Pacific Northwest Thread Mk. II: Crossing the Duwamish

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What regions belong in the Pacific Northwest?
	Alaska, US
	British Columbia, CA
	Washington, US
	Oregon, US
	Idaho, US
	Montana, US
	Wyoming, US
	California, US (MODS PLEASE BAN ANYONE VOTING FOR THIS OPTION TIA)

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FRINGE: May 23, 2003; title stolen for lf posting

HEY NONG MAN posted:

Uh that's why we have all these fires now I thought.

Well yeah. If the state were turned into end-to-end dry desert than power companies wouldnt be able to start wildfires and the problem would be solved!

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-utility-wildfires-20171017-story.html

quote:

Power lines and electrical equipment are a leading cause of California wildfires

The deadliest wildfires in state history have raised questions about whether a repeat culprit might again be to blame for starting or spreading at least some of the Northern California blazes: utility companies and their equipment.

The explosive failure of power lines and other electrical equipment has regularly ranked among the top three singular sources of California wildfires for the last several years. In 2015, the last year of reported data, electrical power problems sparked the burning of 149,241 acres � more than twice the amount from any other cause.

...

But a review of emergency radio traffic recordings found that fire crews were dispatched to at least 10 spots in Sonoma County in response to reports of sparking electrical wires and exploding transformers as high winds pummeled the area on the night of Oct. 8, the San Jose Mercury News reported. The first fires were reported about the same time, the newspaper said.

The electrical lines and equipment are owned by Pacific Gas & Electric Co. Spokeswoman Jennifer Robison said the San Francisco utility is focusing on ensuring the safety of those affected by the fires, rather than engaging in debate over the cause before investigators complete their work.

http://www.marinij.com/article/NO/20171021/NEWS/171029951

quote:

PG&E helped stall effort to map risky power lines prone to wildfires

For the better part of a decade, California�s utilities have helped to stall the state�s effort to map where their power lines present the highest risk for wildfires, an initiative that critics say could have forced Pacific Gas and Electric Co. to strengthen power poles and bolster maintenance efforts before this month�s deadly North Bay fires.

...

The Bay Area News Group revealed last week that within the first 90 minutes of the fires in Sonoma and Napa counties, firefighters received reports of at least 10 blown transformers or downed power lines at the same time they were called out to battle 19 structure and vegetation fires.

PG&E has acknowledged that some of its lines and poles went down that first night of the fires, citing drought-ravaged trees and what it insisted was a �historic wind event.� But this news organization found that the winds when the fires were first reported were roughly half the speed that power poles and lines are required by law to withstand.

Southern California Edison is already wringing their hands about their stock plummeting because of the Ventura fires.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-edison-stock-fires-20171207-story.html

quote:

As wildfires spread through the Southland this week, Southern California Edison�s parent company saw its stock price plummet on investors� fears that the utility could be forced to pay costs related to the blazes.

So basically clearcutting old complicated ecosystems is not necessarily the needed step to stop "wild" fires when most of them are not "wild" in the sense that people imply.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 05:21

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# ? May 11, 2024 15:19

porkface: Dec 29, 2000

Libs love talking about the importance of contributing to society, but when a bunch of righties see an industry dry up it's Uhaul + bootstraps time.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 05:26

DR FRASIER KRANG: Feb 4, 2005; "Are you forgetting that just this afternoon I was punched in the face by a turtle now dead?

What's a lib

# ? Dec 26, 2017 05:29

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

cheetah7071 posted:

Well it's complicated and there's multiple causes but putting out every fire leads to fuel accumulation which means that the next time lightning strikes during mega fire conditions, the spark has the fuel it needs to actually form that mega fire. There's multiple ways to attempt to combat this and thinning is one and has the nice side effect of allowing you to sell the lumber.

I don't know the situation with Oregon's forests but I bet the forest service is mismanaging them in similar ways and thinning would do them good and provide some logging jobs

The issue isn't thinning but clear-cutting, ultimately thinning probably isn't profitable for most companies to be interested. Also, as far as the gorge fire goes, most of the land up there was parkland and clear-cutting wouldn't have gone over well.

Also, another the big issue with thinning isn't losing the trees but the type of roads and the erosion they would cause in order to access those trees which probably means completely devastating the area anyway.

Ardennes fucked around with this message at 05:40 on Dec 26, 2017

# ? Dec 26, 2017 05:37

therobit: Aug 19, 2008; I've been tryin' to speak with you for a long time

That is also why the timber industry dried up here. We have plenty of trees but the cheapest, easiest ones to log are already clearcut and will take a while to grow back. With the competition from Canadian softwoods that the Canadian government changes basically nothing to log off, it has been a losing proposition to log what is left that is not protected. With the new 20% tariff on Canadian wood, we may see a little action now, but I am not sure any mills will be re-opening. I don't think that we should log any more pre-columbian forrest, but second and third growth should be open for logging as long as it isn't just a bunch of big clear cuts and is properly buffer to provide through-ways for wildlife. A balance needs to be struck where humans can benefit economically from the resource but we don't allow Georgia Pacific or Boise Cascade to just destroy everything.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 05:58

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Tree farming got big in the south north Florida and south Georgia and alot moved down there think of Rayonier as an example. Just grow em in lines on flat land.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 06:03

Peachfart: Jan 21, 2017

Even if logging came back, there would be almost no jobs. Robots and machines cut trees now days.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 06:08

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

I went to one of thier shareholder meetings once, Jeb! was there.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 06:09

therobit: Aug 19, 2008; I've been tryin' to speak with you for a long time

Peachfart posted:

Even if logging came back, there would be almost no jobs. Robots and machines cut trees now days.

Not if we make them horse log individual trees from the center of roadless forrests. (I wish.)

# ? Dec 26, 2017 06:40

Ham Equity: Apr 16, 2013; The first thing we do, let's kill all the cars.; Grimey Drawer

Javid posted:

Counterpoint: "your jobs are gone and never coming back" appeals to nobody. And there is nothing that will change this, regardless of politics.

Let's say you're 100% right. Nobody affected is buying. Your policy platform is "sucks to be you, bruh" and not a solution.

"Just casually uproot your entire family and move with the money you aren't earning, and train into a new career at 40/50/60 with more of that money, and MAYBE you'll get a new job until that industry shits itself too"

E: also I find cause to wonder if the people who seem to think rural Oregon is "logged out" ever actually visit the woods there. There's like tiny rear end specks of clearcut dotting roughly a fuckbillion cubic light years of solid trees out here. Whatever the reason for the decline in logging, it isn't "we ran out of trees"

E E: a real solution would be like, to actually pay for the above stuff. Not some means-tested reimbursement six months down the line. Straight up pay people's expenses to transition to a new, gainful industry.

porkface posted:

Libs love talking about the importance of contributing to society, but when a bunch of righties see an industry dry up it's Uhaul + bootstraps time.

I mean, we're talking about mincome, which is hardly "bootstrap your way up." But like Peachfarts pointed out, even if we wanted to clear cut every tree in the Oregon wilderness (which, y'know, probably isn't a great idea), it wouldn't create all that many jobs due to automation.

So, if people need to be "given something to do," aside from presumably having their rent/food paid for with a mincome, what you're talking about there is a fundamental reworking of the nature of our capitalist society; either some sort of full employment from the government, or doing away with the 40-hour work week, in favor of something that requires substantially more employees (like a 25-hour work week). Either of which seems to me to be roughly as possible as "your jobs are gone and never coming back" line. And what industry are we transitioning them to that they can work from rural Oregon? Or is "just casually uproot your entire family and move" still the line we're giving them?

Alternatively, adopting the Trump strategy of straight-up lying to them seems effective. "All of your logging jobs are coming back, this time with hookers, and blackjack!"

# ? Dec 26, 2017 08:05

porkface: Dec 29, 2000

Thanatosian posted:

I mean, we're talking about mincome, which is hardly "bootstrap your way up." But like Peachfarts pointed out, even if we wanted to clear cut every tree in the Oregon wilderness (which, y'know, probably isn't a great idea), it wouldn't create all that many jobs due to automation.

So, if people need to be "given something to do," aside from presumably having their rent/food paid for with a mincome, what you're talking about there is a fundamental reworking of the nature of our capitalist society; either some sort of full employment from the government, or doing away with the 40-hour work week, in favor of something that requires substantially more employees (like a 25-hour work week). Either of which seems to me to be roughly as possible as "your jobs are gone and never coming back" line. And what industry are we transitioning them to that they can work from rural Oregon? Or is "just casually uproot your entire family and move" still the line we're giving them?

Alternatively, adopting the Trump strategy of straight-up lying to them seems effective. "All of your logging jobs are coming back, this time with hookers, and blackjack!"

Fair, I just think there should have been muuuuch greater investment in retraining and a marketing campaign to raise awareness of it.

I think Obama did a lot of great things, but kind of petered out when it came to investment in retraining. Maybe there's only so much political capital that can be spent in 2 terms. Or maybe he got stung by the failure of his investment in solar. But it's why so many people felt disenfranchised, and Libs online and in the media weren't showing enough sympathy or drive to help.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 08:09

Peachfart: Jan 21, 2017

porkface posted:

Fair, I just think there should have been muuuuch greater investment in retraining and a marketing campaign to raise awareness of it.

I think Obama did a lot of great things, but kind of petered out when it came to investment in retraining. Maybe there's only so much political capital that can be spent in 2 terms. Or maybe he got stung by the failure of his investment in solar. But it's why so many people felt disenfranchised, and Libs online and in the media weren't showing enough sympathy or drive to help.

What are you going to train people in distant rural suburbs to even do? It isn't like there is a desperate need for computer programmers in their town of 2000 people.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 08:20

seiferguy: Jun 9, 2005; FLAWED
INTUITION; Toilet Rascal

Not all remote jobs need to be programming. There are companies that will create virtual call centers in small towns, provided they decide to not go to India / Philippines for that kind of labor. That's one example. There's other things you could do.

I mean, the ideal answer is reworking the fundamental capitalist idea that everyone needs to work 40 hours, but that won't happen overnight. In the meantime a stopgap needs to be in place while we try to raise the social safety net at the same time.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 08:49

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

Javid posted:

E E: a real solution would be like, to actually pay for the above stuff. Not some means-tested reimbursement six months down the line. Straight up pay people's expenses to transition to a new, gainful location.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 16:08

porkface: Dec 29, 2000

I think it's a mix of leaving town and investing in jobs that can either fit in small town USA or be done remotely. And you can't catch everyone, but there needs to be a program that folks in these places can turn for real retraining as industries dry up so it's not such a complete shock to the system.

It's not even that every small town should survive. But the people need somewhere to turn without having to fund retraining entirely on their own. It's just like unemployment, only with significant investment in retraining. It not only would help individuals and families, but it would be good for the economy if there wasn't such a "figure it out yourself" attitude from society.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 18:53

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

seiferguy posted:

Not all remote jobs need to be programming. There are companies that will create virtual call centers in small towns, provided they decide to not go to India / Philippines for that kind of labor. That's one example. There's other things you could do.

This is big in Utah, they target stay at home mothers. It's seems like it works pretty well when they give them flexibility.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 19:08

DR FRASIER KRANG: Feb 4, 2005; "Are you forgetting that just this afternoon I was punched in the face by a turtle now dead?

True. My buddy who is habitually unemployed worked a call center in Utah to help people navigate the ACA.

Something tells me that is a job anymore, though.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 19:30

Bar Ran Dun: Jan 22, 2006

Several airlines and a couple of telecoms still doing it. Utah really aggressively goes after it.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 19:46

anthonypants: May 6, 2007; by Nyc_Tattoo; Dinosaur Gum

There's only one thing that can revitalize rural Oregon, http://www.pamplinmedia.com/mop/157-news/382122-270193-taco-bell-to-spice-up-molalla

# ? Dec 26, 2017 20:16

porkface: Dec 29, 2000

Mission Accomplished

# ? Dec 26, 2017 21:38

Solkanar512: Dec 28, 2006; by the sex ghost

Peachfart posted:

What are you going to train people in distant rural suburbs to even do? It isn't like there is a desperate need for computer programmers in their town of 2000 people.

Also I need to point out that even when folks get �the correct training�, they�re still hosed getting hired due to poo poo like age discrimination and �culture fit�.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 22:05

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

Solkanar512 posted:

Also I need to point out that even when folks get �the correct training�, they�re still hosed getting hired due to poo poo like age discrimination and �culture fit�.

They need to follow the strategies used by the trades, use internships/apprenticeships to give people a foot in the door. I'm a big fan of ADA because they use this model, though I imagine it could work for any industry.

# ? Dec 26, 2017 23:18

porkface: Dec 29, 2000

Solkanar512 posted:

Also I need to point out that even when folks get �the correct training�, they�re still hosed getting hired due to poo poo like age discrimination and �culture fit�.

Good thing we outlawed those things!

# ? Dec 26, 2017 23:24

Solkanar512: Dec 28, 2006; by the sex ghost

ElCondemn posted:

They need to follow the strategies used by the trades, use internships/apprenticeships to give people a foot in the door. I'm a big fan of ADA because they use this model, though I imagine it could work for any industry.

Maybe your industry could just quit assuming that the only good candidates are 30 yr old white men?

# ? Dec 27, 2017 16:47

Space Gopher: Jul 31, 2006; BLITHERING IDIOT AND HARDCORE DURIAN APOLOGIST. LET ME TELL YOU WHY THIS SHIT DON'T STINK EVEN THOUGH WE ALL KNOW IT DOES BECAUSE I'M SUPER CULTURED.

ElCondemn posted:

They need to follow the strategies used by the trades, use internships/apprenticeships to give people a foot in the door. I'm a big fan of ADA because they use this model, though I imagine it could work for any industry.

There are some good things about apprenticeship programs - like making employers assume some of the cost and risk of training an employee in their specialized field - but it won't solve discriminatory hiring practices. It just puts another gateway in place, and if there's racist bias there (like there is in a lot of trade unions, unfortunately) then people who are a bad "culture fit" won't ever get in to the apprenticeship program.

# ? Dec 27, 2017 17:09

porkface: Dec 29, 2000

Solkanar512 posted:

Maybe your industry could just quit assuming that the only good candidates are 30 yr old white men?

Oh boy if I were in charge we would be more diverse but man there's just nothing I can do about it, sorry.

# ? Dec 27, 2017 18:01

ElCondemn: Aug 7, 2005

porkface posted:

Oh boy if I were in charge we would be more diverse but man there's just nothing I can do about it, sorry.

Programs like ADA are designed to combat this exact problem. I've been working to introduce more companies to their program and others like it, not sure what else I can do other than promote diversity (especially women and people of color like myself) through hiring reform in the city I live. Not that I have much say but I am part of the hiring cycle so it's the best I can do.

# ? Dec 27, 2017 19:00

anthonypants: May 6, 2007; by Nyc_Tattoo; Dinosaur Gum

Turns out we don't have to spend any money on infrastructure, https://twitter.com/OregonGovBrown/status/946431020558991361

# ? Dec 28, 2017 18:31

therobit: Aug 19, 2008; I've been tryin' to speak with you for a long time

anthonypants posted:

Turns out we don't have to spend any money on infrastructure, https://twitter.com/OregonGovBrown/status/946431020558991361

She is the most tone deaf of idiots.

# ? Dec 28, 2017 18:38

SeXTcube: Jan 1, 2009

Oregon: the best of the worst.

# ? Dec 28, 2017 18:50

Javid: Oct 21, 2004

We do have the smoothest interstate road surfaces. A lot of other states just don't give a gently caress and their highways look a munitions testing range. Doesn't mean we're not deficient in other ways.

# ? Dec 28, 2017 18:58

JohnnySavs: Dec 28, 2004; I have all the characteristics of a human being.

The drive over Hood down to Bend is pretty smooth sailing, however a trip up 82nd avenue risks trashing your suspension and blowing out a tire, so where you are in the state probably colors things. #3 in transportation sounds impossible - I wonder what their methodology is.

Doing great!

# ? Dec 28, 2017 19:22

anthonypants: May 6, 2007; by Nyc_Tattoo; Dinosaur Gum

#36 in crime what the hell

# ? Dec 28, 2017 19:27

The Unlife Aquatic: Jun 17, 2009; Here in my car
I feel safest of all
I can lock all my doors
It's the only way to live
In cars

Before you laugh at the education ranking I encourage you to remember the deep south and the midwest exist.

# ? Dec 28, 2017 19:28

tk: Dec 10, 2003; Nap Ghost

I have a hard time believing that 95% of the population in Washington has > 100mbps internet connections now, let alone in 2014.

# ? Dec 28, 2017 19:33

anthonypants: May 6, 2007; by Nyc_Tattoo; Dinosaur Gum

The Unlife Aquatic posted:

Before you laugh at the education ranking I encourage you to remember the deep south and the midwest exist.

They've also been investing heavily in private/chartered schools, which use different metrics than public schools, so that's not necessarily a good comparison.

# ? Dec 28, 2017 19:39

JohnnySavs: Dec 28, 2004; I have all the characteristics of a human being.

tk posted:

I have a hard time believing that 95% of the population in Washington has > 100mbps internet connections now, let alone in 2014.

Is that "could have 100mbps+ if money were no object"? As in you could have it should you elect to build a fiber line to your home?

# ? Dec 28, 2017 19:51

anthonypants: May 6, 2007; by Nyc_Tattoo; Dinosaur Gum

JohnnySavs posted:

Is that "could have 100mbps+ if money were no object"? As in you could have it should you elect to build a fiber line to your home?

I think it's more likely they asked Comcast and Comcast told them that >100Mbps internet was available at ~95% of residential locations. See also this article from 2015.

# ? Dec 28, 2017 19:57

therobit: Aug 19, 2008; I've been tryin' to speak with you for a long time

I don't buy the number for education. We are nearly the worst in the country for high school graduation rates.

# ? Dec 28, 2017 20:04

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# ? May 11, 2024 15:19

Ardennes: May 12, 2002

therobit posted:

I don't buy the number for education. We are nearly the worst in the country for high school graduation rates.

We also have some of the largest class sizes in the country (almost certainly the two are linked).

Maybe it is simply from test scores where Oregon is usually fairly middling, but there are plenty of ways to game those statistics.

Also, parts of the 26 and the 205 are pretty much gravel at this point, and congestion is very clearly out of control (26/217/405/5/84 etc are jammed on weekdays).

# ? Dec 28, 2017 20:14

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Pacific Northwest Thread Mk. II: Crossing the Duwamish

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