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self unaware posted:
Circular reasoning in this instance.
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Jan 10, 2018 20:56
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Ze Pollack posted:jeff bezos is not going to save you. It was a joke post
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Jan 10, 2018 20:56
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Just LOL if you think for one loving second that any technological advancements or scientific discoveries made by Elon Musk or those that he employs will ever be shared with anybody that isn't Elon Musk, one of his employees or one of his customers.
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Jan 10, 2018 20:56
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Just LOL if you think for one loving second that any technological advancements or scientific discoveries made by Elon Musk or those that he employs will ever be shared with anybody that isn't Elon Musk, one of his employees or one of his customers. Musk already donated all the Tesla patents to public domain? I feel like I'm being pushed into becoming a Musk defender by the poor quality of the anti-Musk arguments, step up your game folks edit: the better version of your argument is that all Musk's charitable endeavors have been ultimately self-serving marketing stunts Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 20:58
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People always put a weird priority on being like double extra mad at rich people that own visible companies that make particular products (usually especially if they dislike the product) vs the rich people that own the sort of giant conglomerates and investment schemes that actually hurt society most.
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Jan 10, 2018 20:58
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I feel like I'm being pushed into becoming a Musk defender by the poor quality of the anti-Musk arguments, step up your game folks i feel like you were already a musk defender and you're the only one here surprised by it but please, keep defending the guy who busts unions and exploits his workforce using his fortune gained by working at paypal
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Jan 10, 2018 21:02
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Lightning Knight posted:I agree that it's not actually a fair or equal comparison, I was just bringing up that as a matter of perspective, many of us are ludicrously rich compared to the international poor. It's more about how thoroughly unjust the global economic system is, not just how unjust it is for people in the developed world. That's true, though I don't think your random working class person in the US is quite as ludicrously rich compared with people elsewhere as the straight dollar numbers indicate (due to there also be a much higher cost of living). I mean, they're still much better off, don't get me wrong, but it's not quite the "literally 20 times better off" or whatever that the dollar values might indicate sometimes. And they still often have zero or negative net worth. Like, using just incomes makes the US working class seem better off than the working class in some other countries where they're undeniably better off due to receiving more government services and not having to spend as much on things like healthcare.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:04
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elon musk is an idiot child playing with multi-billion dollar toys and only other idiot children admire him
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Jan 10, 2018 21:04
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I like how super obvious it is that it was super important to figure out a way to hate Oprah for some reason ahead of time if she was going to run for president and no one could come up with anything specific so "she's a rich woman" became the generic fallback. Eh, just stuff like those comments about the estate tax are enough to think "yeah this person is probably not that good," even if you ignore the whole conversation we've been having in this thread about why being rich is inherently immoral/evil. That being said, I definitely agree that it's absurd to think she's worse than Musk. edit: Like, if you absolutely had to choose a billionaire as president, I guess Oprah would be one of the better choices, but I would prefer to not have to make that choice. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 21:17 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 21:07
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Musk already donated all the Tesla patents to public domain? Where, exactly? All I find when I try to confirm this is a bunch of news articles and the blog post where Elon Musk claims to have done this, but no actual documents. And, you know, these patents: United States Patent 6,185,194 United States Patent 6,148,260 United States Patent 6,108,650 United States Patent 5,944,769 So yeah, saying "I made the patents public domain but LOL good luck finding them fuckers!" is pretty useless.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:12
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Anyone on the left-wing spectrum is at worst a confused ally. Either you have a herd instinct and care about your fellow human beings, or you don't. The left isn't really in a position right now to conduct purity purges.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:12
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Lightning Knight posted:I mean, we should strive to not live in a world where the only people trying to do meaningful technical work on space exploration aren't eccentric rear end in a top hat billionaire white boys. That’s true. I think you’d be hard pressed to say that space exploration is inherently evil, but it certainly isn’t good to not collaborate and to stake off on your own.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:16
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"Space exploration on the part of a private, profit-driven entity is inherently evil" is probably the most accurate way to put it.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:17
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Where, exactly? All I find when I try to confirm this is a bunch of news articles and the blog post where Elon Musk claims to have done this, but no actual documents. I'm no patent attorney but I'd suspect that his mere statement "I am giving these away" would be sufficient for a gift, legally. Specifically, what he's said is that anyone can use Tesla patents, without having to request permission or pay fees, anyone who goes and relies on that would seem to have a solid argument going forward. Of course this is advantageous to Tesla because it encourages the development of more electric car infrastructure, it's still self-interested, etc.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:20
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Kilroy posted:She didn't really update her position after the June elections though - she went even further down the rationalization rabbit hole. That's no longer a confused ally - that's an enemy, even if unwittingly so. I also strongly disagree with the idea that anyone "on the left-wing spectrum" is an ally of some sort. There are many people who identify as liberals who have a fundamentally different ideology that is strongly at odds with my own. They might be useful as temporary allies to address certain issues, but it's definitely wrong to think they have the same long-term goals.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:21
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:edit: the better version of your argument is that all Musk's charitable endeavors have been ultimately self-serving marketing stunts I thought that's what I said before. He's a self serving narcissist who just wants to play with cool toys and bask in personal glory. Shady Amish Terror posted:I at least feel like Oprah usually means well, even when she's unfortunately advancing the careers of woo artists. Musk is blatantly myopic. Both are definitely better than the likes of the Koch family, or Trump, or, say, Murdoch. Yet they all deserve the guillotine.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:21
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captainblastum posted:This is where it started, this is the single, simple claim that I disagree with: Given the number, yes it is. We can discuss if someone who has killed one or two individuals is evil or not. But you don't need in depth knowledge to assert that someone who directly killed hundreds is evil. Likewise, we can discuss if someone who barely made it into the top 1% is evil or not. But when you get to a billion in accumulated wealth...
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Jan 10, 2018 21:22
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Koalas March posted:Yet they all deserve the guillotine. HENRY is a harsh mistress. E: wait I just remembered what that acronym stands for w/e it's still true
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Jan 10, 2018 21:22
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Oh Snapple! posted:"Space exploration on the part of a private, profit-driven entity is inherently evil" is probably the most accurate way to put it. I think you will find that if it flipped and space exploration was publicly funded by tax dollars that the argument would be that is also a waste and really it's just spending money on space that is for some reason specifically evil and people need to spend money only on moral things like movies about space that have similar budgets to real space launches but do not require huge discussions on if they were a valid use of funds.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:26
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think you will find that if it flipped and space exploration was publicly funded by tax dollars that the argument would be that is also a waste and really it's just spending money on space that is for some reason specifically evil and people need to spend money only on moral things like movies about space that have similar budgets to real space launches but do not require huge discussions on if they were a valid use of funds. Space is mad cool though. Capitalism isn't, is all.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:27
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:People always put a weird priority on being like double extra mad at rich people that own visible companies that make particular products (usually especially if they dislike the product) vs the rich people that own the sort of giant conglomerates and investment schemes that actually hurt society most. It's almost like people in society get mad at stuff they can easily see loving them, as opposed to stuff that they are not aware of.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:27
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Ytlaya posted:I also strongly disagree with the idea that anyone "on the left-wing spectrum" is an ally of some sort. There are many people who identify as liberals who have a fundamentally different ideology that is strongly at odds with my own. They might be useful as temporary allies to address certain issues, but it's definitely wrong to think they have the same long-term goals. We have to get to the long term for that to be an issue though. Time enough for intra-left squabbling when nazis aren't walking around openly in large groups. In the present moment, if you're generally left wing, you're an ally. joepinetree posted:Given the number, yes it is. I think I'm going to refine my stance a bit to "anyone who has over a billion dollars in assets is presumptively evil." Like, maybe there's some bizarre reason they aren't (they just inherited the money five seconds ago, etc.) but there would need to be a really good explanation, and statistically speaking it's virtually certain that they are more evil than they should be.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:28
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Shady Amish Terror posted:Space is mad cool though. Actually it turns out it's uniquely sinful and all money privately or publicly spent on it should have been spent otherwise. This is not a concept you need to apply to anything else consistently, only mention it regularly for space.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:29
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I think you will find that if it flipped and space exploration was publicly funded by tax dollars that the argument would be that is also a waste and really it's just spending money on space that is for some reason specifically evil and people need to spend money only on moral things like movies about space that have similar budgets to real space launches but do not require huge discussions on if they were a valid use of funds. This whole argument is nonsense. There's a gigantic difference between Government and private industry. I'd rather have the government fund that research and labor. If he wants to fund that as a government project, fine. But again, he wants to have fun and get attention. He does not pay his employees adequately. gently caress him.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:31
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helping capitalist humanity escape its quarantine on earth is a uniquely evil act.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:33
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Actually it turns out it's uniquely sinful and all money privately or publicly spent on it should have been spent otherwise. This is not a concept you need to apply to anything else consistently, only mention it regularly for space. Counterpoint, we've been able to do it since 1975 and just haven't loving bothered. http://www.nss.org/settlement/
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Jan 10, 2018 21:33
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Shady Amish Terror posted:HENRY is a harsh mistress. Just like everyone else not in abject poverty, Jeff Bezos is merely (upper) middle class  Also never don’t post the HENRY gif: 
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Jan 10, 2018 21:35
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Musk is not really making anything about space any more private than anyone else was doing. The only reason people like him in regards to either spaceships or cars is that he is better than the largely stagnant and risk averse private companies that owned their respective industries before he showed up, and so his actions are creating useful technological leaps for doing good things like moving away from gas based vehicles and decreasing the costs of public space research through improved launch technology. You wont find many pro space people that wouldnt prefer this stuff was being done by a publicly owned organization, just people who prefer it being done by Musk and company to not being done at all. Even in terms of upstarts Musk looks good relatively speaking, since his main competition is fuckin bezos He is still ultimately an evil dude operating in an evil system though and I look forward to the day, and will actively pursue it, when he and people like him are no longer useful. He and Oprah are both pretty low on my guillotine list to be honest. But I understand people can have honest differences of opinion on which rich folk need to be the first to go and respect that
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Jan 10, 2018 21:37
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Grace Baiting posted:Just like everyone else not in abject poverty, Jeff Bezos is merely (upper) middle class That gif makes me so good loving poo poo angry. Capitalism is a disease that should be eradicated.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:37
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:Actually it turns out it's uniquely sinful and all money privately or publicly spent on it should have been spent otherwise. This is not a concept you need to apply to anything else consistently, only mention it regularly for space. Uniquely sinful, AND cool. The Kingfish posted:helping capitalist humanity escape its quarantine on earth is a uniquely evil act. This unironically, sadly. I really, really don't want humanity to go extinct in a few centuries because our dumb asses couldn't get our poo poo together well enough to protect our own loving planet, in pursuit of our own continued existence, and I really don't want people to continue to suffer and die for stupid reasons beyond their control, but if our flaws keep us from preventing self-inflicted armageddon, well, we've kind of earned it.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:38
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Koalas March posted:Lmao y'all acting like my rage against antiblackness means I'm gonna throw myself in front of the guillotine for her. But here's a secret: I'm not. You're perpetuating a lovely and racist trope that black people are a tribe who will band together just because we're both black. It's just not true. I'm not about to let anyone call Omarosa a friend of the family either and I got no love for that woman. Would you defend Diamond and Silk tho?
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Jan 10, 2018 21:47
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Oh Snapple! posted:"Space exploration on the part of a private, profit-driven entity is inherently evil" is probably the most accurate way to put it. Yeah, that’s pretty much the best way to put it. Or at least, we should presume less than optimal intent and results
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Jan 10, 2018 21:49
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:We have to get to the long term for that to be an issue though. Time enough for intra-left squabbling when nazis aren't walking around openly in large groups.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:51
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People who think money spent on scientific research and especially space research is inherently evil are pretty terrible and often loud and disingenious bullshitters but I feel like there arent all that many of those people in this thread ultimately so its not much use worrying about it
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Jan 10, 2018 21:51
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white sauce posted:Would you defend Diamond and Silk tho? Call them niggers and let's find out.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:55
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white sauce posted:Would you defend Diamond and Silk tho? Who?
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Jan 10, 2018 21:58
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=goh2x_G0ct4
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Jan 10, 2018 22:05
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:We have to get to the long term for that to be an issue though. Time enough for intra-left squabbling when nazis aren't walking around openly in large groups. Even then there are issues relevant in the present like UHC where a lot of people who consider themselves liberals are actively opposed. Like, there has to be a conflict there if you actually care about accomplishing the goal in question. Your post seems to be implying that everyone on the American left agrees about all important contemporary issues, and that simply isn't true. A lot of people who consider themselves liberals even want to do stuff that would make things worse, like cut "entitlements." Related to this, but I generally disagree with the "we should fight the right-wing now and worry about moving to the left later" attitude (not necessarily saying this is what your post is implying). It's especially goofy given that actively promoting and accomplishing good things is likely the only way to defeat the right. Like, how else would you defeat them politically? It's not like liberals hurling attacks at Republicans accomplishes anything. You have to actually accomplish positive things.
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Jan 10, 2018 22:13
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Ytlaya posted:Simply having that kind of money is evil, yes. Once a person has on the order of tens of millions of dollars or more, they're basically iredeemable (unless, of course, they give away most of that money). It's the same as a person having a button they could press that would vastly improve/save thousands of lives with basically zero negative impact to their quality of life and choosing not to press it. Anyone in that position deserves only contempt. And when you get to the level of billionaires, it's basically an evil that is almost downright incomprehensible. Not to mention what a person has to do to actually acquire such a vast amount of money. It usually involves a shitload of moral bending and breaking. Unless you stumble into it, like in say, a lottery win, usually the people who build up vast personal fortunes do not do it by being good people, especially in the system in which we live.
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Jan 10, 2018 22:33
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Ytlaya posted:I'm not sure I agree with this. It's ignoring the fact that, if you give that money away, that's a lot more money circulating among the poor/working class and would impact a lot of people. If you took a billion dollars and divided it among the poorest 10% of Americans, it's a one-time gift of around $33/person. Granted, for a lot of those people, it might be the difference between going hungry and being able to feed their family for a few days, but it's still not going to fix the problem within society itself which allows for such staggering inequality. We need to invest in schools, infrastructure, welfare, healthcare, etc. and the money required to do that is beyond what any one person, even the richest of the rich, will likely ever have. Hoping billionaires have an attack of conscience one by one is a losing strategy. Using a chunk of the fortunes of a few non-sociopathic billionaires to fund a political effort to introduce more progressive taxation and a universal basic income, has a chance of working. I mean, look at how well the Kochs and a bunch of other motherfuckers have been at convincing the Republicans to do their evil bidding.
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