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That's why I added consensual you chump, don't ignore words just to try and sound more right
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Jan 21, 2018 03:22
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:The photographer is a fully grown adult though, and his job revolves around sexually exploiting teenaged girls for the public. He even tries to exploit his own power as a photographer to have sex with his subjects, and that's categorically statutory rape. Every time he's trying to get Miki to come to a photo shoot he's drawing her in under false pretenses. There's a deeper theme about sex that goes beyond what's inherently awkward about being a teenager. yeah, he's an adult so his sexuality is different than what is being shown specifically tied to the experiences of the teenage characters.
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Jan 21, 2018 03:38
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dogsicle posted:yeah, he's an adult so his sexuality is different than what is being shown specifically tied to the experiences of the teenage characters. Just because it's different doesn't mean they aren't similarly exploitative. For a show that draws so heavily from the Bible and Christian ethics, where Jesus said that lusting after someone in your mind is a sin, it makes sense that the show takes on a similarly critical view of sexual urges and fantasies.
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Jan 21, 2018 03:44
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i think this dude has ascended to zenyatta brain at this point
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Jan 21, 2018 03:44
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Just because it's different doesn't mean they aren't similarly exploitative. For a show that draws so heavily from the Bible and Christian ethics, where Jesus said that lusting after someone in your mind is a sin, it makes sense that the show takes on a similarly critical view of sexual urges and fantasies. nah i don't think the show is comparing how a pedophile exploits children sexually to inexperienced teens being a mess as they are starting to assert their sexuality for the first time. i think the criticism of the teens lies with excess, letting their demon sides take hold as shown at different points with the three central devilmen.
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Jan 21, 2018 04:00
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:For a show that draws so heavily from the Bible and Christian ethics, Aside from the "violence begets violent response" proverb, almost all of this show was limited to the book of Revelations for themes and symbolism. Saying it draws from the entire Bible/Christian ethics is an over-extension.
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Jan 21, 2018 04:05
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Yeah, I initially kinda saw what PK was trying to say, but they just keep digging dumb holes for themselves. Miko is at the very least bi, to weirdly go "well, actually" to that is ignoring the obvious non-heteronormativity* subtext of the show. Also hi thread, Devilman Crybaby is cool and good, glad I watched it. *It's very possible I'm misusing this term since I'm an idiot, so feel free to call me out, but I'm referring to the show's clear queer subtext and its breaking of gender norms. Akira is an extremely powerful devilman while still retaining his sensitivity and empathy for others, Ryo/Satan being intersex and in love with Akira, and Miko becoming less feminine post-devilman transformation, but isn't vilified for it.
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Jan 21, 2018 04:16
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i think the idea that miko saying "i love you" to miki before miki mounts miko and the two of them ride off into the distance wasn't an expression of romantic love to be absolutely absurd miko can be gay, bi, trans, whatever, that was very clearly not a scene between two purely platonic friends and it baffles me that other people come out of that scene reading otherwise
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Jan 21, 2018 04:20
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Equeen posted:Yeah, I initially kinda saw what PK was trying to say, but they just keep digging dumb holes for themselves. Miko is at the very least bi, to weirdly go "well, actually" to that is ignoring the obvious non-heteronormativity* subtext of the show. I literally advanced a queer reading of Miko. I said from the beginning that interpreting her as bi is valid. ninjewtsu posted:i think the idea that miko saying "i love you" to miki before miki mounts miko and the two of them ride off into the distance wasn't an expression of romantic love to be absolutely absurd You can certainly interpret it that way, but the apocalypse is not a romantic setting. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Jan 21, 2018 |
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Jan 21, 2018 04:20
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i get that it's kinda weird that people keep calling a character that fucks a dude onscreen "gay" instead of "bi" but i don't think that's the part of what you've had to say that anyone really actually takes offense to or cares about dude
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Jan 21, 2018 04:23
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just anecdotally, as a bi person, I call myself gay constantly im the problem with bi erasure
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Jan 21, 2018 04:27
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ninjewtsu posted:i get that it's kinda weird that people keep calling a character that fucks a dude onscreen "gay" instead of "bi" but i don't think that's the part of what you've had to say that anyone really actually takes offense to or cares about dude I guess the core problem may be the assumption that romance is exclusively sexual. Miko doesn't show any kind of sexual attraction to Miki and never thinks about her sexually, or vise versa, but that also doesn't mean that there isn't any possibility of romantic feeling.
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Jan 21, 2018 04:28
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You can certainly interpret it that way, but the apocalypse is not a romantic setting. i didn't realize that "i love you" only carries romantic meaning if it's in the context of a candlelit dinner "lets run off together as i sacrifice my wellbeing to save your life" seems pretty romantic enough to me though!
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Jan 21, 2018 04:29
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Miko doesn't show any kind of sexual attraction to Miki and never thinks about her sexually 
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Jan 21, 2018 04:31
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I guess the core problem may be the assumption that romance is exclusively sexual. Miko doesn't show any kind of sexual attraction to Miki and never thinks about her sexually, or vise versa, but that also doesn't mean that there isn't any possibility of romantic feeling. no one cares about your reading of the show being asexual. whether "they're gay" is a shorthand for "they are a same-sex couple that want to be romantically involved" or "they are a same-sex couple that want to be romantically involved and also mash clams" isn't really important to the actual offense people are taking, which is that you're saying "they're not gay, they neither want to mash clams nor be romantically involved. they're clearly just friends."
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Jan 21, 2018 04:31
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:the apocalypse is not a romantic setting. speak for yourself, sir.
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Jan 21, 2018 04:33
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Plenty of apocalyptic stories have romance plots to offset the inherent depressing nature of the setting, or to make the settings more tragic when one of the characters die or whatever.
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Jan 21, 2018 04:34
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Expect My Mom posted:just anecdotally, as a bi person, I call myself gay constantly same, but partly because i feel queer sounds weird outside of more academic conexts
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Jan 21, 2018 04:35
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ninjewtsu posted:no one cares about your reading of the show being asexual. whether "they're gay" is a shorthand for "they are a same-sex couple that want to be romantically involved" or "they are a same-sex couple that want to be romantically involved and also mash clams" isn't really important to the actual offense people are taking, which is that you're saying "they're not gay, they neither want to mash clams nor be romantically involved. they're clearly just friends." Obviously you all do care, and it's incredible that so much of you are getting mad over a reading that's not exclusively one way or the other. I've had plenty of times in my life where I've wanted to tell the people I care the most about that I loved them, but I never did because I was afraid of coming off as gay or as having some kind of sexual interest which wasn't there. By the time I lost those ties those feelings went unexpressed, and I've always regretted that I was incapable of expressing myself. To me, the apocalypse is a backdrop that forces the issue into a do or die scenario where if Miko never apologizes and admits her true love, then it will never happen. That can be sexual, romantic, or familial, but it's taking the chance to express love and seem pathetic that's important.
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Jan 21, 2018 04:38
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Namtab posted:You should get some help mate
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Jan 21, 2018 04:39
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did you read any part of my post after the first sentence
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Jan 21, 2018 04:39
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ninjewtsu posted:did you read any part of my post after the first sentence Have you read any of my posts where I literally said they could be gay? My problem was overreading into an admission of love, not of interpreting their relationship as gay or bi. That was like, my second post ITT.
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Jan 21, 2018 04:42
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RME posted:same, but partly because i feel queer sounds weird outside of more academic conexts also I'm Gay LoL is just a better punchline
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Jan 21, 2018 04:46
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yes, like i said, "that's not a romantic relationship" is the actual issue people have. "it's not purely sexual" or "it's bi, not gay" or "it's trans" are all weird side-conversations that are tangentially related to what people are actually angry at you for, and you're conflating disagreement or response to one of these conversations as being about all these conversations.
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Jan 21, 2018 04:47
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i mean if people actually have issues with those aspects of your arguments i don't exactly want to be speaking for everyone else in the thread but it seems to me like there isn't anything particularly offensive about those concepts themselves
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Jan 21, 2018 04:48
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whatever your reading, it's really blatant that miko desires a relationship with miki at the end that goes beyond platonic friendship. is this a statement anyone disagrees with?
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Jan 21, 2018 04:50
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[rhythmically banging my fists on the table] gently caress! that! spider!
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Jan 21, 2018 04:51
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ninjewtsu posted:yes, like i said, "that's not a romantic relationship" is the actual issue people have. "it's not purely sexual" or "it's bi, not gay" or "it's trans" are all weird side-conversations that are tangentially related to what people are actually angry at you for, and you're conflating disagreement or response to one of these conversations as being about all these conversations. It's hard to even tell what exactly people are getting mad about, because so much of what's being read into my posts simply isn't there. I started from the standpoint that character sexualities are open to interpretation, even to the point of advancing an asexual reading. What people are really getting mad about is that they're being made to question the assumptions of their fandom.
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Jan 21, 2018 04:51
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ninjewtsu posted:whatever your reading, it's really blatant that miko desires a relationship with miki at the end that goes beyond platonic friendship. is this a statement anyone disagrees with? we even voted
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Jan 21, 2018 04:51
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Expect My Mom posted:i also use queer if im just trying to describe myself quickly, but i also talk to a lot of Queer Academics so i get it. i mean its a really useful term and something like it needs to exist, but there's a very different feel to saying I'm Queer just like how saying I'm bi and bisexual are subtly different in register
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Jan 21, 2018 04:58
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gas
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Jan 21, 2018 04:58
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in the end, i'm glad this thread existed so i could be made to question the assumptions of my fandom 
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Jan 21, 2018 04:58
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actually all im doing is opening you plebian's minds
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Jan 21, 2018 05:00
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You really need to be more specific. The only same sex relationship with romantic undertones is Akira and Ryo's, and the only reason it never becomes explicit text is because Ryo doesn't believe in love. Then again this is all besides the point, who is or isn't gay doesn't matter because the central thesis is a universalized Christian influenced form of love. Hey this is the post that's actually offensive. I can't believe that you participated in the conversation about whether daisuki can refer to platonic love or not and still can't figure out that that's what's offensive about what you've said. People are mad that you saw two people with vaginas say "I love you" and your response was "people who think they're more than friends are overreading"
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Jan 21, 2018 05:05
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Just because it's different doesn't mean they aren't similarly exploitative. what lol
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Jan 21, 2018 05:09
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if teens want to gently caress other teens, that's similar to grown adults pressuring them into taking undie pics as a pretense to pressuring them into sex
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Jan 21, 2018 05:10
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SameExpect My Mom posted:just anecdotally, as a bi person, I call myself gay constantly
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Jan 21, 2018 05:29
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DisDisDis posted:if teens want to gently caress other teens, that's similar to grown adults pressuring them into taking undie pics as a pretense to pressuring them into sex When Akira goes off to indulge his sexual urges, he ends up in a red light district and rapes a demon. It's a clear overtone that to lust is exploitative. ninjewtsu posted:Hey this is the post that's actually offensive. I didn't say people who think they're more than friends are overreading, I said basing that on an admission of love is. What's offensive to people is the notion that their assumptions are questionable, even to the point of denying sexuality. There's no reason to get mad about an alternative reading.
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Jan 21, 2018 05:33
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:I didn't say people who think they're more than friends are overreading, I said basing that on an admission of love is. even if that point wasn't loving stupid, i literally just quoted you saying "The only same sex relationship with romantic undertones is Akira and Ryo's" in the post you are responding to. i don't understand if you're willfully ignoring half my posts or what. Pener Kropoopkin posted:What's offensive to people is the notion that their assumptions are questionable, even to the point of denying sexuality. There's no reason to get mad about an alternative reading. actually, i think that it's more "in this specific case, the theory you are putting forward that these two characters have nonplatonic feelings for each other is really dumb." people can disagree with you about that, to the point of thinking you're a loving moron for thinking that, without it being "my assumptions can not be questioned"
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Jan 21, 2018 05:38
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I finished watching Crybaby proper a while ago, so I did say I wanted to put my final thoughts down, lovely posts aside. This was a really fun anime to watch and I don't think I would have seen it if my Twitter timeline hadn't been talking about it and generating fanart all over the place. I just wanted to take the plunge because the past year I've stuck with mostly SoL animes or manga because it was low stress and relaxing. It's good to watch different things! I watched the dub because I really liked the voice acting. The script itself was weird and I will be honest and say I kind of burst out laughing when Ryo casually goes, "Oh, I'm Satan" and bursts into wings and confetti. But the actors sold every line to me no matter how weirdly written it was and that's all I needed to stay invested. I already had a feeling things were going to go downhill because Akira was taking so much time to come to terms with being a Devilman and fighting short-term conflicts, that he couldn't see the bigger picture of what Ryo was really doing. So thankfully, I geared myself up once things literally went to hell. I really felt bad for the Makimuras because the show did a good job with showing what a close family they were, how principled the parents were, which made sense as to why Miki was hopelessly kind and understanding until the end, and how well they treated Akira; I'm glad the show went the whole hog with the hopelessness and how the power Akira gained did nothing to protect what was important to him, including his relationship with Ryo. The connections people have made in the thread with Nagai's other works is pretty neat, the concept of God making Satan suffer over and over is interesting, especially when the result is that everything else around Satan is taken out with him. Thinking back on it, I don't have a favorite episode because watching the whole thing made me appreciate it as a whole rather than just any singular episode. It's really easy to point out things that are bothersome when you watch piece by piece, but that's boring. Overall, Devilman Crybaby was a fascinating, grotesque, action-packed, and emotional rollercoaster of a show. Ironically, it just sprints ahead and you just have to keep up with it, but that's not a bad thing. The people behind this knew what they wanted to do, did it well, and it left a lasting impression on me and stupid posts on the internet. ty, I don't write essays like this all the time, but it can be fun every once in a while
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Jan 21, 2018 05:43
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