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I think it's sort of a consequence of FF always being kind of a simple jrpg series where encounter design has always been super simplistic and "spam the good poo poo for 6 minutes until the boss falls over". They probably could have had encounters with more mechanics/phases but then people would probably complain that the game is too hard
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Feb 3, 2018 08:01
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Hivac posted:I think it's sort of a consequence of FF always being kind of a simple jrpg series where encounter design has always been super simplistic and "spam the good poo poo for 6 minutes until the boss falls over". They probably could have had encounters with more mechanics/phases but then people would probably complain that the game is too hard I succesfully had fun with the combat in most other ff games. I think the combat system in 12 is one of the worst in ff games. Everything about it just feels like pointless busywork so you set up your gambits to automate most of it but then it just feels supremely unrewarding.
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Feb 3, 2018 08:04
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Yeah I don't understand the 'watch game play itself' versus 'watch myself mash x to the previous menu inputs I did' like most FF games don't have hard or thought provoking encounters. They have usually have like 5 bosses that might wipe you or have a gimmick. But if you wanna talk about pointless busy work its FFX when you have to capture all the mobs and die to cactuars for 10 hours to get AP. And your reward is to look at the monster menu. At least in 12 you got to look at the environment while you go on hunts or look for rare mobs. Kild fucked around with this message at 08:08 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 08:05
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Kild posted:But if you wanna talk about pointless busy work its FFX when you have to capture all the mobs and die to cactuars for 10 hours to get AP. And your reward is to look at the monster menu. At least in 12 you got to look at the environment while you go on hunts or look for rare mobs. You could just not do the terrible endgame content in x What I meant about pointless busywork is that everything about combat feels like that in 12
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Feb 3, 2018 08:10
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At least 12 isn't as pointlessly complicated, broken, and sloggy as some other matsuno games
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Feb 3, 2018 08:10
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Andrast posted:You could just not do the terrible endgame content in x then I don't know how you're not mashing x if you're not doing endgame stuff like theres maybe 3 fights in the X storyline that can be hard (yunalesca, kimahri solo fight, and Seymour)
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Feb 3, 2018 08:13
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idk about ff12 but while x does technically have more interesting combat than some other turn-based rpgs it's still so insanely slow and random encounters are so frequent that there was a point at the end where i just gave up and cheated myself insanely high stats to trivialize every fight because holy poo poo i was tired and didn't want to think about sphere grids anymore so based on literally every ff i've played having combat that i just get sick of after a point ff12's combat being something you can basically entirely automate honestly doesn't sound that bad
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Feb 3, 2018 08:14
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Kild posted:then I don't know how you're not mashing x if you're not doing endgame stuff Combat can be easy and fun. 12 accomplishes one of those. I think I spent most of my 12 playthough reading sa.
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Feb 3, 2018 08:17
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It's almost like fun is subjective and the argument is kind of fruitless due to incompatible and unmoving opinions
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Feb 3, 2018 08:19
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Hivac posted:At least 12 isn't as pointlessly complicated, broken, and sloggy as some other matsuno games Which is why it’s the worse Matsuno game.
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Feb 3, 2018 08:20
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I loving wish ff12 was pointlessly complicated and broken
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Feb 3, 2018 08:21
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Everything about vagrant story was utterly exhausting and I don't really understand how people play through that game. Same kinda goes for the original togre and fft these days (the 4000ish hours probably don't help) but for different reasons which I won't get into because I'm not interested in even more "nuh uh" "uh huh" arguments. But everyone likes different things and that's fine I guess
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Feb 3, 2018 08:25
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The Colonel posted:idk about ff12 but while x does technically have more interesting combat than some other turn-based rpgs it's still so insanely slow and random encounters are so frequent that there was a point at the end where i just gave up and cheated myself insanely high stats to trivialize every fight because holy poo poo i was tired and didn't want to think about sphere grids anymore so based on literally every ff i've played having combat that i just get sick of after a point ff12's combat being something you can basically entirely automate honestly doesn't sound that bad There's nothing else there though since there's no story and all the characters are non entities so all you're left with is walking around awful sprawling dungeons auto killing enemies until the game ends.
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Feb 3, 2018 08:27
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If I don't have to psyche profile the designer to play the game properly it's trash
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Feb 3, 2018 08:27
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Hivac posted:Everything about vagrant story was utterly exhausting and I don't really understand how people play through that game. Same kinda goes for the original togre and fft these days (the 4000ish hours probably don't help) but for different reasons which I won't get into because I'm not interested in even more "nuh uh" "uh huh" arguments. But everyone likes different things and that's fine I guess nuh uh
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Feb 3, 2018 08:27
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Enemy -> Cast Scathe you win
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Feb 3, 2018 08:30
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Assuming you manage to find it in yet another pointlessly labyrinthine dungeon
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Feb 3, 2018 08:35
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Tactics Ogre and Vagrant Story can get pretty obtuse but FFT is pretty straightforward except one mid game difficulty spike. All the extra systems are for the secret dungeon and people who like to explore that stuff but I never felt it necessary to grind or push the boundary.
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Feb 3, 2018 08:39
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The whole concept of modifying pc Ai scripts being the core of combat if actually cool if you do it in a system that is both interesting and fun that does something with it other than use it to make the not stellar core combat engine slightly less annoying. 12 didn't. 13 did ,weirdly enough.
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Feb 3, 2018 08:39
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:The whole concept of modifying pc Ai scripts being the core of combat if actually cool if you do it in a system that is both interesting and fun that does something with it other than use it to make the not stellar core combat engine slightly less annoying. 12 didn't. 13 did ,weirdly enough. Until you forgot to load one of your preset profiles and hosed your battle before it started because you couldn't just flip the class of a single character like a sane game.
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Feb 3, 2018 08:41
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Which didn't matter in FF13 because you could just hit retry at any time and it'd put you just before the enemy with zero penalty. The dumbest part was the Eidolon fights that gave you non-optimal set ups before the fight basically forcing at least one restart.
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Feb 3, 2018 08:44
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Sakurazuka posted:Which didn't matter in FF13 because you could just hit retry at any time and it'd put you just before the enemy with zero penalty. Because that's fun to have to do halfway through a fight for arbitrary reasons.
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Feb 3, 2018 08:48
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I mean I'm not entirely sure how that would happen and you don't realise within a couple of seconds of starting the fight.
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Feb 3, 2018 08:58
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Playing Zodiac Age was remarkably fun because several years of experience as a grown-rear end adult made it a lot easier to understand the plot (Ashe is easily led into doing really stupid things out of anger) and the improvements really helped playability - even if it's kind of telling that one of the best impovements was triple battle speed. Being able to break the damage limit, and not having restrictions on the spell queue, also helped both battle speed and the feeling of being big + strong. The game's a lot more fun when Penelo rocks up to an enemy and blats it for 30k rather than 9999.
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Feb 3, 2018 09:59
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Just wait for the remake where it's a action rpg with standard ai for your pals.
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Feb 3, 2018 12:30
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Because that's fun to have to do halfway through a fight for arbitrary reasons. letting you do mid battle shuffling goes against the feeling of really quick battles and constant action that they were going for, imo like the longest boss fight I remember was the first pope fight and that was 8 minutes with a bad loadout, so losing 4 minutes of progress doesn’t seem as burdensome as you’re implying e: also yeah how did you get far enough into a fight that restarting is a pain without realizing you don’t like your team
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Feb 3, 2018 12:50
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On the topic of fun combat and subjectivity. Personally I can't remember any turn-based rpgs that had actually fun combat other than Original Sin 1/2 and Paper Mario TTYD. Some rpgs had turn-based combat that was interesting to explore for like 5 hours but then you figure out how to effortlessly kill anything and it just gets tedious. At least in Berseria I got to mash attack buttons and feel the controller rumble in tandem with my characters attacks when I was effortlessly killing everything and wasn't just picking options in a menu like I did in FFX. drat, ffx was boring as poo poo.
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Feb 3, 2018 13:03
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Mana khemia has turn based combat that was fuckin’ flashy and felt awesome, but I can’t honestly call it hard. However I also wouldn’t consider TTYD hard so 
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Feb 3, 2018 13:06
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Yeah subjective is subjective. It's just annoying when people bookmark threads just to start the same 90 page essay on why they hate 'game' like every time ff12 is mentioned
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Feb 3, 2018 13:09
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FFXII was the best modern entry into the FF series. I just wish they'd stuck to their guns and didn't have Vaan and Penelo in it. On the other hand it was great when the adults would give him the stink-eye when he opened his mouth. As some point I need to pick up the remake.
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Feb 3, 2018 13:43
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Vaan and Penello were both in the earliest design documents, the narrative that they were forced in later is internet make believe.
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Feb 3, 2018 14:16
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Sakurazuka posted:Vaan and Penello were both in the earliest design documents, the narrative that they were forced in later is internet make believe. but i dont like them!!! so they must have been forced in against the creator's wishes! glorious final fantasy tactics writer guy would never make a decision i dont like!
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Feb 3, 2018 14:25
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Aren't there interviews with members of the actual design team that state that, while early in development, Basch was supposed to be the main character, but because of Vagrant Story's under-performance, Square got really gun-shy on older characters as protagonists and Vaan was brought in.
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Feb 3, 2018 14:31
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No
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Feb 3, 2018 14:39
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Apparently the notion stems from this Q&A session with Akitoshi Kawazu (executive producer) and Hiroshi Minagawa (co-director) of the Final Fantasy XII project. Minigawa would later go on to become the directorial lead of FFXII.quote:Q: Why a design of the hero [Vaan] so effeminate? quote:Q: In terms of the game design, from Matsuno and the exit requirements, I would like to know if they are completely satisfied with the final result or if his ideas that were really important to him had to be put back for lack of time or means? vvv: That's Google Translate for you. I ain't paying for a professional translator to parse this for a dead web forum. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 15:05
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im not exactly going to trust a translation that thinks 'why a design of the hero so effeminate' is an actual sentence that makes sense
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Feb 3, 2018 15:09
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I think it just means that the first iteration of the script centered on Basch, and by the end product, the plot included Vaan and Penelo.
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Feb 3, 2018 15:16
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People keep comparing Final Fantasy XII to Star Wars but are unaware that Star Wars itself was based on The Hidden Fortress, an Akira Kurosawa movie where the viewpoint characters are from the perspective of two peasants named Tahei and Matashichi who are effectively the C-3PO and R-2D2 of that movie while the important characters who move the story forward are Rokurota and Princess Yuki. They seem to think Vaan being the viewpoint character is a mistake when Ashe is the protagonist. They seem to think he was shoehorned in and has no importance. That isn't the case, Vaan is the heart of FF XII and without him Ashe wouldn't have grown as a character by the end of the game and realized that being beholden to the past and having revenge against the Empire wouldn't change anything. He and Penelo are there to remind Ashe what's really important; her people. He isn't the most important character in the game by any means, but he does have his role in the events of the story.
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Feb 3, 2018 15:17
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Artelier posted:I think it just means that the first iteration of the script centered on Basch, and by the end product, the plot included Vaan and Penelo. However, the two guys do state why they decided on a younger protag in the Q&A session, and while the writers did an alright job integrating them into the story, it seems the reason the decision was made in the first place was far more mundane and straight forward.
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Feb 3, 2018 15:22
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Mr. Fortitude posted:People keep comparing Final Fantasy XII to Star Wars but are unaware that Star Wars itself was based on The Hidden Fortress, an Akira Kurosawa movie where the viewpoint characters are from the perspective of two peasants named Tahei and Matashichi who are effectively the C-3PO and R-2D2 of that movie while the important characters who move the story forward are Rokurota and Princess Yuki. I think FF12 takes influence from both Hidden Fortress and Star Wars though. There's certainly more of Basch and Ashe in Rokurota and Yuki than in Leia and, I dunno, Rokurota doesn't have a clear Star Wars analogue either. I guess Obi-Wan is maybe closest but he's still used pretty differently. Raxivace fucked around with this message at 15:36 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 15:26
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