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Those suggestions seem to require thinking, planning, and leadership to be implemented. I've got some bad news for you.
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Dec 26, 2017 16:16
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It's hard to think when your brain is misfiring at all cylinders
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Dec 26, 2017 16:21
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Boon posted:It's hard to think when your brain is misfiring at all cylinders It's all that seawater getting in the oil.
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Dec 26, 2017 17:52
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Godholio posted:It's all that seawater getting in the oil. The design that allows this to happen is completely hosed from every direction and makes me angry. That's just stupid. Only an absolute rear end in a top hat would decide this design was a great idea, that should be impossible unless there was an extreme error chain and breakdown in maintenance. lightpole fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Dec 26, 2017 |
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Dec 26, 2017 18:48
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Godholio posted:It's all that seawater getting in the oil. Still don’t understand how it’s the CO’s fault. 
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Dec 26, 2017 18:58
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lightpole posted:an extreme error chain and breakdown in maintenance.
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Dec 26, 2017 19:04
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Rejected that as too implausible in favor of the theory that they were just filling the sump with pails of salt water when the level dropped.
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Dec 26, 2017 19:23
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Why in the name of gently caress is a seawater feed pump using the same oil supply as the main engines?
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Dec 26, 2017 20:03
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Cost cutting
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Dec 26, 2017 20:06
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MrYenko posted:Why in the name of gently caress is a seawater feed pump using the same oil supply as the main engines? How in the name of gently caress does seawater leak in that direction? LO press should be higher. Seals are designed with that type of failure in mind. So many questions. . I could only assume it was the engine driven CW pump that was SW cooled for some reason. Unless you are using a turbine driven CW pump which would be insane? Edit: sticking with pails of SW dumped in sump theory lightpole fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Dec 26, 2017 |
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Dec 26, 2017 20:43
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lightpole posted:How in the name of gently caress does seawater leak in that direction? LO press should be higher. Seals are designed with that type of failure in mind. So many questions. . Engine off for an extended period, seal far below the waterline? Improperly installed seal?
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Dec 26, 2017 20:50
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Slavic Crime Yacht posted:Engine off for an extended period, seal far below the waterline? 2nd one I'm thinking, if it was engine driven it could migrate through the seal to the crankcase along that shaft of the drive gear right? Those are just spray lubricated without pressure? I would need to look at a drawing to actually use correct terminology etc. I'm not sure I've ever hosed with that seal. Also, if it was SW cooled there wouldn't be an indication like CW HT level drop, only sump level and LO testing. Edit: No those are pressurized, your theory is the only one that makes sense. Now I remember, the C9s have GE gen sets that were spray lubed and would run into such a problem. The 3rd kept a close eye on the LO testing. Those were built in the early 80s though and have a bunch of dead end tech. lightpole fucked around with this message at 21:36 on Dec 26, 2017 |
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Dec 26, 2017 21:12
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Anita Dickinme posted:Still don’t understand how it’s the CO’s fault. Bad timing on his part.
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Dec 26, 2017 21:14
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lightpole posted:2nd one I'm thinking, if it was engine driven it could migrate through the seal to the crankcase along that shaft of the drive gear right? Those are just spray lubricated without pressure? I would need to look at a drawing to actually use correct terminology etc. I'm not sure I've ever hosed with that seal. Even then wouldn't you generally have it set up with telltales and lil lip seals or something that would make any misplaced oil or water obvious? Edit yeah man the c9s have mad obsolete technology they must've been real show ponies in their day shovelbum fucked around with this message at 21:55 on Dec 26, 2017 |
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Dec 26, 2017 21:50
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shovelbum posted:Even then wouldn't you generally have it set up with telltales and lil lip seals or something that would make any misplaced oil or water obvious? Trying to remember but thought on the engine driven it goes water side then LO side in crankcase/gearbox? Not really easy to have an indicator on that side right? That's why you almost rely on the higher LO press? You have worked more recently than me look at a manual next time.
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Dec 26, 2017 22:09
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lightpole posted:Trying to remember but thought on the engine driven it goes water side then LO side in crankcase/gearbox? Not really easy to have an indicator on that side right? That's why you almost rely on the higher LO press? You have worked more recently than me look at a manual next time. I remember the last like Himsen JW pump I pulled was like water, mech seal, cavity w leak off, oil lip seal and then drive gears. And then that leak off had a channel through the pump body to the outside and you could see if it leaked water or (less likely) oil. Like there was no LO pressure really but any leakage would come out of the engine where it was obvious.
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Dec 26, 2017 22:22
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Forgot about the cavity. GEs didn't have that. If they stuck with a US supplier they might not have such advanced tech?
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Dec 26, 2017 22:26
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lightpole posted:Forgot about the cavity. GEs didn't have that. If they stuck with a US supplier they might not have such advanced tech? It's okay, Himsen didn't have a drain cavity on the fuel pumps so the oil was mostly LSFO after a while anyway
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Dec 26, 2017 22:28
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lightpole posted:Forgot about the cavity. GEs didn't have that. If they stuck with a US supplier they might not have such advanced tech? Excuse me but then when things break horrifically (on every hull) they wouldn't be able to spend poo poo tons of money overnighting dudes from Germany. The engineering plant on both variants is an absolute mess, Freedom moreso than Indy.
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Dec 26, 2017 22:36
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PneumonicBook posted:Excuse me but then when things break horrifically (on every hull) they wouldn't be able to spend poo poo tons of money overnighting dudes from Germany. Himsen is MAN tech licensed to Korea I think. Those are pretty easy to maintain, why would you need techs all the time? Our supposition is correct shovelbum, seal failed, no cavity, SW cooled engine driven etc lightpole fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Dec 26, 2017 |
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Dec 26, 2017 22:44
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lightpole posted:Himsen is MAN tech licensed to Korea I think. That sucks, what engines are on those anyway?
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Dec 26, 2017 23:39
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American made, I didn't ask.
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Dec 26, 2017 23:43
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piL posted:I think the attraction to five and dimes rests in the shared motivation watch teams get to qualify additional watch standers and rotate them through secretly before the senior watch officer finds out, then pretend you didn't know any better. I did 6/6 last civil ship I worked on; dredging... One dredge I was on temporarily in ‘13 did 8/4/4/8... it was pretty awesome. Though I did the 8 hours off from 00-0800. Then I’d do a 08-12, off 12-16, and my long shift was 16-00, with the captain giving me a 30 minute chow break at 1730 ish... The guy opposite of me was on the 00-08 and that kinda sucked, but he got chow relief at 0600 or so. We only drilled on sundays tho’. Maybe they should bring CivMars on to drive from point A-B, with the mil folks for redundancy and training or whatever.
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Dec 27, 2017 04:24
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The Navy already has functional pre-arriving-on-ship training pipelines and actually enforced crew rest periods in aviation, right? It's not a huge stretch to treat ship handling and navigation the same way, if you want to do it right.
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Dec 27, 2017 04:35
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Dingleberry posted:Maybe they should bring CivMars on to drive from point A-B, with the mil folks for redundancy and training or whatever. We already have this, it's called Military Sealift Command.
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Dec 27, 2017 04:40
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Dunno why surface ships can't just do 6/6/6 like the subs do.
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Dec 27, 2017 04:41
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lightpole posted:American made, I didn't ask. Found some info http://www.cpf.navy.mil/foia/reading-room/2017/11/freedom-mpde.pdf The seal completely blew, compartment started flooding via the telltale, which they then plugged because they thought it was a blown out casing plug and anyway the normal SW valves didn't stop it. It looks like they failed to isolate a fire main crossover and water kept flooding in, but from the report it doesn't sound like that valve held entirely properly either. Doesn't look like it was an optimal response but if the valves don't hold then lol hosed. Edit: still no excuse for using your main engine sump and prelube system as the world's most expensive King's Point gasket shovelbum fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 04:56
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shovelbum posted:Found some info Haha that's amazing! I can forgive the confusion with plugging the telltale but the amount of water pouring out combined with the filling of the sump, somebody should have put 2 and 2 together. The complete failure to think through the contamination of the engine with a running prelube and then work to flush it is amazing. Those water in oil tests only take 2 minutes of shaking or whatever so I'm amazed they didn't even do one. The Colt Pielsticks explain everything though. That crew was probably miserable just keeping poo poo running. My buddy deals with the Indy though so at least he didn't gently caress that one up.
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Dec 27, 2017 05:40
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Yeah I've never worked on those engines but hear they're truly horrible, the standard issue Korean poo poo may be dull but it's mostly idiot proof. I wonder if there isn't more to this story, like the fire main crossover reducer failed open and they blew out the seal under double or triple working pressure or something.
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Dec 27, 2017 05:45
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The engine driven pump is backed up by the emergency fire pumps so uh yes, you are correct I think. The fire pumps assisted with filling that void space at which point the plug enabled it to pressurize and then enter the crankcase which is at negative press due to being a crankcase is how it went? They could have closed one more valve to further slow the ingress but it literally was a horrendous error/failure chain compounded every way imaginable. I'm still unsure of the full factors due to system complexity. I would really need a drawing and a walk through of the lineup. Trying to think this through from so far away after a quarter of school is hard so I've hosed up my imagining it several times already. Edit: Those Himsens are awesome I don't know what you mean by dull. I'll take idiot proof with easy to work on any day cause then I can't gently caress it up. I'm not sure about the initial blowout. I'm too far removed but if every other valve manages to fail I'm not a believer in outliers. lightpole fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 06:09
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lightpole posted:Edit: Those Himsens are awesome I don't know what you mean by dull. I'll take idiot proof with easy to work on any day cause then I can't gently caress it up. Good point, see also the numerous hilarious and obscure Sulzer Flex single point failure modes.
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Dec 27, 2017 06:14
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lightpole posted:Colt Pielsticks As a deck officer, I... Nope can’t finish that. Someone actually bought Pielsticks on a new build in this day and age? loving lol. Pielstick: we sell the engine cheap and make it up on spare parts! Everybody... wins?
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Dec 27, 2017 06:37
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FrozenVent posted:As a deck officer, I... US Navy would require US manufactured engines. Cats would obviously be.my preference.
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Dec 27, 2017 06:45
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lightpole posted:US Navy would require US manufactured engines. Cats would obviously be.my preference. Unfortunately not sure Cat makes anything that big in yellow. I wish I knew more about MaK but I haven't run into any.
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Dec 27, 2017 06:54
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shovelbum posted:The Navy already has functional pre-arriving-on-ship training pipelines and actually enforced crew rest periods in aviation, right? It's not a huge stretch to treat ship handling and navigation the same way, if you want to do it right. You need about 50% more bodies on a ship right now (some jobs need more) to get anything close to crew rest for surface sailors.
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Dec 27, 2017 12:22
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Mr. Nice! posted:You need about 50% more bodies on a ship right now (some jobs need more) to get anything close to crew rest for surface sailors. Who knew chronic undermanning since 1991, without a reduction in mission scope, would cause fleet readiness and retention problems?! Not I!
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Dec 27, 2017 13:09
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I wonder how watches are scheduled on the Zumwalts.
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Dec 27, 2017 13:12
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Currently we're doing 6/6 in the ops divisions aboard the Danish ships. We're at a crew of 117 per frigate. That is if we were fully manned of course, which we seldom are. The Danish armed forces don't have a forced minimum length on our contracts, so people quit before we can properly train them at all. In my section they last less than a year before leaving on average. It's kind of hard to get anything done without a lot of micromanaging, our just accepting that we're pretty poo poo.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:03
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orange juche posted:Who knew chronic undermanning since 1991, without a reduction in mission scope, would cause fleet readiness and retention problems?! Not I! Deliberate undermanning, even, from 2000-2013ish or whenever it was they finally decided "optimal manning" was a mistake. And hell, there's been increase in the mission scope since then.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:00
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ded posted:Dunno why surface ships can't just do 6/6/6 like the subs do. Circadian has been standard on subs for 4 or 5 years now. COs can still go 6's under special circumstances. We did 8-8-8 normally with 6-6-6-6 every other Sunday to rotate the sections. If watchstanders had to go port and starboard we'd do 8-4-4-8 for important watches or just 12-12 otherwise.
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Dec 27, 2017 18:20
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