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Kay Kessler posted:Cruella is the best Disney villainess because she's the only one who has no excuse whatsoever for her actions. The other ones like Maleficent and Yzma could kinda sorta justify themselves, like they were wronged in some way, even if only slightly. Cruella's just a lovely person, and that's awesome. Don't forget Madame Medusa from The Rescuers, or for that matter the villain from Down Under or the guy from Oliver and Company, they were pretty much all greedy assholes too
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Feb 3, 2018 19:29
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Kay Kessler posted:Cruella is the best Disney villainess because she's the only one who has no excuse whatsoever for her actions. The other ones like Maleficent and Yzma could kinda sorta justify themselves, like they were wronged in some way, even if only slightly. Cruella's just a lovely person, and that's awesome. While I don't care for that Era of Disney movies overall I do love that the Cruella DeVil theme song is Roger trolling his wife from upstairs - when Anita tries to hush him because she'll hear, his reaction is to start stomping in time to make sure that she does. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcdQk7JBPzQ
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Feb 3, 2018 19:31
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drrockso20 posted:Don't forget Madame Medusa from The Rescuers, or for that matter the villain from Down Under or the guy from Oliver and Company, they were pretty much all greedy assholes too The guy from Oliver and Company was just straight up a mobster. You even hear him on the phone at one point giving advice to someone on how to do the cement shoes.
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Feb 3, 2018 20:03
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Cruella deVille probably seems more evil than she originally did since I don't think fur as a fashion statement is much of a thing these days, and people are a lot more into animal rights than they used to be. Maybe you could do a thing about controlling the stray animal population? Or maybe there's a rabies outbreak and it needs drastic measures to be contained. Or maybe harvesting insulin. It's a real reach, but that's the whole point. I kinda think the stories of riffing off of classic stories by reverse-engineering how the villains were actually justified and flip-turning things upside-down are kinda played-out ever since Wicked, and it feels even cheaper now that Disney is using the concept themselves to milk more money out of their old IPs. It feels especially disingenuous when the same party is making money off of the original and its indictment, but that may just be that my anxiety about our ever-growing corporate overlords is ruining my ability to enjoy things though.
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Feb 3, 2018 20:05
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MonsterEnvy posted:The guy from Oliver and Company was just straight up a mobster. You even hear him on the phone at one point giving advice to someone on how to do the cement shoes. Also had one of the more brutal deaths of any Disney villain, guy just got run over by a train
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Feb 3, 2018 20:05
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Well, Clayton got hung by a stray vine, that's pretty brutal.
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Feb 3, 2018 20:13
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"Scar was the only one not treating the hyenas like crap", when he was blatantly treating them like crap on screen. This other side stuff kinda falls flat when you have to change next to everything about the characters and story.
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Feb 3, 2018 20:19
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The idea it was trying to sell was the the stories had been deliberately mistold to make the characters look bad, so the idea it was going for was that everything about the stories had been changed - and that was the version seen by the world.
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Feb 3, 2018 20:23
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Okay, but that just makes stuff like the "Maleficent" movie. Wicked worked because they put energy and time into the world building and looked at how aspects of the Oz universe could be seen as unfortunate and played them straight. Just going "but what if the hero was actually the bad guy and the story we saw was completely wrong" is just super lazy.
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Feb 3, 2018 20:29
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I'm still narked that Maleficent didn't lead to "Ansem" showing up as some part of after credits bit to offer her to be part of the leauge of disney vilians and tell her of how she could possibly get her vengence.
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Feb 3, 2018 20:39
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Nodosaur posted:Wicked worked because they put energy and time into the world building and looked at how aspects of the Oz universe could be seen as unfortunate and played them straight.
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Feb 3, 2018 20:40
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paradoxGentleman posted:Coincidentally, has anyone tried to watch the Wacky Races reboot? Is it any good? Huh I did not know there was a new one I should check it out. (From a quick look the artstyle is strange.)
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Feb 3, 2018 20:52
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FilthyImp posted:Some of the stuff was too on the nose. Wasnt there some terrible governmental goonsquad known as the Gale Force? You want on the nose, watch Tin Man - there is a McGuffin called the Gray Gale that will give whoever finds it power that the villains are after - when it is found towards the end, it turns out to be in the tomb of the Original - when Zooey Deschanel's character (D.G because the series can not be subtle) it turns out that it is Kansas as seen in the original movie (ie Black and White), with a Dorothy Gale who holds a jewel that can do Magic Moon Things - she is the Gray Gale. The Tin Man of the title is a member of DGs entourage, an ex-cop from the fallen Emerald City so nicknamed after their tin badges (like the UK slang, "Copper"), who is also a bit of an rear end in a top hat, and played by Neil McDonough in a rare non-evil role. Also the Wicked Witch summons her flying monkeys, the main one being named Sora, from tattoos on her cleavage. I enjoyed the series, but it was not exactly "good" - it was a kind of stupid I enjoyed. I enjoyed Maleficent for similar reasons. Finally, my God is Deschanel acting super poorly in that series, it's possibly her worst performance ever to the point that she pronounces her father's name as "A Homo" (it's spelled Ahamo, it's supposed to be Omaha backwards) The best actor in it is definitely Alan Cummings as the Scarecrow analog Glitch, because he sells his characters schtick fairly well (former genius who had half of his brain stolen by the wicked witch and is now an unreliable mess) like when they get lost in the woods and Glitch tries to play it off with a goofy demeanor but can't help let his true frustration bleed through with a quiet, depressed "Not again...  "
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Feb 3, 2018 20:54
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You can make an interesting case that Mufasa was attempting to establish a hereditary monarchy that lions don't naturally do for incest reasons. Scar clearly had a big falling out with Mufasa and no longer lived with the pride or even had a real name, maybe that had something to do with it. It's still weird to take these scenes of a guy laying out his plans for a coup in a flaming hell to his goose-stepping hordes and say "Yeah but what if he's right." It's blatantly untrue to the original source material's intent, and you have to do a lot of footwork to get around that and make something more than just blind contrarianism. It's also fairly different when a public domain IP that already has a bunch of unique takes or published fanfiction like Wizard of Oz has something like that compared to when a media titan that zealously guards its IPs commissions a hot take on one of their own properties.
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Feb 3, 2018 21:02
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Payndz posted:My nearly-three-year-old son has got massively into Paw Patrol, which means I've seen way too many episodes of it in a short time. Have to say, though, the combination of "We need to come up with more new toys!" and writers probably contemplating eating a bullet if they have to come up with another reason for the pups to rescue Chickaletta or Callie the cat one more goddamned time has turned it completely loving insane. Don't forget that under normal circumstances, an entire town depends on a ten year old boy and his crew of talking dogs to be their police force and to settle petty squabbles amongst townsfolk. Acebuckeye13 posted:So, this is a thing I won't be watching: I really hate this recent trend towards cheap looking simplistic character designs in cartoons. It feels so... Hanna-Barbera, but without even that level of effort. raditts fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 21:10
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Nodosaur posted:Okay, but that just makes stuff like the "Maleficent" movie. Wicked worked because they put energy and time into the world building and looked at how aspects of the Oz universe could be seen as unfortunate and played them straight. Just going "but what if the hero was actually the bad guy and the story we saw was completely wrong" is just super lazy. Technically, didn't the original story of Sleeping Beauty involve the prince raping Aurora while she slept? But then again, a lot of the fairy tales Disney adapted were kind of hosed up in their original text. Larryb fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Feb 3, 2018 |
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Feb 3, 2018 21:24
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Larryb posted:Technically, didn't the original story of Sleeping Beauty involve the prince raping Aurora while she slept? But then again, a lot of the fairy tales Disney adapted were kind of hosed up in their original text. People cleaned that bit up long before Disney adapted the story.
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Feb 3, 2018 21:45
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I think my favourite thing in Maleficent was she even had to make the love story happen, practically smacking the prince and Aurora together like action figures. That was hilarious.
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Feb 3, 2018 21:56
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raditts posted:Don't forget that under normal circumstances, an entire town depends on a ten year old boy and his crew of talking dogs to be their police force and to settle petty squabbles amongst townsfolk. And I didn't discover until I saw another episode today that he also built a supercavitating submarine. Which puts him on a par with Russia's top mad weapons designers. quote:I really hate this recent trend towards cheap looking simplistic character designs in cartoons. It feels so... Hanna-Barbera, but without even that level of effort.
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Feb 3, 2018 23:16
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It sounds like Paw Patrol kinda owns. I'm tempted.
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Feb 3, 2018 23:23
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BioEnchanted posted:It sounds like Paw Patrol kinda owns. I'm tempted.
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Feb 4, 2018 00:26
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raditts posted:
Wasn't the simplistic style big in the mid to late 90s? thelaughingman fucked around with this message at 01:23 on Feb 4, 2018 |
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Feb 4, 2018 01:21
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In contrast to my previous post, here's a thing I did just watch: https://twitter.com/AlanIturiel/status/959575335325990912
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Feb 4, 2018 02:19
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The ultimate opposite to Cruella is obviously Elsa, a villain that even the studio realised was so sympathetic they basically rewrote the movie to make her the protagonist.
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Feb 4, 2018 04:00
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thelaughingman posted:Wasn't the simplistic style big in the mid to late 90s? I recall mid to late 90s being the era of lovely cg, transitioning to the brief period of Flash cartoons on the early 2000s.
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Feb 4, 2018 07:55
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There was some good CG back then, even besides the usual suspects of Beast Wars and Reboot, though not many people remember War Planets/Shadow Raiders or Insektors. Notably, most of the good CG shows worked around the limitations of the medum; relatively small casts that have more in-depth characterisation, non-human characters that are easier to render (Reboot outright cheating as they're video game characters) on top of the endless identical mooks, and taking advantage of how it makes special effects relatively cheap to have lots of action scenes. In contrast, I've mentioned before that even though the technology is cheaper nowadays, CG is a trap for cartoons because of the expense and time consumption of making new assets, compared to 2D animation. A monster of the week represents nearly as much effort as a main cast member, but then you need to find an excuse to use it again if you run out of money. Sonic Boom blatantly suffers from having made the core cast, settings and a bunch of deliberately bland background characters, then realising they'd run out of assets and had to start using said background characters as regulars. TMNT also suffers from New York City apparently being a ghost town, though later seasons definitely had a lot more budget to throw around.
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Feb 4, 2018 08:04
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Do Chernabog and the Horned King count? I mean their usually left out for being to graphically evil these days. Gaz-L posted:The ultimate opposite to Cruella is obviously Elsa, a villain that even the studio realised was so sympathetic they basically rewrote the movie to make her the protagonist. Didn't she blind a kid in the original story, or this like Emperor's new groove where the movie itself was majorly different at some point.
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Feb 4, 2018 09:31
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ConanThe3rd posted:I'm still narked that Maleficent didn't lead to "Ansem" showing up as some part of after credits bit to offer her to be part of the leauge of disney vilians and tell her of how she could possibly get her vengence. Especially since Disney owns all the Kingdom Hearts stuff themselves Fellbat posted:Do Chernabog and the Horned King count? I mean their usually left out for being to graphically evil these days. Frozen and The Snow Queen only have minimal connections in the finished product
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Feb 4, 2018 09:35
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As much as Disney basically only took the loose aesthetic of The Snow Queen, hard to argue that the changes weren't worth it given the ridiculous popularity that resulted from it.
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Feb 4, 2018 09:54
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Fellbat posted:Do Chernabog and the Horned King count? I mean their usually left out for being to graphically evil these days. Chernabog is almost literally the devil and really only provided atmosphere to a tone poem, plus he gets "defeated" by a bell and a line of monks. There's not much to include since there's nothing to him beyond an awesome design. As for the Horned King, I think he gets left out because The Black Cauldron was a massive flop that almost killed Disney's animation studio.
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Feb 4, 2018 10:21
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:Chernabog is almost literally the devil and really only provided atmosphere to a tone poem, plus he gets "defeated" by a bell and a line of monks. There's not much to include since there's nothing to him beyond an awesome design. As for the Horned King, I think he gets left out because The Black Cauldron was a massive flop that almost killed Disney's animation studio. True to both, but they've both made small cameos since (tv shows, video games.) but never on the merchandising. Which is weird because, well, Disney. I thinks its mix of their history, plus the fact that their both as heavy metal as Disney gets.
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Feb 4, 2018 10:43
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I think Chernabog just isn't very merchandisable, but makes for a kickass boss fight. According to some brief research, he was originally gonna be the final boss of Kingdom Hearts, but they decided a Sephiroth-a-like would be cooler, so they just threw him in anyway. Ghost Leviathan fucked around with this message at 11:26 on Feb 4, 2018 |
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Feb 4, 2018 11:23
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drrockso20 posted:Don't forget Madame Medusa from The Rescuers, or for that matter the villain from Down Under or the guy from Oliver and Company, they were pretty much all greedy assholes too Funny you should mention that, because Cruella de Vil was apparently gonna be the villain in one of the initial drafts for The Rescuers.
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Feb 4, 2018 12:43
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Folt The Bolt posted:Funny you should mention that, because Cruella de Vil was apparently gonna be the villain in one of the initial drafts for The Rescuers. That would explain a lot. I haven't seen much of the Rescuers, but I recall it involves use of a magazine-loaded double-barrelled shotgun, which is probably up there with the Simpsons nursing home pharmacist's pump-action double-barrelled shotgun in 'relatively understated but ridiculous cartoon guns that actually have a plausible real-life counterpart'. (note that I MIGHT be mixing up The Rescuers and The Tom And Jerry Movie. The latter is a total ripoff of the former, to the best of my memories)
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Feb 4, 2018 13:10
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I always love Madame Medusa's fear of mice because it makes no sense considering she has a PAIR OF CROCODILES as pets. It's be like Boadicea being scared to board a rickshaw drawn by a small peasant despite regularly riding a spiked horsedrawn death-carriage. Also the Rescue Aid Society has the most boring theme song in history. You can tell it's English. 
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Feb 4, 2018 14:08
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Bobbin Threadbare posted:Chernabog is almost literally the devil and really only provided atmosphere to a tone poem, plus he gets "defeated" by a bell and a line of monks. There's not much to include since there's nothing to him beyond an awesome design. As for the Horned King, I think he gets left out because The Black Cauldron was a massive flop that almost killed Disney's animation studio. I've read that Disney still has movie rights to the Prydain books and might be making live action movies though? Granted it's been years now I've been seeing that though.
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Feb 4, 2018 17:29
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BioEnchanted posted:I always love Madame Medusa's fear of mice because it makes no sense considering she has a PAIR OF CROCODILES as pets. It's be like Boadicea being scared to board a rickshaw drawn by a small peasant despite regularly riding a spiked horsedrawn death-carriage. Also the Rescue Aid Society has the most boring theme song in history. You can tell it's English. Uh I mean to be honest I can’t handle cockroaches at all and would much rather deal with an alligator. I could see the same thing with someone being afraid of mice
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Feb 4, 2018 23:34
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Folt The Bolt posted:Funny you should mention that, because Cruella de Vil was apparently gonna be the villain in one of the initial drafts for The Rescuers. Yup, similarly the little girl in the first Rescuers was going to be Oliver's owner at the end of that movie, and at one point in it's development Rescue Rangers was meant to be connected to The Rescue Aid Society in some form(before it became a Chip & Dale vehicle)
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Feb 5, 2018 00:20
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Mcleach from the sequel to the Rescuers is a pretty evil bad guy.
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Feb 5, 2018 04:17
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drrockso20 posted:Yup, similarly the little girl in the first Rescuers was going to be Oliver's owner at the end of that movie, and at one point in it's development Rescue Rangers was meant to be connected to The Rescue Aid Society in some form(before it became a Chip & Dale vehicle) It's funny how close we came to a Disney animated canon shared universe.
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Feb 5, 2018 05:34
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