even if he had misgivings about it.
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Dec 25, 2017 07:49
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Has there been any developments on those "personal films" Lucas said he was gonna be making?
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Dec 25, 2017 09:31
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I rank the movies as: 1. ANH 2. ESB 3. ROTJ / TLJ 4. TFA / TPM 5. R1 6. ROTS 7. AOTC 8. Solo (pre-emptively) 9. Clone Wars (could move up one; I'll know in May) Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 12:45 on Dec 25, 2017 |
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Dec 25, 2017 10:36
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Dec 25, 2017 10:48
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Lol if Vegeta thinks he's going to win a fight.
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Dec 25, 2017 11:53
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So basically you are going to scream autistically for six weeks then get murdered?
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Dec 25, 2017 12:10
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Mulva posted:So basically you are going to scream autistically for six weeks then get murdered? That's a mirror.
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Dec 25, 2017 12:20
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To be clear I don't think you're supposed to agree with DJ as the viewer, but I think his viewpoint is tempting to people who were already living a poo poo life as a slave under the Republic that the Resistance wants to restore.
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Dec 25, 2017 12:27
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Milky Moor posted:That's a mirror. Did you just go to bat for Vegeta?
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Dec 25, 2017 12:32
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Irony Be My Shield posted:I think the scene where DJ talked about the arms dealers made it pretty clear why no-one cared about the Resistance - to most of the galaxy they are just an armed group that buys weapons from the assholes who oppress everyone, much like the First Order. Doing poo poo like what Finn and Rose did is what they need to do to win the hearts and minds of the common people and create a true rebellion, just as much as they need to do flashy heroics with the force. That is the implication, which is god drat stupid. The democratic republic is just as bad as the fascist empire that blew up planets and enslaved species? What the gently caress? What kind of statement does this make of the people of the Star wars universe? Or are they saying that the Republic was also a fascist regime that blew up planets for fun? What an incomprehensible mess this movie is. CelticPredator posted:Finns story directly affects the ending and whole point of the film. Jesus goddamn loving Christ I dunno, maybe they shouldn't have made it so boring and out of place then? Or, I dunno, follow through with it's criticism of the rich in any meaningful way beyond saying "Rich people are bad". What a waste of Bodega. CelticPredator posted:I can’t believe people dislike this film It's easy, this was a poo poo film, whose only redeeming grace is that it wasn't quite as poo poo as TFA.
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Dec 25, 2017 13:59
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TFA was more enjoyable. “Where’s my boyfriend?”
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Dec 25, 2017 14:10
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There's lots of ways to tell whether a movie of this size is good or not, but I think there's only one way to tell whether people like it, and that's by looking at how much money it's made or will make, because people won't waste money on something they think they won't like (or on going to see something they disliked for a second time). As I've said, TLJ making over a billion dollars seems improbable to me. It will be like Batman v Superman in that regard (some people intensely dislike it, some people like it a lot, underperformed inflated expectations by collapsing after a very high first week).
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Dec 25, 2017 14:13
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I finally saw it last night and enjoyed it, as I am likely to enjoy any cinematic movie, but it wasn't great. I don't really have any major problems with it, just a bunch of small annoying ones that add up. I dug the major set pieces... mostly
John Wick of Dogs fucked around with this message at 14:55 on Dec 25, 2017 |
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Dec 25, 2017 14:45
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McCloud posted:
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Dec 25, 2017 14:51
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Grey Fox posted:It would make it thematically consistent with literature like Rip Van Winkle, where King George's portrait is replaced with one of George Washington but the average joe is living pretty much the same life in the short term. They're not liable to look past their own situation...people are kind of selfish like that. So what it's saying then, is that Nazis are literally just as good as democratically elected officials in how good your average joe has it, therefore we may just as well just stop caring, cause the future is just fascism stomping us in the face forever.
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Dec 25, 2017 15:21
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More like its always going to take those of strong convictions standing up and fighting to make a difference.
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Dec 25, 2017 15:23
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Yes, people like Han, Luke and Leia whose strong convictions defeated the empire, restored the republic and ushered in a new era of peace and prosp..oh...oh wait, no that's not quite how it worked out, did it? No, what happened was, they instead apparently brought back a republic so inept and corrupt that the citizens of the galaxy didn't give a poo poo that the equivalent of Washington DC being nuked by spaze nazis, who then took power. So hurray for strong convictions, I guess?
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Dec 25, 2017 15:30
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McCloud posted:So what it's saying then, is that Nazis are literally just as good as democratically elected officials in how good your average joe has it, therefore we may just as well just stop caring, cause the future is just fascism stomping us in the face forever.
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Dec 25, 2017 15:42
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Arglebargle III posted:The message I took away was that cartoon fascism is impossible strong and good people don't give a poo poo, also it's important to shut up and listen to liberal leaders who have A Plan that turns out to be terrible. Better hope a hero from the 70s has been hanging out doing nothing for a decade because he's the only way out of this mess. drat, yeah, it is pretty on the nose
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Dec 25, 2017 15:48
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McCloud posted:
keep in mind that the republic willingly became the empire and that the resistance and the nu-republic(did this ever get a name?) are separate entities you could read a lot of different reasons into why the average galaxy-dweller doesn't seem to give a poo poo about the resistance but tbh the ST so far has touched on civilians so minorly all we can really go off of so far is del Toro's character who's such an oddball that he definitely isn't supposed to be the view point of the average person in space
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Dec 25, 2017 15:49
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There's an argument to be made that the whole idea of a governing body ruling over an entire galaxy is a ridiculous notion to begin with, so there will essentially be eternal conflict because it's always unstable as gently caress. The Republic can't stop slavery on every planet because--holy poo poo--planets are pretty loving big and you can't shoot your space guns at the problem. The Empire won't stop slavery because enough of their interests are tangled up with slavery-related projects. The First Order isn't a functional government; they're high-tech conquerors with the biggest guns in the galaxy without hesitation to use them on anyone that doesn't kneel. The galaxy is big enough that they can beat the poo poo out of a dozen planets and do business with 200 more that are thinking "glad that wasn't us."
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Dec 25, 2017 15:56
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Things were really lovely for normal people on the casino planet and the way Rose talked about it suggested it was not atypical. Jakku sucks too. McCloud posted:So what it's saying then, is that Nazis are literally just as good as democratically elected officials in how good your average joe has it, therefore we may just as well just stop caring, cause the future is just fascism stomping us in the face forever.
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Dec 25, 2017 15:59
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Some of these interpretations basically sound like "You tried and you failed. The lesson is, never try." That arms dealers are making money off both sides doesn't mean the First Order isn't bad. The lesson Finn learns is that victory isn't going to be through destroying the enemy again. They have to inspire justice. Like what I hope they're pointing towards is the characters trying to find some way to break the cycle. Granted this would make yet another trilogy, as is being planned, harder to do.
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Dec 25, 2017 16:05
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Obi-Wan's attitude in the prequels is supposed to indicate why the average galactic citizen probably doesn't pine for the days of the Republic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58JwbQCnpmA
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Dec 25, 2017 16:07
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Irony Be My Shield posted:No - the First Order are very clearly evil and need to be stopped. It's just we need to also acknowledge there are a lot of problems with the status quo and fight those injustices as well. This was the core theme to me — Rey and Kylo both reject the status quo, but have very different approaches. Rey learns from the past, moving beyond the twice-failed jedi ideology but making use of its lessons. Kylo wants to destroy the past, like a typical futurist/fascist. Conflating the two positions is just run-of-the-mill horseshoe theory nonsense.
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Dec 25, 2017 16:26
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Dec 25, 2017 16:41
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One nitpick I've seen and subsequent explanation for said nitpick is Rey seems to spend days on the Jedi planet while the fleet has six hours of fuel. The explanation I've seen given for this is relativity, the ships are going near light speed so time pass slower for them. Isn't the simplest explanation just that these scenes were not being shown in order and real time? and that time in the movie basically syncs up once she gets on the falcon?
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Dec 25, 2017 16:50
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Oh yeah here's something I thought I saw but I think I may have imagined because it didn't make sense and wasn't commented on. In Canto Bight the codebreaker they were originally meant to meet, the guy in the White suit with the red lapel, they see him right before being arrested for a parking violation. In the ship with the hyperspace tracker when they go into the room to shut it off only to find Phasma and the evil BB8, and some more Stormtroopers... Was that white suit lapel guy in the room? I could swear I saw him there next to Phasma but I can't make any sense of it.
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Dec 25, 2017 16:58
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I liked the movie but I wasn't fascinated by it. I feel that the whole Planet Monaco-arms dealer sub plot should have been tackled in another movie, here it didn't pan out as the time constraints of the main story wouldn't permit it. But I thought it was really interesting to see what started out as a deconstruction of the lore itself (what is the force for, what are the jedi good for, why all this incessant fighting) and truly, the movie had a shot of taking this series on a whole different spin had Rey taken kylo's offer. I'm not mad at all having seen it, but I do undestand why the fans are upset at it too.
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Dec 25, 2017 17:12
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Serf posted:Obi-Wan's attitude in the prequels is supposed to indicate why the average galactic citizen probably doesn't pine for the days of the Republic I remember one critique (I think I might have been Hbomberguy, but I'm not sure) which observed that whether Lucas meant it to be or not, the Republic as portrayed in the prequels doesn't really seem worth saving - it's corrupt, overrun by bureaucrats and even mega-corporations like the Trade Federation are represented in the senate - and the leaders of the Rebellion trying to restore it (Mon Mothma, Leia's father et al.) were all members of its senate, even if they were ones who opposed Palpatine. It was an interesting comment and one that honestly hadn't occurred to me before. The Old Republic lasts a thousand years, the Empire lasts for about 20, then the New Republic has been around for 30. It isn't clear whether the New Republic is straight-up dead and gone after the events of TFA or if it's just in disarray (since TFA and TLJ together take place over the course of about one week) and will be able to consolidate its forces and regroup to fight back against the First Order in time for Episode IX.
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Dec 25, 2017 17:15
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the republic is a pro-slavery government. they are pretty clearly intended to be unsympathetic
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Dec 25, 2017 17:21
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McCloud posted:Yes, people like Han, Luke and Leia whose strong convictions defeated the empire, restored the republic and ushered in a new era of peace and prosp..oh...oh wait, no that's not quite how it worked out, did it? No, what happened was, they instead apparently brought back a republic so inept and corrupt that the citizens of the galaxy didn't give a poo poo that the equivalent of Washington DC being nuked by spaze nazis, who then took power. Han, Luke, and Leia idolized the idea of the old republic but were ignorant of the structural flaws in it that created the empire. A spectre is haunting the galaxy, etc etc...
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Dec 25, 2017 17:43
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Serf posted:the republic is a pro-slavery government. they are pretty clearly intended to be unsympathetic We don't know anything about the new republic.
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Dec 25, 2017 17:54
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CelticPredator posted:I can’t believe people dislike this film Agreed. This was a very good film and had a good message that even in hopeless times what you can do is help and save each other and be there for the ones you love and that's what is required to inspire over badass violence. Even Luke doesn't throw a single saber at Kylo but does more to give that spark hope than any gloryhounding. He redeems himself and saves everyone by just being there and having them lean on him.
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Dec 25, 2017 17:54
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Al Borland Corp. posted:One nitpick I've seen and subsequent explanation for said nitpick is The explanation is the whole chase scene driving the plot was a mess and should have been scrapped in the draft phase.
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Dec 25, 2017 17:56
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McCloud posted:
Agree with all of this except I think I'd rather watch TFA again than this. I'm on the fence on this being worse than Clones.
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Dec 25, 2017 18:00
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Arglebargle III posted:The explanation is the whole chase scene driving the plot was a mess and should have been scrapped in the draft phase. Yes let's just make an entirely different movie.
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Dec 25, 2017 18:01
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