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Vladimir Putin posted:Also you have to factor in that anybody willing to pay those ridiculous prices is doing so for their children. I know I would have never bought a house if I didn’t have kids. And guess what? Healthcare for them is about $1000 a month and daycare is $2000 a month. So add that to your mortgage and you’re basically loft with very little when you factor in property taxes, mortgage, income taxes etc... I’d push back on that. Buying a house for the schools when you live in a city with famously bad education standards is what you would do if housing was affordable. I can’t imagine people doing it anywhere but east of the Anacostia, and the schools here are the kind of poster child for charter schools as last resort. There’s other reasons someone buys a home. Wife wants to own, couple wants a dog, hard to have a fire pit in an efficiency, etc.
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Jan 2, 2018 05:55
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FuturePastNow posted:
white labor aristocrats should get the JDPON treatment unironically.
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Jan 2, 2018 05:58
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Your Boy Fancy posted:I’d push back on that. Buying a house for the schools when you live in a city with famously bad education standards is what you would do if housing was affordable. I can’t imagine people doing it anywhere but east of the Anacostia, and the schools here are the kind of poster child for charter schools as last resort. In a lot of places, once you're looking at more than two bedrooms the supply of apartments is so low that you pretty much have to look at houses instead/as well, and since the people you'd be renting them from are paying mortgage and property taxes and passing that plus a markup on to you, well...can you cobble together 5% down? How about 3%?
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Jan 2, 2018 05:58
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Bicyclops posted:Please stick to board games when explaining the tax deductions. Everyone who makes above the poverty line is a fascist. Hillary Clinton is Secret Hitler.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:00
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What is even happening anymore in this thread, and why are we making GBS threads it up like it's USPOL?
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Jan 2, 2018 06:01
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TheScott2K posted:Virginia has a state income tax. Of 5.75% In order to pay $5500 in state income tax you need to earn over six figures, at which point you're getting a significant federal tax deduction from federal rate cuts anyway. Do you want me to crank through the math to find the point at which the SALT deduction cap finally balances out the federal rate cuts, and if I do will you concede your example or will you just find another reason to handwave and insist it doesn't feel true.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:03
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Boon posted:What is even happening anymore in this thread, and why are we making GBS threads it up like it's USPOL? ViralSigns is apparently learning that states have income taxes and is furiously typing numbers into online calculators to prove that all who pay enough of them to be affected by the SALT cap are in fact not virtuous at all. Edit: speak of the devil
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Jan 2, 2018 06:04
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Bottom Liner posted:You do realize that state taxes also include income in most places right? It's not just property taxes. If you had a $110,000 a year income and a $500,000 property in Fairfax you could get to a $10,000 tax bill. The median income for that county is $104,259 per Forbes.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:05
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pkay posted:What people are saying isn't even about income. It is in relation to property taxes. That is the main loving gripe. Mainly, because property values(and taxes) differ from region to region. So the guy making 150k in the bay has to pay like 4k a month in mortgage and has an even higher property tax percentage. Do you not understand the effect that this will have on industries? It doesn't increase revenue and it simply makes states and localities with low taxes even more desirable. You know that a decent amount of those state and property taxes goes towards schools and whatnot. This issue is class warfare and it will probably backfire as more folks move to rural areas and help dems in those regions. It is still stupid however. Yeah but nobody has been able to show me an example of middle-class folks getting shafted by the cap on SALT deduction, that's the claim I'm arguing against. Although I also take issue with the claim that low taxes makes state and localities more desirable, there is plenty of evidence that it does not, have you heard of Kansas?
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Jan 2, 2018 06:06
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Boon posted:What is even happening anymore in this thread, and why are we making GBS threads it up like it's USPOL? gently caress all's happened today so the ruffians are restless.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:07
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TheScott2K posted:ViralSigns is apparently learning that states have income taxes and is furiously typing numbers into online calculators to prove that all who pay enough of them to be affected by the SALT cap are in fact not virtuous at all.  "You're trying to back up your arguments with facts from reputable sources" has to be the weakest attempt at an own I've ever seen in this thread, and I've seen some weak poo poo. This isn't about "virtue" or whatever, it's about facts and it's about whether giving a tax break to high earners who already got a significant tax break from the GOP's bill is a good idea or makes any sense as progressive policy.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:08
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VitalSigns posted:Yeah but nobody has been able to show me an example of middle-class folks getting shafted by the cap on SALT deduction, that's the claim I'm arguing against. People will pay higher taxes mainly because of the educational system in that area. If you have kids you will pay that poo poo. However, if it gets to a certain point they will just send their kids to a 'private' school and *gasp* there is a significant deduction for that in this tax bill. That is the design of this provision in this tax bill. This is why I don't like it because they are being blatantly obvious as to what they are trying to do. You seem too dense to realize that however.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:11
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Mustached Demon posted:gently caress all's happened today so the ruffians are restless. This time it kind of is true but then again it's also a stat holiday for much of the developed world so I just count my blessings that it's what it should be for the most part. Personally though I still just think people like arguing with each other more than anything even when the news is fast and it really does feel like there'd be a general consensus considering most if not all people in this thread ultimately lean closer to the left on social and political values. It is the internet after all. Kale fucked around with this message at 06:15 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 06:12
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VitalSigns posted:Of 5.75% Welcome to the Knowing About State Income Taxes Club! Now what you do is you take your Virtuous Citizen Maximum, and add that to the property taxes one would pay. In the example I posted earlier, a $325000 house (actually, condo or townhouse, and it's gonna be small) will have a yearly property tax bill in Fairfax County of $5655 a year. So, for someone paying a mortgage on that to be affected by a $10k SALT cap, ignoring personal property tax for vehicles (which helps my case to the tune of about $1000), they'd make $76,500 or so. Really, though, the person paying on that mortgage probably makes more like 90 at minimum, which after payments and other cost-of-living-tastic bills still leaves that family with fewer discretionary dollars than before they had to move to Fairfax. And now they're paying higher taxes thanks solely to this new cap. The SALT cap can indeed tighten the noose around people who are already fighting to live paycheck to paycheck. And no, "don't live where the jobs in your field are" is not the answer.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:12
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Kale posted:This time it kind of is true but then again it's also a stat holiday for much of the developed world so I just my blessings that it's what it should be for the most part. Personally I still just think people like arguing with each other more than anything. It is the internet after all. Trump probably shot a 17 or something but that's really it.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:14
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Dmitri-9 posted:If you had a $110,000 a year income and a $500,000 property in Fairfax you could get to a $10,000 tax bill. The median income for that county is $104,259 per Forbes. Still a significant overall tax reduction for that situation, according to the Washington Post  In fact according to them it's impossible to have a higher tax bill in 2018 in Virginia until you crack $220k no matter how high your SALT deductions. Imma guess this won't matter to the "but it doesn't feel true" crowd. TheScott2K posted:Welcome to the Knowing About State Income Taxes Club! Now what you do is you take your Virtuous Citizen Maximum, and add that to the property taxes one would pay. In the example I posted earlier, a $325000 house (actually, condo or townhouse, and it's gonna be small) will have a yearly property tax bill in Fairfax County of $5655 a year. So, for someone paying a mortgage on that to be affected by a $10k SALT cap, ignoring personal property tax for vehicles, they'd make $76,500 or so. Really, though, the person paying on that mortgage probably makes more like 90 at minimum, which after payments and other cost-of-living-tastic bills still leaves that family with fewer discretionary dollars than before they had to move to Fairfax. And now they're paying higher taxes thanks solely to this new cap.. No, they are not paying higher taxes, according to the Washington Post. They are just not.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:14
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I think half the people currently defending Trump's tax plan in this thread don't realize that's what they're doing. Similarly, half the people currently defending making up new tax cuts for fairly affluent people don't realize that's what they're doing.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:15
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Mustached Demon posted:Trump probably shot a 17 or something but that's really it. Actually now it seems like he's angry at Pakistan or something with the usual shtick about the super most unfairest deal to have ever been struck for the United States but that's as far as I got with it as he seemed to just forget about it for the rest of the day. No doubt another reaction tweet to something that happened on Fox & Friends. After that there was something about going from Florida to D.C to do "much work" but I just took at as him being insecure again because I don't ever recall a President or Congressperson needing to constantly reassure the public that they're doing important things like they have something to hide or are defensive about. Kale fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 06:16
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Petr posted:Similarly, half the people currently defending making up new tax cuts for fairly affluent people don't realize that's what they're doing. Is "what we had two weeks ago was somewhat less terrible" really "defending making up new tax cuts?"
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Jan 2, 2018 06:16
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Boon posted:What is even happening anymore in this thread, and why are we making GBS threads it up like it's USPOL? One more year of harm, atleast three years until anyyhung good happens, withdrawl from the international institutions we founded. Shits going to get worse, it might break.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:26
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I'm okay with paying taxes, and I'm okay with paying more taxes to help more people. I want everyone that needs help to get it, and I want to be a part of helping them. I worry that soon my elderly parents will be unable to take care of themselves, and I will be unable to afford getting them care. I don't think rich people ever have to worry about something like that. I think the focus should be on taxing most heavily the people that make absurd amounts of money, billions, hundreds of millions, tens of millions. The kind of money that's incomprehensible to the vast majority of our society. Everyone gets taxed, but I think it makes no sense to endlessly argue about the taxation of people below that group. Trump will tweet again soon and you can all argue about that for a while instead.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:27
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BrandorKP posted:atleast three years until anyyhung good happens seven
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Jan 2, 2018 06:30
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Petr posted:seven your gimmick is getting old
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Jan 2, 2018 06:32
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Dick Trauma posted:I'm okay with paying taxes, and I'm okay with paying more taxes to help more people. I want everyone that needs help to get it, and I want to be a part of helping them. I agree about the billionaires, but this "oh let's not argue about it" is a little weird because people are actually pushing for more tax breaks for high earners. It's a bit strange to insist on more tax cuts and more starvation of federal revenue but as soon as anyone questions the wisdom or the supporting reasoning suddenly we're all "oh no no, it makes no sense to argue about this at all, so let's just do it without any distracting discussion." Like, no? $100k earners are already getting a fat tax break which is only partially offset by a deduction cap, so if they want that cake too then I think we need to talk about it?
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Jan 2, 2018 06:35
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I'm not asking for tax cuts. I don't want a tax cut. I want the focus to be on collecting more of the disgusting wealth at the top of the pyramid, not on finding a way for the rest of us to hate one another.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:38
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Bottom Liner posted:your gimmick is getting old It's not a gimmick, it's a strongly-held personal belief.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:42
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Dick Trauma posted:I'm not asking for tax cuts. I don't want a tax cut. I want the focus to be on collecting more of the disgusting wealth at the top of the pyramid, not on finding a way for the rest of us to hate one another. Right but I think that's the problem, that rather than focusing on collecting the disgusting wealth on top of the pyramid, Democratic states are looking for ways to give more tax cuts to HENRYs. So I don't think the people saying "whoa hey why are we talking about cutting federal revenue even more to give even more money to people who don't need it" are the problem here, the problem is the people trying to do that stuff rather than say raising state income and corporate taxes on the rich to counteract the federal tax cuts and use that money to fund state services.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:44
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Petr posted:I think half the people currently defending Trump's tax plan in this thread don't realize that's what they're doing. Wrong. Getting around the SALT deduction cap is not about cutting anyone's taxes, it's about restoring lost federal contributions to blue state budgets.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:45
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LITERALLY MY FETISH posted:What even is HENRY, what'd I miss in my self imposed exile from this thread and most politics for a week?
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Jan 2, 2018 06:47
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pkay posted:People will pay higher taxes mainly because of the educational system in that area. If you have kids you will pay that poo poo. However, if it gets to a certain point they will just send their kids to a 'private' school and *gasp* there is a significant deduction for that in this tax bill. That is the design of this provision in this tax bill. This is why I don't like it because they are being blatantly obvious as to what they are trying to do. You seem too dense to realize that however. Sending kids to a private school doesn't exempt you from paying property taxes, those people will just pay twice. Unless the state in question has a dumbshit charter school program that pays private school tuition by taking from public schools in which case uh the state should stop that? Or better yet end the discriminatory and unequal system of funding nice schools for rich people with local property taxes while poor kids get hosed, and just use the income tax to mandate equal funding per student at all public schools. But oddly, no one wants to talk about real solutions, they only want to talk about high earner tax deductions 
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Jan 2, 2018 06:52
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Ogmius815 posted:Wrong. Getting around the SALT deduction cap is not about cutting anyone's taxes, it's about restoring lost federal contributions to blue state budgets. No that's not how the deduction cap works. The SALT deduction does not affect blue state budgets at all, provided said blue states don't cater to the rich by deliberately cutting state taxes to offset the imposition of the cap. Frankly the SALT deduction doesn't make any sense to me. We all have an obligation to contribute to the federal government and I don't see any good argument for reducing someone's obligation based on their decision to live in a high tax state with robust infrastructure, education, and services (and those services are pretty much always the reason that person was able to make a high enough income to affected by the cap in the first place sooooo)
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Jan 2, 2018 06:56
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There's more than a little tension between believing property tax hikes could not possibly affect anyone we care about and believing Obama was terrible for black wealth because he didn't re-inflate the housing bubble fast enough.
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Jan 2, 2018 07:05
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JeffersonClay posted:There's more than a little tension between believing property tax hikes could not possibly affect anyone we care about and believing Obama was terrible for black wealth because he didn't re-inflate the housing bubble fast enough. What. The tax bill isn't a property tax hike, it's a cap on deductions which can affect people whose property taxes, combined with other state and local taxes, are already above the $10,000 threshold. And whether it affects anyone we "care" about is an empirical question (given a reasonably specific definition of people whose tax rates we care about), not a conclusion that changes randomly subject to rhetorical gotchas. "Ah but you criticized Obama for something unrelated" has no bearing on the underlying fact that the SALT deduction cap doesn't result in an overall tax increase until you start to get into the territory of households without children who make over $200,000 a year.
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Jan 2, 2018 07:24
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if the trump thread stays like this after the holidays are over, please kill us all
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Jan 2, 2018 07:36
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VitalSigns posted:Sending kids to a private school doesn't exempt you from paying property taxes, those people will just pay twice. Send kids to private school, move to rural county with low property taxes. They can buy that McMansion out in the middle of nowhere for the same or lower price, while paying lower property taxes. Basically, all most people are saying is you are punishing places that already have higher than average taxes. Most of these places tend to be blue leaning regions. It makes local and state tax hikes in those areas garner less support. People will talk about real solutions, but you seem unwilling to see what the current situation is. You have a President and Education secretary dead set on privatizing our educational system. This is a way to incentivize this poo poo. So poor kids get hosed even harder and the 'rich' kids still receive top-notch education only from a private institution instead of a public one. Also, this 10k cap doesn't account for inflation so the longer it is in place the more 'rich' people are effected. Like what do you think will happen when another housing bubble happens?
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Jan 2, 2018 07:41
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pkay posted:Send kids to private school, move to rural county with low property taxes. They can buy that McMansion out in the middle of nowhere for the same or lower price, while paying lower property taxes. pkay posted:Basically, all most people are saying is you are punishing places that already have higher than average taxes. Most of these places tend to be blue leaning regions. It makes local and state tax hikes in those areas garner less support. And no it shouldn't affect support for tax hikes in those areas because >90% of people are unaffected, the only way it would affect tax rates is if Democratic state government sell out to the wealthy and cut taxes to help their rich friends rather than do something to help the poor oh right yeah good point as long as Dems keep chasing the Panera Bread vote then this is a problem, guess what the fix is. pkay posted:People will talk about real solutions, but you seem unwilling to see what the current situation is. You have a President and Education secretary dead set on privatizing our educational system. This is a way to incentivize this poo poo. So poor kids get hosed even harder and the 'rich' kids still receive top-notch education only from a private institution instead of a public one. Cue "no I don't want to, so now that I'm perpetuating this self-created problem, our only choice is more tax cuts for the rich". pkay posted:Also, this 10k cap doesn't account for inflation so the longer it is in place the more 'rich' people are effected. Like what do you think will happen when another housing bubble happens? Yeah this is true and you are correct although it's actually a minor problem compared to the real long-term problem of this tax bill: the 2024 expiration of the poor and middle class tax cuts in order to pay for permanent corporate cuts, combined with the elimination of personal exemption will result in a huge tax hike for the bottom 99% long before inflation starts to capture significant numbers of people with the SALT deduction. I'm not sure the SALT deduction makes sense, personally. If high-rear end property taxes are pricing poor people out of their homes, they'd benefit more from reforms or a higher exemption at the state level rather than a federal tax deduction which isn't useful to poor people who have low rates and generally don't itemize anyway. If state income taxes are crushing the poor and middle class then the problem is wealth distribution and not the fairly low state tax rates. If rich people are defunding public schools and sending their kids to private schools end the state policies that subsidize this oh my god. I really don't see a good argument for reducing someone's federal tax obligation to fund the federal government they benefit from just because they also benefit from a well-funded state government and infrastructure that makes it possible for them to earn six figgies anyway. But okay, if we have to have an exemption for SALT, keeping it at a reasonable level like $10,000 and indexing to inflation makes sense so while we're fixing the 2024 expiration of the middle class tax cuts we could go ahead and index the SALT deduction to inflation as well, sure, that makes sense. Returning to unlimited deductions nah that's just a handout to the wealthy. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 08:03
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It'd be pretty sweet if we could all argue for pages about the specific ways this tax bill REALLY sucks while calling for guillotines all around. The bill sucks, it's a flagrant looting of this country by the rich. The worst part is the repeal of the individual mandate for the ACA which will demonstrably cost millions their healthcare which will translate to many more medical bankruptcies and deaths due to inability to pay for medically necessary (but not exactly immediately life saving) procedures.
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Jan 2, 2018 08:18
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RandomBlue posted:It'd be pretty sweet if we could all argue for pages about the specific ways this tax bill REALLY sucks while calling for guillotines all around. I mean yeah? When people are proposing reactions to this bill that are more handouts to the rich under the guise of #resistance, while making spurious arguments based on bad data, handwaving, outright lies, and temporarily-embarassed-millionaire reasoning that they're just one certificate away from pulling down $200k in Fairfax County and then they'll be the ones benefiting from the Democratic Party's turn to the rich, it's probably worthwhile to make an argument against bad policy and debunk the bad reasoning being trotted out to support more tax cuts?
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Jan 2, 2018 08:24
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This poo poo is stupid. Like all you solutions are predicated on not being able to observe the current realities of the situation we are in. You analyze poo poo in a vacuum and generally come up with terrible conclusions. You have a tax bill which cuts deductions for poo poo that pays for public schools and also gives a tax credit for private schools. Are you blind? Do you not see what this incentivizes and what its intent is? Maybe this will help you understand? https://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/education/2017/12/21/donald-trump-private-school-tax-break/919204001/
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Jan 2, 2018 08:25
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pkay posted:This poo poo is stupid. Like all you solutions are predicated on not being able to observe the current realities of the situation we are in. You analyze poo poo in a vacuum and generally come up with terrible conclusions. You have a tax bill which cuts deductions for poo poo that pays for public schools and also gives a tax credit for private schools. Are you blind? Do you not see what this incentivizes and what its intent is? States can completely neutralize this by simply mandating equal per-pupil funding to all public schools statewide. They don't want to do this because the wealthy control even blue states and the wealthy want to keep all the money in their own schools while loving poor kids, and the GOP is taking advantage of this to push more of the same. As long as blue state governments refuse to commit to having an equitable public school funding system, this trend will not be arrested and these problems will not be solved. This conversation with you is like liberalism.txt "This bill is helping the rich loot the public school system by incentivizing them to cut local property taxes and send the money to private schools  ""Uh okay, this is a great reason to stop funding schools with local property taxes, which we should be fighting to do anyway, and emulate countries with egalitarian education systems that don't depend on winning the vagina lottery with rich parents" "What no are you crazy, just give me a tax cut, and keep poor kids' hands off my property taxes."
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Jan 2, 2018 08:33
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