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Ardennes posted:geopolitical usefulness for the US By and large, people in Europe don't give a poo poo about that. They do give shits about Turkey imprisoning European journalists, using Syrian refugees as a blackmail tool, and trying to use the Turkish diaspora to foment trouble, though.
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Jan 21, 2018 13:03
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Ikasuhito posted:Well looks like it really has started. The first Afrin village has been captured. https://twitter.com/CivilWarMap/status/955052534372143104 quote:Correction: Shinkal village is still under SDF control. The video taken by rebel forces was in Hay Ughlu. There are clashes in Shinkal though.
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Jan 21, 2018 13:57
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Nice democracy they have there. https://twitter.com/AliTahmizian/status/955062713423663105 France condemned the offensive, and has called for a meeting at the UN, so that's one NATO member with a veto against Turkey. https://twitter.com/ehli_sam/status/955067946191278080
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Jan 21, 2018 14:25
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Looking more and more like Turkey didn't get permission for this from any of it's allies. Here's to hoping that Erdogan overplayed his hand wrt relations with NATO. Who knows, maybe some MANPADS suddenly and untracably find their way to Afrin if he doesn't pull out or something equally plausibly deniable. They're not going to be walking in that's for sure, plenty of time for all kinds of reactions.Al-Saqr posted:how nice of turkey to intervene only when it comes to its own selfish needs vis-a-vis the kurds and only after the Syrian revolution was thoroughly defeated, holy crap Erdogan sucks. you remember when I told you that Turkey was the reason PYD didn't join in the attack on Assad? Yeah.
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Jan 21, 2018 14:33
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Assad's interests are what makes me wonder here. On one hand, he must be happy his only remaining real threat inside Syria is getting buttraped, on the other hand if the turkish mercenaries take over the whole of afrin and manbij, they'd have a position that'd be very hard for Assad to dislodge them from in the future. So question is, to give mandpands or not to give manpads? hm
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Jan 21, 2018 14:36
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lollontee posted:Assad's interests are what makes me wonder here. On one hand, he must be happy his only remaining real threat inside Syria is getting buttraped, on the other hand if the turkish mercenaries take over the whole of afrin and manbij, they'd have a position that'd be very hard for Assad to dislodge them from in the future. So question is, to give mandpands or not to give manpads? hm If he does, Turkey will just give them to Nusra, so that doesn't seem like a good idea. Assad's best move is probably just waiting for the Kurds to come to him, because he can't fight Turkey. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Jan 21, 2018 |
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Jan 21, 2018 14:37
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Sinteres posted:If he does, Turkey will just give them to Nusra, so that doesn't seem like a good idea. Assad's best move is probably just waiting for the Kurds to come to him, because he can't fight Turkey. You're saying that after pissing off NATO by launching an unauthorized invasion, Erdogan is going to give American manpads to al-qaeda in response to the SDF acquiring missiles of unknown origin? Well hell, I hope he does. That'd really piss off Trump, and more importantly the imperialist military establishment. lollontee fucked around with this message at 14:52 on Jan 21, 2018 |
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Jan 21, 2018 14:47
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lollontee posted:That'd really piss off Trump, and more importantly the imperialist military establishment. Trump doesn't give a gently caress about any of this, which is part of why it's happening.
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Jan 21, 2018 14:55
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I wouldn't underestimate Trumps ability to get pissed at any perceived slight or disrespect. Couple of dead observers should do the trick
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Jan 21, 2018 15:00
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https://twitter.com/ahval_en/status/955064665821843456 This is all going to end really well. Also first ATGM hit of the campaign. Though it looks like the tank made it out alright. https://twitter.com/QalaatAlMudiq/status/955070287191724032 https://twitter.com/QalaatAlMudiq/status/955087049689915392 Ikasuhito fucked around with this message at 15:53 on Jan 21, 2018 |
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Jan 21, 2018 15:39
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FM Çavuşoğlu: If France or another country takes this issue to the UN, it will be considered as allies of terrorist organization
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Jan 21, 2018 15:53
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Didn't Russia say it was going to bring it up at the UN?
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Jan 21, 2018 16:10
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Count Roland posted:Didn't Russia say it was going to bring it up at the UN? Well gosh darnit, then, Turkey's just surrounded by terrorists!
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Jan 21, 2018 16:44
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#jesuisterrorist
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Jan 21, 2018 16:55
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CrazyLoon posted:Well gosh darnit, then, Turkey's just surrounded by terrorists! Russia doesn't have a border with Turkey.
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Jan 21, 2018 17:42
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Throatwarbler posted:Russia doesn't have a border with Turkey. No land border, but both are neighbors through the Black Sea.
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Jan 21, 2018 17:58
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When it comes to the ~~~~white hate~~~~ against Erdogan a part of it comes from perspective. He was a politician in a democratic system that undermined its institutions to install himself as a tyrant and, after his Kurdish allies outlived their usefulness, he threw them under gunshot and oppression. One of the only bright spots of this century in the ME is that the endless conflicts allowed the Kurds to seize an opportunity for themselves to overturn their dismissal in the region under Sykes Picot. Erdogan violently opposes that and would burn his relationship with the West in the name of degenerate racism and sleep soundly in an alliance of dictators. That entire arc is why he's particularly detestable amidst the cesspool that is the Middle East even if in many ways he is bog standard. He's the Turkish Trump minus the alzheimers (for now). It's not particularly attractive that he betrays everyone constantly either and, oh, also:  Think about how Syria would have played out if Erdogan had supported the Kurds instead of ISIS.
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Jan 21, 2018 18:43
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Erdogan also backs the Uygur seperatists in China and their subsequent alliance with ISIS, because of pan-turkic solidarity? Anyway if China isn't already backing Assad Erdogan is trying his hardest to bait them into doing so.
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Jan 21, 2018 18:48
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lollontee posted:I wouldn't underestimate Trumps ability to get pissed at any perceived slight or disrespect. Couple of dead observers should do the trick this has not panned out so far wrt the random collection of soldiers who died in Niger for Some Reason, Trust Us, Kelly And Mattis Say It's Cool
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Jan 21, 2018 19:34
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Ze Pollack posted:this has not panned out so far wrt the random collection of soldiers who died in Niger for Some Reason, Trust Us, Kelly And Mattis Say It's Cool Actually yeah, exactly. It's completely down to what some of these gatekeeping troglodytes decide to whisper in the T-mans ear. So uhh, who the gently caress knows what happen?
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Jan 21, 2018 19:39
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Ze Pollack posted:this has not panned out so far wrt the random collection of soldiers who died in Niger for Some Reason, Trust Us, Kelly And Mattis Say It's Cool Escalation in Niger would be of no benefit whereas in Syria...
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Jan 21, 2018 19:40
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Sinteres posted:France condemned the offensive, and has called for a meeting at the UN, so that's one NATO member with a veto against Turkey. https://twitter.com/sayed_ridha/status/955043091303473152 quote:Egyptian Foreign Ministry expresses its rejection of the Turkish military operation in Afrin, considers it a violation of Syrian sovereignty https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/955075680533807104 quote:BREAKING: Iran calls for Turkey to 'immediately' stop its offensive in Afrin Assad, Russia, France, Iran, Egypt... Erdogan is a uniter! Uniting the entire world against him that is. 
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Jan 21, 2018 19:53
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People in Europe / America are more upset about Turkey than about Egypt because Turkey was on a road towards a functioning democracy for decades, was at the cusp of integrating into a united Europe (already is part of the customs union) etc., and it is frustrating to watch all that progress being eroded to fuel one rear end in a top hat's ambition. Egypt never had such a history with Europe and never was object of such hopes.
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Jan 21, 2018 20:02
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Don't understand all this hatred for PoC Hideki Tojo
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Jan 21, 2018 22:12
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Saladin Rising posted:More countries are starting to condemn the Turkish invasion, and it's an amazing cross section of countries that usually can't agree on what color the sky is: Are there any primary sources for these claims besides pro-gov and pro Kurd twitters
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Jan 21, 2018 22:19
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Well, we should probably have a bit of perspective, Turkey's shift away from Europe doesn't boil down to one guy's ambitions and it's fair to argue that Erdogan represents real elements of Turkish society that were never enamoured with Secularism, Democracy (insofar as it was allowed by the military) or the West in general.
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Jan 21, 2018 22:30
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khwarezm posted:Well, we should probably have a bit of perspective, Turkey's shift away from Europe doesn't boil down to one guy's ambitions and it's fair to argue that Erdogan represents real elements of Turkish society that were never enamoured with Secularism, Democracy (insofar as it was allowed by the military) or the West in general. Of course he's not the only one in the country who contributed to any of this, but it's disingenuous to act like Erdogan doesn't drive public opinion himself. He had an opportunity to work on bridging those gaps in Turkish society, but instead took the opportunity to do unto others what had been done unto his side before him. It's an understandable impulse, but it's a recipe for everyone who's currently on top in an autocratic society to never relinquish power in favor of political liberalism because of the certainty that it'll be ruthlessly seized by another aspiring autocrat and turned against them. Elected leaders and would be reformers should be held to a higher standard than open dictators, because their bad behavior discredits reform efforts elsewhere. Dr Kool-AIDS fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Jan 21, 2018 |
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Jan 21, 2018 22:36
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Throatwarbler posted:Are there any primary sources for these claims besides pro-gov and pro Kurd twitters http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/latest-turkey-troops-enter-syrian-kurdish-enclave-52498986 http://www.bostonherald.com/news/international/2018/01/the_latest_russia_warned_kurdish_officials_of_turkey_attack The Associated Press posted:5:20 p.m.
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Jan 21, 2018 22:43
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Ibn Salman is making an anime: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTpSafUJzhQ Al-Saqr how does this make you feel?
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Jan 21, 2018 22:47
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https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/21/...WT.nav=top-news Meanwhile in Afghanistan:
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Jan 21, 2018 23:21
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man this recent rojava situation is driving a realllllly annoying rift between leftists on the internet (specifically between libertarian-marxists/anarchists who support rojava because of democratic confederalism and marxist-leninists/ml-maoists who are against rojava because of it being supported by the united states military) i always wonder if the united states would go out of its way to marginally support one or two small leftist groups just for the purpose of sowing discord among the far left i guess it doesnt really take that much to get leftists online to argue tho
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Jan 21, 2018 23:37
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OhFunny posted:https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/21/...WT.nav=top-news how the gently caress has the country not collapsed already.  i assume its just US bribe money and military keeping the central government alive.Saladin Rising posted:More countries are starting to condemn the Turkish invasion, and it's an amazing cross section of countries that usually can't agree on what color the sky is: I am honestly surprised it took him this long to invade.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:42
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Kanine posted:man this recent rojava situation is driving a realllllly annoying rift between leftists on the internet (specifically between libertarian-marxists/anarchists who support rojava because of democratic confederalism and marxist-leninists/ml-maoists who are against rojava because of it being supported by the united states military) The people who'd sacrifice a group just to prove an ideological point to the "imperialists" are doing exactly the same thing of which they are accusing their enemies, and can be safely ignored.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:45
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Kanine posted:man this recent rojava situation is driving a realllllly annoying rift between leftists on the internet (specifically between libertarian-marxists/anarchists who support rojava because of democratic confederalism and marxist-leninists/ml-maoists who are against rojava because of it being supported by the united states military) I don't think the Pentagon under two successive presidencies was making decisions based on what college students on twitter would think. To the extent that anyone with actual power takes note of the YPG's ideology, my assumption is that the basic reaction is 'lol.' A lot of people probably felt that way when the US originally supported Islamists against leftists during the Cold War too though, to be fair, though I still have my doubts about the ability of a stateless minority hated by all of their neighbors being significant drivers of international revolution.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:47
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Kanine posted:man this recent rojava situation is driving a realllllly annoying rift between leftists on the internet (specifically between libertarian-marxists/anarchists who support rojava because of democratic confederalism and marxist-leninists/ml-maoists who are against rojava because of it being supported by the united states military) wait what, seriously? there's actually people out there who calling themselves leftists who do not support rojava? that's amazing, i din't know that was an actual thing
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Jan 21, 2018 23:52
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like lmao yeah lend-lease sure was a black mark on soviet history right? heehaha
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Jan 21, 2018 23:53
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lollontee posted:wait what, seriously? there's actually people out there who calling themselves leftists who do not support rojava? that's amazing, i din't know that was an actual thing tankies. thats all you need to know.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:59
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lollontee posted:wait what, seriously? there's actually people out there who calling themselves leftists who do not support rojava? that's amazing, i din't know that was an actual thing There are lefties who don't know what rojava is. Almost certainly most lefties.
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Jan 22, 2018 00:01
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Dapper_Swindler posted:tankies. thats all you need to know. how do you not support the PKK, which the PYD incidentally has no connections to, and still call yourself a tankie. like, every tankie i know supports rojava so what the dick where do you even find these people mlmp08 posted:There are lefties who don't know what rojava is. Almost certainly most lefties. well duh, there's people who don't know who peter kropotkin was. being a leftie doesn't mean you can't be ignorant
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Jan 22, 2018 00:07
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Even PPG said he wouldn't go back to fight with the YPG again last year because the US is active there now. There may have been practical reasons since I don't know how US soldiers would respond to American volunteers over there, but it seems like even he felt like he had to disavow that connection as a Marxist. I guess you don't join a fringe no hope party in the first place if you aren't looking for impractical levels of purity in your politics.
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Jan 22, 2018 00:10
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