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Avenging_Mikon posted:Like, are we talking literally "keyboard vomit used to go by X, and now is going by Y"? Because holy poo poo that’s so not cool. We're talking "no you can't have your pronouns in your email signature" When I talked to the office manager about it I was told to just not bring that sort of stuff to work
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Jan 31, 2018 15:13
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Synthbuttrange posted:Manager shouldnt do poo poo, it's for the employee to disclose. i mean it sounds like it was horribly mishandled in this case, and obviously shouldn't be done without permission, but i think having the authority of your boss back you during this can be real helpful. when a friend of mine transitioned at work they had a little thing set up by the boss the day before she started presenting as female talking about "ok they're gonna show up as a woman now, don't be a fuckin' dick about it, here's how you address them, don't make me tell you again" which shut up the coworkers she was most worried about (which she probably never would have told off herself or reported had they done something lovely cuz she's shy) it's not their place to just go and do it though, obviously yeah
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Jan 31, 2018 15:18
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keyboard vomit posted:We're talking "no you can't have your pronouns in your email signature" lol wow ok are you in a state with trans discrimination laws or does your job do any kind of federal contracting because that sounds like a fuckin' lawsuit waiting to happen
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Jan 31, 2018 15:19
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keyboard vomit posted:We're talking "no you can't have your pronouns in your email signature" What the loving poo poo gently caress. "Don't bring yourself to work. Be a mindless drone cog in the machine." Please tell me you are both vital to the company's function, and in a job-rich area so you can leave with little notice.
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Jan 31, 2018 16:06
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ate all the Oreos posted:lol wow ok iirc keyboard vomit is in Madison so no
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Jan 31, 2018 16:18
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ate all the Oreos posted:i mean it sounds like it was horribly mishandled in this case, and obviously shouldn't be done without permission, but i think having the authority of your boss back you during this can be real helpful. when a friend of mine transitioned at work they had a little thing set up by the boss the day before she started presenting as female talking about "ok they're gonna show up as a woman now, don't be a fuckin' dick about it, here's how you address them, don't make me tell you again" which shut up the coworkers she was most worried about (which she probably never would have told off herself or reported had they done something lovely cuz she's shy) I was the first out trans person at my workplace too and they did something similar. Except the CEO limited it upper management, other than that they left it up to me who I wanted to tell.
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Jan 31, 2018 16:24
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Avenging_Mikon posted:What the loving poo poo gently caress. "Don't bring yourself to work. Be a mindless drone cog in the machine." Please tell me you are both vital to the company's function, and in a job-rich area so you can leave with little notice. Activity job hunting, and I'm literally the only drafter in my department in the entire state As soon as I get an offer I'm leaving
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Jan 31, 2018 16:27
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keyboard vomit posted:Activity job hunting, and I'm literally the only drafter in my department in the entire state Good! I hope a great offer comes in right away. I can't believe how upset that comment made me.
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Jan 31, 2018 16:31
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Avenging_Mikon posted:What the loving poo poo gently caress. "Don't bring yourself to work. Be a mindless drone cog in the machine." Please tell me you are both vital to the company's function, and in a job-rich area so you can leave with little notice. i had a boss like that that would regularly tell us all to turn off our emotions and just work, and then proceed to get real mad and yell at us a bunch over relatively minor things, i'm sure the two aren't related at all 
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Jan 31, 2018 16:41
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Glazier posted:I was the first out trans person at my workplace too and they did something similar. Except the CEO limited it upper management, other than that they left it up to me who I wanted to tell. Even that's hosed up. Nobody had a right to disclose your information without your explicit direction. They're putting you in danger by doing that.
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Jan 31, 2018 18:07
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cis autodrag posted:Even that's hosed up. Nobody had a right to disclose your information without your explicit direction. They're putting you in danger by doing that. At my last job my supervisor (who knew because I haven't gotten my SSN/state id changed yet so it wasn't possible for them not to) outed my to the entire call center while i wasn't even there because she 'wanted to use the right pronouns' when announcing i'd done the best in the last week
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Jan 31, 2018 18:17
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cis autodrag posted:Even that's hosed up. Nobody had a right to disclose your information without your explicit direction. They're putting you in danger by doing that. i think they're saying they did it with permission, as in my example
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Jan 31, 2018 18:18
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cis autodrag posted:Even that's hosed up. Nobody had a right to disclose your information without your explicit direction. They're putting you in danger by doing that. Oh sorry, I should have specified that was with my consent. 
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Jan 31, 2018 18:22
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while we're tangentially on the topic let me do some whining: my wife has yet to transition anywhere but... well our house really, she's out to some (online-only) friends but not anywhere else*, and she only ever dresses androgynously despite owning skirts and dresses. meanwhile she's been on hormones for over two whole years now and has breasts and everything, and she really wants to fully transition, at least abstractly. i know it's her choice of when she wants to take the next step and how she wants to do that and i'm not gonna do anything about it to force her or w/e but like, she seems real stuck in a rut. compounding this, she's not seeing a therapist because she saw one approximately 3 times and decided it "wasn't doing anything" and stopped going. anyway i guess step one is "get her to try a different therapist," anyone have any other recommendations or were in a similar situation? i'm thinking she could also really use some IRL trans friends - we have a friend that started transitioning at the same time as her (though they live across the country) and was just as shy/nervous/etc. at first about the whole thing, but then started going to a group therapy session and made a bunch of other actually-irl trans friends who she could lean on and who basically empowered her to finish the job, and now she's so far advanced that she's gotten a trach shave and her legal birth certificate changed and is getting bottom surgery next week (wish her luck!) * my parents know, because I was a loving jerk and told them. i share a lot of my personal life with them and they're the most trusting, loving people in the world and accepted her fully and didn't make a big deal out of it and aren't telling anyone else, but yeah i accept that i'm still a total dick for doing that. however she's still not "out" with them, because she doesn't want to be, so whenever we go visit we all use male pronouns and her dead name and all pretend like my parents don't know and that my parents don't know that we know that we're all pretending they don't know, the whole thing is a big mess
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Jan 31, 2018 18:47
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the thing i'm most worried about is she (even with androgynous clothes) passes real well yet still uses male bathrooms, and frequently guys will walk in and see a woman and freak out / walk back out / try to tell her that this is a male bathroom, and she's overjoyed when that happens because she loves that she's passing but that just sounds like a great way to get murdered to me 
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Jan 31, 2018 18:49
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Yeah, it would really help her to have other trans people in her in-person support network. Having a trans group at work was instrumental to me feeling comfortable presenting in public, because I could directly experience examples of people doing it comfortably.
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Jan 31, 2018 19:30
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Earnest question: all these situations are talking about people who began presenting as their proper gender at some point in the past, before starting the job, right? Not people who were Emma before the Christmas break and then came back in January as Edgar? In the former case obviously it's a huge violation to bring up a person's past. In the latter case it seems that telling the office about a person's new name and pronouns is a good idea? Like, one woman here transitioned over the summer and she never told me her name or pronouns personally, but I found out through the grapevine. I used her new name the next time I saw her. She didn't react in any particular way. Was what I did inappropriate because she hadn't specifically come out to me?
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Jan 31, 2018 19:58
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in my case i wasnt out at all at work my first name is gender ambiguous but doesn't match what's on my ssn/id so i had to inform the hiring supervisor (workplace too small to have dedicated hr) who just decided it was a good idea to out me to everybody
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Jan 31, 2018 20:01
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UberJew posted:in my case i wasnt out at all at work Oh well yeah that's terrible too  Sometimes I forget that the accidental microagressions that I worry about in San Francisco are, well, pretty micro compared to the intentional megaagressions that LGBT folks experience in most other parts of the country
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Jan 31, 2018 20:10
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Sagebrush posted:In the latter case it seems that telling the office about a person's new name and pronouns is a good idea? like i said in my previous example yeah this is a good thing and probably should be done but only if you explicitly get permission to do it, and this also assumes the people you work with / for aren't complete jackasses
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Jan 31, 2018 20:19
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Sagebrush posted:I used her new name the next time I saw her. She didn't react in any particular way. Was what I did inappropriate because she hadn't specifically come out to me?
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Jan 31, 2018 20:26
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two friends of mine independently said that i have been 'presenting differently' since what could weakly be called my coming-out post, despite me mostly not... feeling like i'm doing anything different? i haven't made much progress at all in anything, and still have no idea if or when i will.  ate all the Oreos posted:i had a boss like that that would regularly tell us all to turn off our emotions and just work, and then proceed to get real mad and yell at us a bunch over relatively minor things, i'm sure the two aren't related at all this is pretty much how the boss of this place operates. feelings are overrated, just be a cog. it sucks.
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Jan 31, 2018 21:06
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Sagebrush posted:Earnest question: all these situations are talking about people who began presenting as their proper gender at some point in the past, before starting the job, right? Not people who were Emma before the Christmas break and then came back in January as Edgar? I had a similar situation at work last year, fellow formerly named Charlie came back after xmas break as Charlotte and because she works at a different office I only found out because my team lead at the time (who is openly gay by the way) took a few of us aside and said 'it's not Charlie, it's Charlotte, and it's not he, it's she' So I kind of assume just rolling with she and Charlotte and so on when calling her because the drat dev server broke again (loving Sun SPARC boxes, oh my god) was the right thing to do despite not being explicitly told by her? But to me the whole thing of how to talk to trans folks without (accidentally, I assure you) being a total wiener is still a head scratcher once in a while (ed: I mean the not-so-out folks, it's rather obvious otherwise I suppose) Ciaphas fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jan 31, 2018 |
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Jan 31, 2018 21:47
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it's a question i hadn't really considered before. my face-value assumption was that when a person has come out and asked some people they work with to start using their new name/pronouns, they would prefer that treatment from everyone. and obviously i know that some people might be out to close friends and family but not to the general public, so that must be respected. i guess i hadn't considered that someone might be out to some coworkers but not to others. i see the reasons that it would be desirable (some coworkers are shitheads, some aren't) but it also seems extraordinarily hard to control that information in a workplace -- and pretty confusing when you have to interact with groups of out-to and not-out-to people. wow, i guess this trans stuff is pretty hard, eh? 
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Jan 31, 2018 22:58
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Zamujasa posted:this is pretty much how the boss of this place operates. feelings are overrated, just be a cog. i gave my boss a bit of slack on this cuz he was just kinda forced into the management position because the company didn't want to hire an actual manager and instead just made one of the devs do it, so all his management knowledge came from his experience in the soviet military when he wasn't being forced to poorly manage everyone he was a pretty smart and cool guy with a lot of stories, and he used to tell us fun soviet military slogans like "an idle soldier is a criminal" e: he'd also talk about the soviet version of winnie the pooh sometimes because everyone liked hearing him say "vinnie poo" and nobody but me would get that he's talking about the soviet one, and once I mentioned Hedgehog in the Fog and he was like "how the hell do you know what that is" and was real surprised 
Shame Boy fucked around with this message at 23:01 on Jan 31, 2018 |
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Jan 31, 2018 22:59
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Sagebrush posted:wow, i guess this trans stuff is pretty hard, eh? Yep. As a rule, you should never change how you refer to someone you already know until they explicitly tell you to. If you got like an email from a manager or something I would determine that they were asked to send it by the actual person first before using that new info. --- For some reason I keep winding up being people's trans den mom and I don't know why. Most recently, I'm apparently adopting another patient at my electrolysis clinic. It's a tiny room with just a curtain between the two treatment tables so conversations bleed over. Today an older trans woman who isn't out publicly yet, and who I've talked with through the curtain a few times, asked me to please please meet her for coffee so she can learn from me. Of course I said yes, but sometimes it's stressful taking on dozens of other people's transition anxieties on top of mine. I think I need to practice being less approachable or something.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:07
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cis autodrag posted:For some reason I keep winding up being people's trans den mom and I don't know why. similar thing happening to me, lots of LGBT friends of friends with various [generally mental] health issues gravitate towards me because I think I might be the only actually mentally stable (with meds) moderately successful person in my friend circle, who can talk to them about how yeah I was in the lovely place and now i am not in the lovely place and you can too! either that or I'm just a nice sucker who's good at listening and hates seeing people suffer 
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Jan 31, 2018 23:10
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ate all the Oreos posted:i gave my boss a bit of slack on this cuz he was just kinda forced into the management position because the company didn't want to hire an actual manager and instead just made one of the devs do it, so all his management knowledge came from his experience in the soviet military unfortunately the owner here was an owner previously and has his own military experience, so it isn't something i can really afford him slack on. quote:cis autodrag words i assume that if you know someone asking them one-on-one "what would you prefer i call you" wouldn't be too terribly taboo, would it? e: im good at bbcode Zamujasa fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Jan 31, 2018 |
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Jan 31, 2018 23:11
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Zamujasa posted:unfortunately the owner here was an owner previously and has his own military experience, so it isn't something i can really afford him slack on. oh yeah i still gtfo of there the moment I could and you should too lol
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Jan 31, 2018 23:13
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Zamujasa posted:i assume that if you know someone asking them one-on-one "what would you prefer i call you" wouldn't be too terribly taboo, would it? If they're coming out to you, yes. If you just "think" they're trans or you just heard from someone else, you should probably not bring it up. It's not quite outing but it's still a shock and a trauma when somebody you haven't told is like "Hey, what are your pronouns now?"
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Jan 31, 2018 23:14
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cis autodrag posted:If they're coming out to you, yes. If you just "think" they're trans or you just heard from someone else, you should probably not bring it up. It's not quite outing but it's still a shock and a trauma when somebody you haven't told is like "Hey, what are your pronouns now?" suppose I work with a trans woman and someone privately outs her to me and a small group of others. does she deserve to know who outted her and to whom she has been outed?
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Jan 31, 2018 23:18
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Helianthus Annuus posted:suppose I work with a trans woman and someone privately outs her to me and a small group of others. does she deserve to know who outted her and to whom she has been outed? that's a toughie because everyone's going to feel different about it. i would say that if you think the outing was malicious, you should definitely tell her so she can protect herself and take appropriate actions against that person. If it was inadvertent, I'd probably just not mention it. But some people might want to be told about inadvertent outing too. The difficulty is, how do you find out how they feel without implicitly telling them they're outed. But definitely punch the outer in the face.
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Jan 31, 2018 23:21
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Sagebrush posted:it's a question i hadn't really considered before. my face-value assumption was that when a person has come out and asked some people they work with to start using their new name/pronouns, they would prefer that treatment from everyone. one of my friends, when she reintroduced herself to a group of us, straight up told the rest of us that she wasn't planning on being out at work for a few months so idk if you're not sure, ask?
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Jan 31, 2018 23:57
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Oh good, my insurance decided the butt surgeon I wanted to see is too expensive and all the alternatives they offered proudly advertise the shittiest results I've ever seen on their websites. I can feel the happiness evaporating from my body
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Feb 1, 2018 01:36
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cis autodrag posted:Oh good, my insurance decided the butt surgeon I wanted to see is too expensive and all the alternatives they offered proudly advertise the shittiest results I've ever seen on their websites. I can feel the happiness evaporating from my body Tell them that having a good butt is crucial to peak physical health, and they’ll be saving money by sending you to your doc! Unrelated, I need to contact a specialist psychologist to help me figure myself out. Anyone have tips on red flags to look out for?
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Feb 1, 2018 01:43
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cis autodrag posted:Yep. As a rule, you should never change how you refer to someone you already know until they explicitly tell you to. If you got like an email from a manager or something I would determine that they were asked to send it by the actual person first before using that new info. That's how the training at my work put it too - you should wait for the person transitioning to indicate to you that they want to use their name and pronouns at work, which by the way is right now because she asked us to show everyone a video she made introducing herself. employees were told that supervisors were told that if an employee were to come out to them that they would not discuss it with anyone until they have a confidential meeting with the HR rep, the person who is transitioning, and (if the person is comfortable with it) the rep of the LGBT employees group to confidentiality plan out how the person would like the transition to go. I guess the real trouble is that ideally you would want to lay the groundwork for a smooth transition in the form of training on how to handle it professionally, but in smaller organizations just holding that training will set off the "who is it?!" rumor mill.
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Feb 1, 2018 01:56
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cis autodrag posted:Oh good, my insurance decided the butt surgeon I wanted to see is too expensive and all the alternatives they offered proudly advertise the shittiest results I've ever seen on their websites. I can feel the happiness evaporating from my body bummer is medical tourism an option for this? brazil?
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Feb 1, 2018 02:19
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Helianthus Annuus posted:bummer I will never leave the country for a surgery. And traveling to Brazil would be even more expensive than just eating the cost of the surgeon I wanted because then I'd have to take time off work.
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Feb 1, 2018 02:28
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i see that you have carefully considered that option already well, that was my best idea. i hope something else comes through for you
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Feb 1, 2018 04:26
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quote:yosqueer lgbtqia+ yeerk pool: having a good butt is crucial to peak physical health
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