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Which one was that?
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Jan 12, 2018 22:25
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CountFosco posted:Which one was that?
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Jan 12, 2018 22:32
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shame on an IGA posted:The "Ask us about freemasonry" thread around the corner is cool and good and you should all read it.
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Jan 12, 2018 22:33
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Tias posted:And for what it's worth, I've had an ex who was both a Crowley devotee( and thus into Baphomet) and a mason, and they said there was no beseechments to any entities but Adonai( understood as God of the old testament) and Gabriel in the rites.
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Jan 12, 2018 22:51
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pidan fucked around with this message at 22:16 on Mar 13, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 23:36
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pidan posted:Humanities on the other hand... Hey! 
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Jan 13, 2018 00:31
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HEY GUNS posted:there is no way to determine whether or not those people, who are probably decent human beings, are not themselves being lied to by their superiors I've heard this said about the Catholic Church, too.
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Jan 13, 2018 03:47
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i think the issue is that no one gives poo poo about freemasonry beyond getting drunk with a bunch of bougie dads and suing the dead kennedys
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Jan 13, 2018 04:08
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I hope no masons will be offended if I say I view their institution the same way as I view the labour movement and the scouts: they are admirable institutions that the growing Church should strive to render unnecessary.
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Jan 13, 2018 04:17
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whoa now
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Jan 13, 2018 04:21
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StashAugustine posted:whoa now
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Jan 13, 2018 04:29
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Mr Enderby posted:I hope no masons will be offended if I say I view their institution the same way as I view the labour movement and the scouts: they are admirable institutions that the growing Church should strive to render unnecessary. the end goal of distributism is apparently guilds so idk about making labour movements unnecessary, especially since catholic social teaching upholds that private ownership of the means of production is okay and that the solution to worker owner inequality is in having everyone own their own resources to generate wealth, which is... well, an interesting solution to say the least. guess everyone should start their own sports bars and grills anyway idk if people here would be interested but i finished the new episode of my and 13 (十三)’s podcast and it’s available at this link; https://www.podomatic.com/podcasts/smellsandbellspodcast/episodes/2018-01-12T21_53_23-08_00 it’s me essentially summarizing what info i’ve managed to research about takagi kenmyo and what i remember about romero from my education as well as some preliminary comparisons. no 13 this time. also no jokes which is weird cause i’m the one who wants to make jokes all the time like the podcast i like and whose format i stole if anyone is still interested in doing a guest spot pm me or 13 or e-mail smellsandbellspodcast@gmail.com . we still need to figure out how to record both sets of audio but figuring out schedules and preparing people for questions might take some time. our podcast response has not been great since our lack of updates but hopefully two new episodes in as many weeks might help with that
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Jan 13, 2018 07:11
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HEY GUNS posted:there is no way to determine whether or not those people, who are probably decent human beings, are not themselves being lied to by their superiors Allhierarchiesarelikethis.jpg pidan posted:sciences most people have an understanding of the limits of their method. Humanities on the other hand... Please explain this to all physicists and engineers, I think they may have missed this particular memo when it came down the pipe.
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Jan 13, 2018 08:19
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The endurance to finish reading Zizek's entire body of work is only possible through divine intervention, I can buy that hypothesis.
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Jan 13, 2018 16:36
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shame on an IGA posted:The endurance to finish reading Zizek's entire body of work is only possible through divine intervention, I can buy that hypothesis. Less divine intervention that infernal compulsion, I should think.
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Jan 13, 2018 18:12
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Josef bugman posted:Allhierarchiesarelikethis.jpg This just isn't true, not all hierarchies are "the same." Some hierarchies have more transparency than others. Some hierarchies are deliberately created to obfuscate and to occlude. When you consider that Metternich was having the mail read of everyone he could get a hold of, you can understand why some societies would want to be underground.
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Jan 13, 2018 18:50
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CountFosco posted:This just isn't true, not all hierarchies are "the same." Some hierarchies have more transparency than others. Some hierarchies are deliberately created to obfuscate and to occlude. When you consider that Metternich was having the mail read of everyone he could get a hold of, you can understand why some societies would want to be underground. Sure, but most hierarchies are specifically about funnelling more information "upward" that is part of the reason for hierarchies is because they allow for dissemination of info on a "need to know" basis. Sure some may not, but I would argue that most hierarchies are built and sustained by some level of obfuscation of responsibility and what people "really" know. Not arguing in favour of the masons, but I just think that most hierarchies deserve to be questioned. At least once every couple of years, so that things can be improved.
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Jan 13, 2018 19:11
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Yes, that is no proof at all, and you're deliberately trying to twist an ambiguous claim into proof masons are devil-worshippers. You're capable of doing better than this, dude. CountFosco posted:You can't say that with certainty, because as a secret society, they deliberately made themselves obscure to outsiders. Although they claim to be transparent now, that transparency has to be placed within the context of centuries-old lack of transparency. As I said, I had an ex that was a mason, and if you know any masons at all, you'd know your suspicions are dumb. They're boring dad types who dress up and do rituals because they're bored. That a strongly liberal secret guild makes their members hold more liberal religious positions shouldn't really surprise anyone.
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Jan 13, 2018 19:22
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Zizek's writings and movies, I find, are surprisingly sympathetic to Catholicism.
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Jan 13, 2018 19:33
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Tias posted:As I said, I had an ex that was a mason, and if you know any masons at all, you'd know your suspicions are dumb. They're boring dad types who dress up and do rituals because they're bored. My grandfather (whom I lived a 3-minute walk away from and saw every day of my childhood) was extremely into Masonry. He -never- mentioned Masonry or involved his sons in it, it was only after his death at the funeral I learned he was a high-level Mason and frequently traveled the US hanging out with other Masonic lodges in his capacity as a conservation extension representative. Basically, in his younger years (well before I was born) he did a lot of traveling to educate farmers as an official representative of our state land-grant university and hung out with the local Masonic chapters. Masons, at least as I'm familiar with them, are essentially a goofy golf club of older white men that does a lot of philanthropy. It's self-deprecating adult Boy Scouts. Are you a bored older man in rural America? Well, join the Masons! You can socialize, do vaguely religious ceremonial things, and drive tiny cars in parades while wearing a fez. https://www.google.com/search?q=shr...iAKzuMso_wcOlM: edit: the overlap between Masons, Rotary, Kiwanis, and Lions' Club members is very high. It's a social group for old white men that does philanthropy and local development. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jan 13, 2018 |
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Jan 13, 2018 19:46
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Tias posted:
I have an ex who is Jewish, but I don't use that to claim that I have a thorough knowledge of Jewish society and culture. And you say that they are a strongly liberal secret guild, but half of the time whenever I'm lurking on the freemason thread they're whining about how conservative their particular lodge is. Look, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I'm not saying that they control x, y, and z. But institutions have ideologies, from the church to the scouts to the communist party. I find the ideology behind masonry a bit dubious, from the claims to antiquity to the use of Solomonic pillars.
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Jan 13, 2018 19:51
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Ceciltron posted:Zizek's writings and movies, I find, are surprisingly sympathetic to Catholicism. I've heard him say things which I imagined only could come from the mouth of a Calvinist.
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Jan 13, 2018 19:52
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CountFosco posted:I find the ideology behind masonry a bit dubious, from the claims to antiquity to the use of Solomonic pillars. Sure, but I think you're vastly overestimating how much Masons care about the theology of the organization. First and foremost it's a social club.
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Jan 13, 2018 19:56
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Fair enough, but I care about the theology of the organization, even if they don't. Indeed, I find it strange that they don't care.
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Jan 13, 2018 20:18
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My issue isn't that I think I know everything about masons, clearly I don't, my issue is that you cast aspersions on their intentions which are primarily charity and self-improvement, because the idea of someone doing something in secret makes you uncomfortable  I agree that their claims to an antique lineage are bullshit though. It's play acting to impress the noobs, they are no more of ancient blood than the OTO or wiccans.
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Jan 13, 2018 20:22
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CountFosco posted:I've heard him say things which I imagined only could come from the mouth of a Calvinist. Well I mean it's pretty wacky but I found the Fragile Absolute on the whole really nice.
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Jan 13, 2018 20:23
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Isn't there a section in Christian theology where the whole point is to do good things so that no-one else knows you have done them?
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Jan 13, 2018 20:40
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Pellisworth posted:Sure, but I think you're vastly overestimating how much Masons care about the theology of the organization. First and foremost it's a social club. To go back to the scouting example at no point was I trained in colonial African warfare
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Jan 13, 2018 20:41
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Tias posted:Yes, that is no proof at all, and you're deliberately trying to twist an ambiguous claim into proof masons are devil-worshippers. You're capable of doing better than this, dude. (1) I still don't know what they believe, and I'm not going to join an organization that might or might not completely disagree with my religion at levels of information that nobody's telling me about yet. You can't make an informed decision without information. (2) My fiance is English and he hates them because apparently the police, judicial system, and some professions over there are full of Masons, who promote other Masons in secret and it's a problem for anyone who isn't one. He's also a staunch atheist so objection #2 isn't even about what they believe, don't believe, or might believe. That's in the UK and Commonwealth though, I don't think this is as big of a deal in the US. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jan 13, 2018 |
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Jan 13, 2018 20:49
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Senju Kannon posted:the end goal of distributism is apparently guilds so idk about making labour movements unnecessary, especially since catholic social teaching upholds that private ownership of the means of production is okay and that the solution to worker owner inequality is in having everyone own their own resources to generate wealth, which is... well, an interesting solution to say the least. guess everyone should start their own sports bars and grills
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Jan 13, 2018 21:24
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HEY GUNS posted:You're right. If i wouldn't pull something like that in my scholarly work I shouldn't pull something like that in daily life. HOWEVER, here's the deal. Well, no one's forcing you to join them, and yeah they promote all their own people, but so do churches, tory drones, rotary clubs and fraternities I'm just telling you that the demon worship stories are complete nonsense. They're an old boys club with spiritual pretensions, that's all.
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Jan 13, 2018 21:32
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i'm not sure whether or not i'd give another Orthodox favorable treatment. If it was anything important i'd probably run it past someone else to make sure i wasn't being unethical.
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Jan 13, 2018 21:34
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HEY GUNS posted:Sports Bars And Guilds? I'm sold.
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Jan 13, 2018 21:50
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HEY GUNS posted:i'm not sure whether or not i'd give another Orthodox favorable treatment. If it was anything important i'd probably run it past someone else to make sure i wasn't being unethical. that's cause you're not a white man concerned with "cultural fit"
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Jan 13, 2018 22:01
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Josef bugman posted:Please explain this to all physicists and engineers, I think they may have missed this particular memo when it came down the pipe. 
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Jan 13, 2018 22:02
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Tias posted:That a strongly liberal secret guild makes their members hold more liberal religious positions shouldn't really surprise anyone. Uhh Masons in the US are old conservative well-off white dudes who meet in secret and engage in blatant nepotism. Weird pagan stuff or not I don't think that's actually good. Because it has led to poo poo like P2
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Jan 13, 2018 22:11
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The Phlegmatist posted:Uhh Masons in the US are old conservative well-off white dudes who meet in secret and engage in blatant nepotism. Weird pagan stuff or not I don't think that's actually good. edit: their beliefs are also weird, i stand by that HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Jan 13, 2018 |
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Jan 13, 2018 22:14
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I'm not defending Masons, in fact I think they're mostly a group of old white men huffing their own farts because they don't have anything better to do. Mostly I object to conspiracy-theory ideas about how Masons are trying to take over the world or subvert <religion>. It's a loving golf club with corny handshakes and rituals. *flashes Mason ring, gives secret handshake* In the name of Baphomet, let's golf the back nine together? Loser buys a round of beers for watching the football game at the country club later! Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Jan 13, 2018 |
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Jan 13, 2018 22:41
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Pellisworth posted:I'm not defending Masons, in fact I think they're mostly a group of old white men huffing their own farts because they don't have anything better to do. maybe it's just that american masons aren't hardcore enough for british or italian masons have you ever considered that
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Jan 13, 2018 22:47
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HEY GUNS posted:maybe it's just that american masons aren't hardcore enough for british or italian masons i mean it's more likely that masons in europe would have a longer history and therefore more people who have been in high places, and since nepotism is incredibly common among white men these masons "paid it forward" in putting other masons in positions of power. the italian one linked looks like an exception to the rule, as it seems explicitly designed to be a power broker intended to circumvent laws preventing that sort of power brokering. plus italy has a long history of corruption that can't really be ignored. i don't know, the answer is either "there is a concentrated effort among freemasons to subvert the highest levels of government and civil society" or "a bunch of white dudes with power help other white dudes in power who remind them of them, going backwards throughout history." and generally speaking i think conspiracy takes more effort to perpetuate and keep secret than an old boy's club helping out some good old boys
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Jan 13, 2018 22:55
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