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Taerkar posted:There aren't many lights that are starved for crit space. If we're talking all the poo poo that comes out with the clans then yeah, you start to see that when you get into mechs with FF and endo, especially IS mechs.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:25
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Eh, FF + Endo + XL is 34 crits consumed which is quite a lot out of the (assuming hands still fitted) 47 free slots of any mech, but unless you're going pretty bulky (or have FF/Endo/XL with a small engine) you're still more likely to run out of tonnage instead of crits on most designs. Also IMO Inner Sphere FF is a waste.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:30
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Inner Sphere FF is pretty much never ever the right choice on anything heavier than 35 tons. Even on the smallest lights it's a marginal gain that might let you tweak and fit in a single extra heatsink, medium laser, or a couple points of engine rating (If building for something like MWO where engines don't need to be in exact tonnage multiples).
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Jan 26, 2018 20:39
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I think I only put it on an IS design if I've got the crit space. It's probably the lowest priority for any design. All vehicles get it though because lol vehicle space.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:47
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Few things would make me happier than a new battletech rule set designed around modern game design methods. My existing BTech book collection can join my retired D&D book collection. Course with my luck it does happen and Topps puts PGI in charge of writing the rules. Careful what you wish for and all that.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:07
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Eldragon posted:Few things would make me happier than a new battletech rule set designed around modern game design methods. My existing BTech book collection can join my retired D&D book collection. Didn't they already try that with the Dark Age clix stuff? I remember really disliking it when I was in middle school, but at this point I cant remember if it was a visceral rejection of all the DA bullshit or if the game system itself was wonky somehow.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:09
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Cyrano4747 posted:Didn't they already try that with the Dark Age clix stuff? I remember really disliking it when I was in middle school, but at this point I cant remember if it was a visceral rejection of all the DA bullshit or if the game system itself was wonky somehow. I think it was more Clix in general sucked.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:10
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I mean, say what you will about TT battletech, but for all its glaring weaknesses it also does a really good job of doing a really granular depiction of two mechs fighting each other. poo poo gets mega-wonky when you have more than four on each side, but at that small unit level it works pretty well. Doubly so when you know what you're doing. In my heyday my friends and I could get through a simple lance v lance game pretty quick because we had all the basic weapon ranges, heat and damage values, core modifiers etc. memorized. That said, it's a system that basically requires you be playing with people who aren't total rules spergs and are willing to house rules poo poo that is just dumb*. God help you if you get too far in the weeds with the advanced rule sets also - that poo poo should be judiciously borrowed from when it's fun and pointedly ignored when it's not. *the best house rule we employed was a variation on the Stackpole Rule that made mechs cook off a whole loving lot. Because we were in middle school and splosions r kool.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:13
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We used the Stackpole rule with ammo explosions and not reactor explosions.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:15
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Skoll posted:I think it was more Clix in general sucked. It was everything. The game system was bad, so was the fluff, and models WizKids went with were atrocious. Hey look, it's an Atlas! 
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Jan 26, 2018 21:16
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When I used to play TT back in college we used Stackpoling too cause Stackpoling is just kind of loving awesome. And it made melee more exciting.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:16
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Everything post War of 3039 should be jettison'd.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:19
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:Everything post War of 3039 should be jettison'd.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:22
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The problem battletech has thematically is that there are two directions you can 'fluff' rare high tier equipment (either it's incredibly old lost knowledge or incredibly new cutting edge knowledge). Battletech tries to have it both ways, which is why *the mere knowledge the clans exist* limits the amount you can care about 3025 people running around after SLDF lostech. You know it's all going to be outclassed soon anyway, even if not literally in the game, so part of the immersion is lost. The way to fix clans is to go back to the concept of the Inner Sphere being a wholly feudal decentralised realm with basically non existent but for the grace of Comstar comms and logistics. Then have the clans appear with SLDF level tech and nothing better, but with the advantage of having the military C2 and logistics to fight a galactic campaign as an army. Basically reverse the military culture of the IS and Clans and suddenly it works a lot better.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:22
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Clan stuff being different instead of just better would be good.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:24
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I really just want a Battletech game set during the Second Succession War and Reunification War.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:31
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Cyrano4747 posted:Didn't they already try that with the Dark Age clix stuff? I remember really disliking it when I was in middle school, but at this point I cant remember if it was a visceral rejection of all the DA bullshit or if the game system itself was wonky somehow. The Clix game was basically crap. It was possible to house-rule it into a pretty good battletech game (Basically turn it into alpha-strike), but that didn't excuse the other glaring problems. There was a time ~6-7 years ago when Catalyst lost the license to produce a boxed table top set with plastic miniatures and another one of the various BTech license holders was working on creating a new game with new rules, but it obviously never went anywhere and Catalyst got the license back. Now I really just play Battletech in an RPG format; 1 mech per player and a DM coming up with a creative OpForce. Allows me to utilize all the crazy rules the game has to offer without pissing people off. Eldragon fucked around with this message at 21:43 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 21:39
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For the record Weismann has stated that retcons are out of the question because just because he helped write it doesn't mean he had the right to rewrite it.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:40
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Sky Shadowing posted:For the record Weismann has stated that retcons are out of the question because just because he helped write it doesn't mean he had the right to rewrite it. I wonder what he would do if he held all the IP again
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Jan 26, 2018 21:41
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Sky Shadowing posted:For the record Weismann has stated that retcons are out of the question because just because he helped write it doesn't mean he had the right to rewrite it. Boo this poo poo.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:43
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Taerkar posted:Clan stuff being different instead of just better would be good. Clan stuff being flat out better isn't really that horrible a problem as long as you structure the game right. It's an interesting challenge when the players are riding around in a mix of 3025 and new-hottness 3040 era stuff and need to deal with no bullshit omnis. It's also an interesting challenge when it's a small group of clan mechs having to try to figure out how to take down individually inferior but numerically superior IS mechs. Unfortunately that works directly against TT's strengths, since the whole system is built to handle small unit fights. You can kind of fake it with tonnage (IS heavies vs. clan mediums for example) but even that doesn't really work unless you take it to extremes. Of course this is depending on players understanding that it's not balanced and agreeing to work with the GM to make a fun game. Where it just falls the gently caress all apart is when you've got one or two players who insist on min-maxing the gently caress out of everything and either roll up the most munchkin mary sue bullshit ever or insist on hoovering up every last scrap of clan tech in salvage, to the point where after 3 fights their 3025 tech SHD-2H is basically a funny looking Linebacker.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:45
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Eldragon posted:The Clix game was basically crap. It was possible to house-rule it into a pretty good battletech game (Basically turn it into alpha-strike), but that didn't excuse the other glaring problems. False, Clix was a great game that occasionally had some problematic expansions. Once it got to its 2.0 status (Age of Destruction) most of the problems were dealt with. It got me and a bunch of buds into the Battletech universe. It's also a great game for letting you do big battles (Talking 10+ mechs with infantry/vehicles, etc.) in a few hours. To each their own though.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:46
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just have oldBattleTech and newBattleTech
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Jan 26, 2018 21:47
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Cyrano4747 posted:insist on hoovering up every last scrap of clan tech in salvage, to the point where after 3 fights their 3025 tech SHD-2H is basically a funny looking Linebacker. This was me with an Atlas in one campaign set in like 3051. By the end of it, it most deffo did not resemble an actual Atlas.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:47
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My only TT games were a few for fun games on my back porch against a friend of mine who has been into TT battletech sine the 80s. We used the newest ruleset, and I took Clan Stars against his heavier lances. I'd have like a few lights, some power armor, and maybe a medium against his significantly heavier lance, and it was good fun. Balance by cost and mission design works well, especially in the type of game HBS is likely to make. On PC you can easily do something like make the player take a Clan Star against 12+ IS mechs or other lopsided poo poo
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Jan 26, 2018 21:48
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Skoll posted:Boo this poo poo. He just knows what he's dealing with. He has a user base that is loyal as gently caress but also spergy and invested as gently caress. If he deep sixed all that poo poo he'd have a fan revolt on his hands. Disney was able to get away with jettisoning all the EU stuff and enraging the turbo-nerds because Star Wars is a huge, broadly popular property with massive appeal to your average, casual fan. Imagine if the only people who gave two shits about Luke Skywalker were the sort of people who have read all the New Jedi poo poo and had serious opinions about the Yuuzhan Vong. If those are the people you have to sell poo poo to you really can't retcon away all the poo poo they've been obsessing over for the last three decades. That's Weisman's problem. He has to walk a fine loving line between making a modern BT product that will appeal more than just that rabid core, but he's also well aware he needs that rabid core to pay the bills. Dropping the story in the old school 3rd SW era was a really, really loving smart move on his part. It lets him subtly start re-writing rules starting from the most basic ruleset while kicking the can on the really controversial poo poo way down the road. Hopefully by the time he has to start unraveling how the gently caress to not make ERPPCs the sole king of the battlefield he'll have already gotten people used to a lot of poo poo that would have started a screaming fit earlier. Re-adjusting AC damage is a good example of dealing with some of those fundamental issues in a way that might have longer term effects.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:52
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My friends and I would do two Lances of whatever vs one Star of whatever and it usually worked out well, except for that one rear end in a top hat who did Clan 55 Tonners with 3x LPL, a targetting computer, and DHS to fire it all non-stop.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:52
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:My friends and I would do two Lances of whatever vs one Star of whatever and it usually worked out well, except for that one rear end in a top hat who did Clan 55 Tonners with 3x LPL, a targetting computer, and DHS to fire it all non-stop. TC's not working with pulse lasers was one of our house rules for exactly this reason.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:54
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Cyrano4747 posted:He just knows what he's dealing with. He has a user base that is loyal as gently caress but also spergy and invested as gently caress. If he deep sixed all that poo poo he'd have a fan revolt on his hands. No, I totally understand and get that. It's just not something I agree with because I am also an idiot sperg (both on the EU thing you mentioned which I am still salty about to the point where Star Wars is basically dead to me as a franchise) but BT just has so many glaring issues that makes it an absolute pain in the rear end to play if you want to do something besides 3040 era poo poo. I don't mind SLDF stuff because that poo poo is balanced against each other, both sides have the same poo poo and it's pretty fun using a lot of that. Clan poo poo on the otherhand is just the absolute worst garbage to play with and I reaallly wish he could just kind of write it off and start from scratch.
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Jan 26, 2018 21:55
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Cyrano4747 posted:Clan stuff being flat out better isn't really that horrible a problem as long as you structure the game right. It's an interesting challenge when the players are riding around in a mix of 3025 and new-hottness 3040 era stuff and need to deal with no bullshit omnis. It's also an interesting challenge when it's a small group of clan mechs having to try to figure out how to take down individually inferior but numerically superior IS mechs. Unfortunately that works directly against TT's strengths, since the whole system is built to handle small unit fights. You can kind of fake it with tonnage (IS heavies vs. clan mediums for example) but even that doesn't really work unless you take it to extremes. As opponents for the players then yeah, certainly. They make good 'boss' challenges, especially if you limit the availability of their equipment as salvage. But for general gameplay then you get the worst part of any TT game involved, those players that are WIN AT ANY COST (why don't I have any friends?)
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Jan 26, 2018 22:00
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Skoll posted:No, I totally understand and get that. It's just not something I agree with because I am also an idiot sperg (both on the EU thing you mentioned which I am still salty about to the point where Star Wars is basically dead to me as a franchise) but BT just has so many glaring issues that makes it an absolute pain in the rear end to play if you want to do something besides 3040 era poo poo. I don't mind SLDF stuff because that poo poo is balanced against each other, both sides have the same poo poo and it's pretty fun using a lot of that. Clan poo poo on the otherhand is just the absolute worst garbage to play with and I reaallly wish he could just kind of write it off and start from scratch. They kinda un-hosed the clans stuff by the time you get around to the IS invading clan space and the FedCom civil war. Just pump everyone's tech to the point where the differences don't really matter any more. The Clans kind of shoot their wad and just become another handful of states on the coreward rim. I like the 3040 era best myself, but there's also a really solid argument for 3065. Of course right around then they started just getting weird with some of the extra crap like those protomechs. Jihad was the real killer, though, and the DA poo poo just kind of petered it all out. Interestingly I kind of gave up at that point precisely because DA was such a "rocks fall, everyone dies" reset on poo poo. I mean, what, you expect me to follow the Davion soap opera for literal loving decades then just blow the world over so you can reboot?
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Jan 26, 2018 22:02
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:False, Clix was a great game that occasionally had some problematic expansions. Once it got to its 2.0 status (Age of Destruction) most of the problems were dealt with. It got me and a bunch of buds into the Battletech universe. Fair, age of destruction fixed a lot of problems. And yeah, big battles were where it shined. But I still think Alpha-Strike did a better job, and we switched to playing Alpha strike with Clix units. But it also could be my group are a bunch of grizzled wargaming grognards who aren't happy if the game isn't obtuse.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:02
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Taerkar posted:As opponents for the players then yeah, certainly. They make good 'boss' challenges, especially if you limit the availability of their equipment as salvage. YUUUUUUP. God we had one of those in my group who we coudln't just loving kick out due to middle school politics involving friends, friends parents, etc. Jesus loving christ, his munchkin half elemental mary sue 
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Jan 26, 2018 22:03
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Cyrano4747 posted:They kinda un-hosed the clans stuff by the time you get around to the IS invading clan space and the FedCom civil war. Just pump everyone's tech to the point where the differences don't really matter any more. The Clans kind of shoot their wad and just become another handful of states on the coreward rim. I like the 3040 era best myself, but there's also a really solid argument for 3065. I fully agree with you on Jihad, that as a thing should just not have happened. I can understand wanting to move on with new characters and settings and poo poo like that but outright killing beloved characters and units people legit grew up with was kind of a dumb move on their point. Jihad is when I personally stopped really paying attention to BT and I really know fuckall about anything Dark Ages because of it.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:08
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Skoll posted:I fully agree with you on Jihad, that as a thing should just not have happened. I can understand wanting to move on with new characters and settings and poo poo like that but outright killing beloved characters and units people legit grew up with was kind of a dumb move on their point. Jihad is when I personally stopped really paying attention to BT and I really know fuckall about anything Dark Ages because of it. I think Jihad is where FASA lost most of us. Notice how the TT franchise kind of died after that.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:09
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Taerkar posted:We used the Stackpole rule with ammo explosions and not reactor explosions. The Best Rule. Especially when you come up directly behind a mech with lots of ammo and shoot it in the butt. Nothing bad will happen!  e: definitely the best rule because there's no reaction like chain reactions 
Gwaihir fucked around with this message at 22:12 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 22:10
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The first battle we used that rule in had a Victor getting a TAC on a Battlemaster and blowing up its ammo, then the resultant ammo explosion rolled boxcars three times and popped the Victor's head.Cyrano4747 posted:YUUUUUUP. God we had one of those in my group who we coudln't just loving kick out due to middle school politics involving friends, friends parents, etc. When I run games (usually around 3000 AD) I have a tendency to let the players get a handful of LosTech and then make them try to keep it running for as long as possible. I think the max has been 10 years. Cyrano4747 posted:I think Jihad is where FASA lost most of us. Notice how the TT franchise kind of died after that. When it was happening it very much felt like they were making GBS threads all over the TT to push out the clicktech stuff and tried to retroactively justify it. All of the WoB goes from being an annoying and dangerous nuisance to MILLIONS OF TROOPS AND WARSHIPS EVERYWHERE SUDDENLY made the initial clan invasion look good in comparison.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:13
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I wanted to like Wobbies but yeah the *THEN SUDDENLY AN ENTIRE ARMADA* killed that hardcore.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:16
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I love all the advanced tech and fun toys but it flat requires a good GM setting up the scenarios. For random games I just liked picking whatever BV number and using megamek's random army generator to combat my own inherent ultra spergy mech construction and composition tendencies. In single player games of course all bets are off gimme everything.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:19
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I already thought it was ridiculous that Comstar had so many high quality troops and mechs that they just handy-dandy shipped to Tukayyid and beat the snot out of the Clans with, but could live with it because whatever. But then the WoB thing happened and just lol. "Secret facilities" with massive production capabilities, millions of crazy fanatic followers, blah blah blah just was awful.
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Jan 26, 2018 22:25
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