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Faffel posted:Being No One isn't a book about ideology, it's an attempt to making a first step in bridging the gap between neuroscience and philosophy as an approach to an overall theory of mind or some bullshit. That's why I ain't reading it because like 75% of it is pretty impenetrable unless you really care. I guess it's ideological but it's not supposed to be prescribing ideology. What's roundabout about being dead?
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Dec 31, 2017 02:13
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Faffel posted:I have a hard time with the SOMA thing because, frankly, who gives a poo poo about whether you are not the specific consciousness? If you're not around anymore and the thing walking around is you, then it's you. I just don't understand the fear or hang up. I loved the game but I just did not find the consciousness thing to even be a issue worth thinking twice about. Shame I'm too dumb to read Being No One and then could copy paste things about static consciousness being a bit silly anyway. People are weird and I don't get it either. But for what it's worth, I agree: It's got everything about me I care about, it's for all purposes that I actually value it's me enough so who cares? And I think that's actually an attitude reflected by several people in the game so that was nice. It's not the only question the game asks though and it's thankfully not the core theme or philosophical point of the game and there are plenty of other interesting questions it raises. I think the stuff arising from the one major choice you make during the game - to kill WAU or let it live and continue its work - was the best. Groovelord Neato posted:because you're dead, dummy. Yeah but it doesn't come with any of the parts that make death bad, dummy
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Dec 31, 2017 02:57
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most people would have a meltdown if you gave them irrefutable proof they weren't actually who they thought they were. it's how normal people react.
Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 03:03 on Dec 31, 2017 |
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Dec 31, 2017 02:59
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GlyphGryph posted:People are weird and I don't get it either. But for what it's worth, I agree: It's got everything about me I care about, it's for all purposes that I actually value it's me enough so who cares? And I think that's actually an attitude reflected by several people in the game so that was nice. You're dead, having something else with your memories doesn't make you any less dead. You still experience death even if a robot with your brain is still walking around.
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Dec 31, 2017 03:04
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It's pretty similar to the quantum suicide problem too isn't it? Or the star trek teleporter issue, for another perspective.
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Dec 31, 2017 03:09
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i feel like some of you missed the big thing behind the idea of the brains being copied sometimes you're the one left behind
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Dec 31, 2017 03:10
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Johnny Joestar posted:i feel like some of you missed the big thing behind the idea of the brains being copied The problem is that it's not really possible from our outside perspective to determine if you're the one being left behind. For all we know, everyone gets "left behind" because they're just making a copy and there's no consciousness transfer. When we were stuck in Simon's body at the end, it was because our perspective as the player didn't go along with the transfer. We were simply experiencing what every Simon really experienced, including the original. Of course, there's no way for us to know for sure without putting ourselves through this ourselves. I actually suffer from a severe fear of death, specifically the idea of oblivion, and so I tend not to play SOMA or even watch LPs much because it just hits me a little too hard and panic attacks suck.
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Dec 31, 2017 03:26
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Faffel posted:Being No One isn't a book about ideology Cool, neither is anything Berkeley wrote, read Berkeley and learn how materialism is an incoherent philosophy
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Dec 31, 2017 05:05
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The Vosgian Beast posted:Cool, neither is anything Berkeley wrote, read Berkeley and learn how materialism is an incoherent philosophy I'd rather masturbate physically
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Dec 31, 2017 05:07
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Faffel posted:I'd rather masturbate physically Okay, but know that god is always watching you, as you will find out if you read Berkeley
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Dec 31, 2017 05:14
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Improbable Lobster posted:You're dead, having something else with your memories doesn't make you any less dead. You still experience death even if a robot with your brain is still walking around. "all thats left is someone else with your memories and mannerisms and thoughts and dreams and relationships" means that all thats left is, like, the vast bulk of me? As far as deaths go the kind that leaves all the parts of me I am attached intact seems weird to worry about. That could literally be happening right now, every second, and what would it matter? gently caress it basically IS happening right now - the person I was when i started writing this is forever consigned to the past and dead, and the me that is right now writing THIS has new and different thoughts and experiences and memories and poo poo. And I forgot poo poo since then too! Death is continous - and frankly the death we are talking about here doesnt seem half as bad as getting put under general anesthesia where I literally stop existing for several hours. Now THAT poo poo is frightening. I just dont get it. Its like you are defining death as some weird and funky metaphysical spiritual sentimentality thing, because i dont see how i can be dead if literally every part of me I care about remains intact and continuing on. Also in the SOMA situation where you dont even have anyone die, you just bifurcate your future with two living versions. A teleporter it aint. GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 05:20 on Dec 31, 2017 |
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Dec 31, 2017 05:15
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GlyphGryph posted:"all thats left is someone else with your memories and mannerisms and thoughts and dreams and relationships" means that all thats left is, like, the vast bulk of me? As far as deaths go the kind that leaves all the parts of me I am attached intact seems weird to worry about. When you die you are dead. Someone else also having your memories doesn't mean that you did not die. There's no continuity of consciousness or thought, because you are have died. A digital copy of your mind doesn't do anything for the dead body that your dead brain is in because you have died.
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Dec 31, 2017 05:40
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GlyphGryph posted:"all thats left is someone else with your memories and mannerisms and thoughts and dreams and relationships" means that all thats left is, like, the vast bulk of me? As far as deaths go the kind that leaves all the parts of me I am attached intact seems weird to worry about. I wish I could copy you and then kill you to show you what we're talking about. 
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Dec 31, 2017 05:41
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That is to say that unless you don't list "continuity of consciousness" as part of "literally every part of me I care" then having a robot mind running around does not help you because that copy has a different consciousness.
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Dec 31, 2017 05:43
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If I can make a copy of myself a la SOMA and then watch it gently caress my wife and not feel anything in my dick while it's happening (besides a wiggle), then that thing is no longer the "me" that is currently occupying my meat-space and is in fact something else entirely. If I then kill that doppelganger in a fit of passion and do not die when he dies, then that thing is not me and is in fact something else entirely. Cream-of-Plenty fucked around with this message at 05:48 on Dec 31, 2017 |
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Dec 31, 2017 05:45
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If I can sit two clones down in a room and tell them I'm only going to kill one of them--no more, no less--and they try convincing me to kill the other one, then they are not the same person.  If I can pick a card--any card--and quietly memorize it, but my copy doesn't know which card I picked even though I totally just thought about it in my head, then we are not the same person.
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Dec 31, 2017 05:53
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And that is mundane and not horrific. That's why that plotline in SOMA was so unengaging.Improbable Lobster posted:When you die you are dead. Someone else also having your memories doesn't mean that you did not die. There's no continuity of consciousness or thought, because you are have died. A digital copy of your mind doesn't do anything for the dead body that your dead brain is in because you have died. If you die and there is a perfect clone of your consciousness that believes it's you and experiences events based off that, then that's equivalent to waking up in the morning. You would never be able to tell the difference without a second consciousness. I fail to see how that isn't a straight continuation of your consciousness. To the you it would be a straight continuation of your consciousness. Faffel fucked around with this message at 05:58 on Dec 31, 2017 |
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Dec 31, 2017 05:55
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Faffel posted:And that is mundane and not horrific. That's why that plotline in SOMA was so unengaging. It is not because the original you is still you and is still dead. If you get torn apart by dogs and die horribly you're still loving dead even if you put your brain in a computer an hour before. You still experience being ripped apart by dogs. You still loving die.
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Dec 31, 2017 06:04
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Faffel posted:And that is mundane and not horrific. That's why that plotline in SOMA was so unengaging. Oh sorry I didn't realize we were using an altruistic robot's definition of horror and not a normal human being's. Wait is Faffel the WAU? Cream-of-Plenty fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Dec 31, 2017 |
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Dec 31, 2017 06:05
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Improbable Lobster posted:It is not because the original you is still you and is still dead. If you get torn apart by dogs and die horribly you're still loving dead even if you put your brain in a computer an hour before. You still experience being ripped apart by dogs. You still loving die. Yeah if you die you die. That's true. But from your perspective, you'll always be you and the concept of being afraid of a divergent you just seems retarded. No matter what the situation is, the actual status of your consciousness will not matter to you because you just wouldn't know. At least that's certainly how it would seem to me. You could have your personality changed overnight by brain damage and you'll act completely differently, but you'd never know for yourself because you think you're you, with no break or change in conscious perception. Faffel fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Dec 31, 2017 |
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Dec 31, 2017 06:12
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People die when they are killed
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Dec 31, 2017 06:12
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Remember when they reveal at the end of The Prestige that Wolverine's magic trick was that-- rather than some clever illusion (also known as "smoke and mirrors" in the industry)--he was just drowning copies of himself beneath the stage? Yeah that wasn't horror.
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Dec 31, 2017 06:16
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Faffel posted:Yeah if you die you die. That's true. But from your perspective, you'll always be you and the concept of being afraid of a divergent you just seems retarded. No matter what the situation is, the actual status of your consciousness will not matter to you because you just wouldn't know. At least that's certainly how it would seem to me. You could have your personality changed overnight by brain damage and you'll act completely differently, but you'd never know for yourself because you think you're you, with no break or change in conscious perception. It's not like brain damage because you aren't loving dead.
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Dec 31, 2017 06:17
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I didn't even like SOMA but gently caress you are stupid
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Dec 31, 2017 06:18
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The Vosgian Beast posted:Okay, but know that god is always watching you, as you will find out if you read Berkeley Uh, that's WHY I do that  Improbable Lobster posted:People die when they are killed 
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Dec 31, 2017 06:21
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Improbable Lobster posted:People die when they are killed No. I write fan fiction. I am deathless; I am forever.
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Dec 31, 2017 06:21
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Improbable Lobster posted:It's not like brain damage because you aren't loving dead. The old you is dead. I liked Soma a lot 
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Dec 31, 2017 06:39
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So on a different topic that isn't dumb as gently caress, does anyone have any opinions on either Misao or Mad Father? I've never really gotten into horror RPG maker games (mostly because of too many videos popping up on youtube of Ao Oni) but I figure some of them can't be terrible, and I know those are fairly recent 'definitive' editions and most of the more well known ones like Corpse Party I've seen LP's of. So I was a bit curious on those.
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Dec 31, 2017 06:40
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Faffel posted:The old you is dead. The old you is you. And you are dead.
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Dec 31, 2017 06:42
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Whenever you see someone say that it was unrealistic that the main character in SOMA was so slow to grasp the core concept of copy and paste, remember this conversation.
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Dec 31, 2017 08:30
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Dec 31, 2017 10:21
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Imagine four teleported brains in tanks on the edge of a cliff. A fifth brain in a tank is in a junction switch box and can access a switch that will drop a trolley off the cliff onto another ten brains in tanks, two of which have extensive rap sheets. If the switch is not pulled, one of the four brains on the cliff will fall off the cliff, only to reregister under a different account name on a perfect simulation of a dead gay forum that is less dead and gay, and therefore not a perfect simulation, but don’t worry, The brain in the switch box has never heard of identity problems, the ship of Theseus, the teleporter problem, brooms, or intuition pumps in general, and finds this post both confusing and intriguing. But oh, no! These brains are through a contrivance the only brains in the world, and oh no, they’re dead, sort of! Imagine being dead. How horrific. Like, if it’s a phobia of yours I can respect that it may be personally impactful, but it’s not a well-crafted narrative and it’s entirely rehashing a collection of very, very old questions in philosophy that have had everything wrung out of them for decades. Talos Principle actually had more interesting things to say. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 10:57 on Dec 31, 2017 |
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Dec 31, 2017 10:34
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Discendo Vox posted:Imagine four teleported brains in tanks on the edge of a cliff. A fifth brain in a tank is in a junction switch box and can access a switch that will drop a trolley off the cliff onto another ten brains in tanks, two of which have extensive rap sheets. If the switch is not pulled, one of the four brains on the cliff will fall off the cliff, only to reregister under a different account name on a perfect simulation of a dead gay forum that is less dead and gay, and therefore not a perfect simulation, but don’t worry, Oh I know this one. The surgeon is the brain's mother.
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Dec 31, 2017 11:31
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Discendo Vox posted:Imagine four teleported brains in tanks on the edge of a cliff. A fifth brain in a tank is in a junction switch box and can access a switch that will drop a trolley off the cliff onto another ten brains in tanks, two of which have extensive rap sheets. If the switch is not pulled, one of the four brains on the cliff will fall off the cliff, only to reregister under a different account name on a perfect simulation of a dead gay forum that is less dead and gay, and therefore not a perfect simulation, but don’t worry, (Discendo Vox gazes upon his (its?) shelf with a furrowed brow. "What freshman-level philosophy book am I going to condescend and bore my family with this Christmas?")
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Dec 31, 2017 11:34
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Cream-of-Plenty posted:(Discendo Vox gazes upon his (its?) shelf with a furrowed brow. "What freshman-level philosophy book am I going to condescend and bore my family with this Christmas?") Either’s fine. My point is that this is what the game is doing, and why it’s divisive. For people with any familiarity with the related philosophy question it’s based on, (which is genuinely 101 let’s use this to hook undergrads level) the whole horror hook of the game isn’t just known, it’s boring and condescending . And it was a copy of Bullfinch ‘s Mythology this year. Discendo Vox fucked around with this message at 11:50 on Dec 31, 2017 |
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Dec 31, 2017 11:44
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Discendo Vox posted:Either’s fine. My point is that this is what the game is doing, and why it’s divisive. For people with any familiarity with the related philosophy question it’s based on, (which is genuinely 101 let’s use this to hook undergrads level) the whole horror hook of the game isn’t just known, it’s boring and condescending . Don't sign your posts
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Dec 31, 2017 12:04
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discworld is all I read posted:So on a different topic that isn't dumb as gently caress, does anyone have any opinions on either Misao or Mad Father? I've never really gotten into horror RPG maker games (mostly because of too many videos popping up on youtube of Ao Oni) but I figure some of them can't be terrible, and I know those are fairly recent 'definitive' editions and most of the more well known ones like Corpse Party I've seen LP's of. So I was a bit curious on those. Mad Father was pretty disappointing to me, but I can't really describe why. Witch's House and Ib are your best bets for RPGMaker horror games.
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Dec 31, 2017 12:31
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Hey horror game forum posters, I’m looking to get spooked this evening via horror video games and I’ve seen that observer and outlast 2 are sale on psn. I know there pretty different kind of scares but is one vastly superior to the other? Should I just shut up and get both? I enjoyed what I played of outlast 1 and I’m a big blade runner nerd. Thanks!
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Dec 31, 2017 13:08
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Outlast 2 was pretty terrible honestly, the plot is worse and basically all hinges on a throwaway detail you only know from a minor memo in the first game, the game feels like it drags on too long, the violence is worse than the first because it's just so excessive even compared to the first and never stops, so it desensitizes you incredibly fast, it has a lot of really lovely sexual violence/child abuse used for shlock horror.
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Dec 31, 2017 13:20
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discworld is all I read posted:So on a different topic that isn't dumb as gently caress, does anyone have any opinions on either Misao or Mad Father? I've never really gotten into horror RPG maker games (mostly because of too many videos popping up on youtube of Ao Oni) but I figure some of them can't be terrible, and I know those are fairly recent 'definitive' editions and most of the more well known ones like Corpse Party I've seen LP's of. So I was a bit curious on those. they're basically spooky themed puzzle games. I don't find them that scary but they're decently fun.
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Dec 31, 2017 13:21
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