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cant cook creole bream posted:I'm not that well versed in the xmen stuff and I've had a question for a while now. Who eyactly is Rachel? As far as I can tell, she's sone sort of alternate reality daughter of Jean, who is pretty much the same age. Is that right? She was used as a "hound" which is a mutant used to find other mutants. When she first came to the current timeline, Jean was thought dead.
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Feb 5, 2018 22:34
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cant cook creole bream posted:I'm not that well versed in the xmen stuff and I've had a question for a while now. Who exactly is Rachel? As far as I can tell, she's sone sort of alternate reality daughter of Jean, who is pretty much the same age. Is that right? She's a future child of Scott and Jean from Days of Future Past who got sent back in time, basically.
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Feb 5, 2018 22:35
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Endless Mike posted:She's the daughter of Jean and Cyclops from a possible future where the Sentinels have essentially taken over the planet as the ultimate expression of their directive to protect humanity. Yeah and when she "hounds-out" the spikes and the facial marks come into play. She has also been a host for the Phoenix Force.
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Feb 5, 2018 22:38
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cant cook creole bream posted:I'm not that well versed in the xmen stuff and I've had a question for a while now. Who eyactly is Rachel? As far as I can tell, she's sone sort of alternate reality daughter of Jean, who is pretty much the same age. Is that right? This is actually something I find baffling about Gold, it doesn't explain who Rachel Summers is at all, like at any point, even when there are plot points that rely on her history. She's a character from the classic Claremont run in the 80s. She's Jean Grey and Scott Summers' daughter from the "Days of Future Past" timeline, where mutants are relentlessly persecuted by the government and only a few of the X-Men are still alive. In Rachel's timeline, the Xavier School was attacked by government forces when she was five or six, most of her friends and family (including both her parents and Professor Xavier) were killed, and she was taken by the government for use in black ops experiments. As a mutant with psychic potential, she was brainwashed and trained from an early age to use her psychic powers to detect and hunt down other mutants. She was treated like an animal - a "Hound" - and brought out like a piece of equipment when government forces needed to hunt mutants, something she now remembers with traumatised shame. The spiky costume she occasionally appears in in Gold, and the Maori-style facial tattoos, are her Hound getup. Kitty Pryde, who was now an adult and one of the few survivors of the mutant purges, freed Rachel from the government and rehabilitated her, and they worked as resistance fighters together for a while. Eventually, Rachel was sent through a time portal to the past, only to find that the X-Men's earlier interaction with her timeline had altered the course of history and that she was a sort of temporal orphan from a now-alternate timeline. She became a full-fledged member of the team (with no codename, just Rachel Summers) for a few years, but was eventually attacked by Wolverine in a really goofy piece of writing, abducted to the Mojoverse as she stumbled away holding her wounds together, and re-emerged when she was rescued once more by Kitty, becoming one of the founding members of Excalibur alongside her and Nightcrawler. Rachel is a little-known character among people who aren't familiar with the comics, but she's cool. She's the original "X-Man from the future" character, having made her debut long before Bishop or Cable, and the stories she's in back in the 80s feel fresh and exciting for that reason.
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Feb 5, 2018 22:44
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She changed her name to Rachel Grey at some point when she got mad at Cyclops.
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Feb 5, 2018 22:49
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cant cook creole bream posted:I'm not that well versed in the xmen stuff and I've had a question for a while now. Who exactly is Rachel? As far as I can tell, she's sone sort of alternate reality daughter of Jean, who is pretty much the same age. Is that right? There's an awful lot of meat in your questions but to give you the highlights... Rachel Summers (she now goes by Rachel Grey) is the daughter of Scott and Jean from the "Days of Future Past" reality (Earth-811). She was first introduced in Uncanny X-Men 141. She came back in time to Earth-616 in Uncanny X-Men 184. Upon arriving in our universe, she was shocked to learn that Jean was dead and that Scott was married to Madelyne Pryor. She briefly joined the X-Men and became host for the Phoenix Force but left when Wolverine gutted her to prevent her from killing Selene. Mortally wounded, she wandered into Spiral's Body Shop and wasn't heard from again until Excalibur. She goes on lots of fun adventures with Excalibur until issue #75 at which point she gets lost in the time stream while saving Captain Britain. She's not heard from again in the main 616-timeline for a very long time. I know she comes back around 2004 or 2005, but I forget the circumstances. It is later learned, that she escaped the time stream in the far future where Scott and Maddy's kid Nathan Christopher (also known as Cable) was sent. There she became Mother Askani and started a whole religion/cult dedicated to stopping Apocalypse. (The Adventures of Cyclops and Phoenix 1-4) As to why she wears the spikes - through various flashbacks of her history, we learned that Rachel was a member of the Hounds controlled by Ahab. The Hounds were mutants who were captured and brainwashed into hunting other mutants. Her face was tattooed with lines and the spiked body suit was her costume. For awhile, whenever she lost control of her emotions, the spikes would show up and her costume would reconfigure back into the bodysuit. That's basically the high points. There's a lot there to explore and as with any kind of X-Men time line it gets pretty wonky. You get bits and pieces of her background throughout her first run on Uncanny (184-209) and then some more during the first 75 issues of Excalibur. EDIT: Somehow missed all the other replies. That's what I get for leaving the reply window open while researching issue numbers.
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Feb 5, 2018 22:56
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I think personally that Rachel's mother is actually the Phoenix-Clone-of-Jean Grey like they hinted at in a What If but that part of the Phoenix story has mostly been retconned.
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Feb 5, 2018 22:59
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Yeah Phoenix while Jean was in an egg underwater seems to have been quietly forgotten. During AvX on the moon all the dialogue was as if it was the real Jean who died there.
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Feb 5, 2018 23:01
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As I recall, she returned to the present when Cable killed Apocalypse and stopped his timeline from ever happening, so rather than popping out of the timestream in the far future, Rachel got stuck for awhile and I think Cable found her?
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Feb 5, 2018 23:02
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Endless Mike posted:As I recall, she returned to the present when Cable killed Apocalypse and stopped his timeline from ever happening, so rather than popping out of the timestream in the far future, Rachel got stuck for awhile and I think Cable found her? That rings a bell - you're probably right. I'm far better versed with earlier X-Men than later.
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Feb 5, 2018 23:07
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I've never stumbled across it, but I feel like there must be a reconciliation scene between Wolverine and Kitty at some point, right? Her last interaction with him before she leaves to form Excalibur is pretty much just an eternal repudiation of him for attempting to kill Rachel, but of course they're cool again in modern comics. Did the grudge just get dropped or did a writer address it at some point?
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Feb 5, 2018 23:07
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Thanks for the replies guys. That seems to be kinda weird and messy but fun.
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Feb 5, 2018 23:08
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Android Blues posted:I've never stumbled across it, but I feel like there must be a reconciliation scene between Wolverine and Kitty at some point, right? Her last interaction with him before she leaves to form Excalibur is pretty much just an eternal repudiation of him for attempting to kill Rachel, but of course they're cool again in modern comics. Did the grudge just get dropped or did a writer address it at some point? Kitty went and joined/formed Excalibur because she thought all of the other X-Men were dead. I don't think she was part of other X-teams in a major way until Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, but I could be wrong. Marvel uses a shifting timeline but even ignoring that that's a 15 some odd year gap, that's a lot of other poo poo happening that makes you forget old wounds.
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Feb 5, 2018 23:42
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Android Blues posted:Did the grudge just get dropped or did a writer address it at some point? It just got dropped. cant cook creole bream posted:Thanks for the replies guys. That seems to be kinda weird and messy but fun. It is all of those things - especially Excalibur. Claremont/Davis (and then Davis solo) Excalibur is one of the most fun comics I've ever read. Issues 1-58 are just delightful. Davis leaves after that and Lobdell picks it up for a bit and continues the trend of whimsy until around 75. After that, it kinda loses a bit of magic.
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Feb 5, 2018 23:54
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Aphrodite posted:Yeah Phoenix while Jean was in an egg underwater seems to have been quietly forgotten. At one point (Inferno?) Jean, the Phoenix clone, and Madelyne Pryor's memories all got absorbed into one. So she at least remembers being killed on the moon even if it wasn't really her.
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Feb 6, 2018 00:27
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Rochallor posted:At one point (Inferno?) Jean, the Phoenix clone, and Madelyne Pryor's memories all got absorbed into one. So she at least remembers being killed on the moon even if it wasn't really her. This was from the other end though. Cyclops was talking about how he lost Jean there when he should know it isn't true. Not just in a it felt the same to him way either, it really didn't make much sense if it wasn't the real Jean.
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Feb 6, 2018 00:37
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Aphrodite posted:This was from the other end though. Cyclops was talking about how he lost Jean there when he should know it isn't true. Honestly ignoring the whole actual Jean Grey was in an egg under the ocean while Dark Phoenix happened thing is probably for the best.
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Feb 6, 2018 00:42
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Skwirl posted:Honestly ignoring the whole actual Jean Grey was in an egg under the ocean while Dark Phoenix happened thing is probably for the best. Yeah, the egg Jean Grey was purely so that she could come back for X-Factor, and it's honestly one of the clumsiest retcons of all time, because Dark Phoenix is a great story and saying, "actually, that wasn't really Jean, it was just some clone (and Scott's marriage to Madelyne Pryor didn't count)," messes up literal years of meticulous storytelling. By all accounts Claremont hated the editorial decision that Jean was coming back and he had to break up Scott and Madelyne, and you can see why.
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Feb 6, 2018 00:47
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Android Blues posted:By all accounts Claremont hated the editorial decision that Jean was coming back and he had to break up Scott and Madelyne, and you can see why. Was Madelyne always going to wind up a clone, or was that part of the "bring back Jean" alterations?
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Feb 6, 2018 00:58
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In Uncanny Xmen #15, the the girls night out chapter, Kitty is there. Why is she with Cyclops group now? Does anyone remember what series this happened in? I assume it happened in sometime during Battle of the Atom, but that's not an actual event, at least according to Marvel Unlimited so I don't want to go navigate around in a couple of different X Book series to find out if it was explained in there.
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Feb 6, 2018 01:00
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Galvanik posted:In Uncanny Xmen #15, the the girls night out chapter, Kitty is there. Why is she with Cyclops group now? Does anyone remember what series this happened in? I assume it happened in sometime during Battle of the Atom, but that's not an actual event, at least according to Marvel Unlimited so I don't want to go navigate around in a couple of different X Book series to find out if it was explained in there. They try to force the O5 to go back in time, but it fails and so after the event they decide to leave the Jean Grey School for Team Cyclops. Kitty follows because she's their mentor, and also she felt betrayed by the JGS X-Men. Battle of the Atom was a weird one. There was a Battle of the Atom #1, then 8 tie ins (2 each in 4 different books), then Battle of the Atom #2 as the finale. Aphrodite fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Feb 6, 2018 |
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Feb 6, 2018 01:06
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Skwirl posted:Kitty went and joined/formed Excalibur because she thought all of the other X-Men were dead. I don't think she was part of other X-teams in a major way until Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, but I could be wrong. Marvel uses a shifting timeline but even ignoring that that's a 15 some odd year gap, that's a lot of other poo poo happening that makes you forget old wounds. I think she was the leader for a brief moment around the time Wolverine gave her one of his broken bone claws. Which was also around the time Logan married Viper, I think.
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Feb 6, 2018 01:29
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I liked how Future Deadpool was just kind of killed by falling. That reminds me how I was thinking about the X-men Bendis created for that book, they've basically vanished. I was hoping at least Tempest would show up in the background.
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Feb 6, 2018 01:30
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howe_sam posted:Was Madelyne always going to wind up a clone, or was that part of the "bring back Jean" alterations? I think there was a point in time where Claremont thought he could get rid of Cyclops forever by marrying him off. That very obviously didn't happen.
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Feb 6, 2018 01:53
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Skwirl posted:Kitty went and joined/formed Excalibur because she thought all of the other X-Men were dead. I don't think she was part of other X-teams in a major way until Joss Whedon's Astonishing X-Men, but I could be wrong. Marvel uses a shifting timeline but even ignoring that that's a 15 some odd year gap, that's a lot of other poo poo happening that makes you forget old wounds. She went to college for a bit and at some point had a bad costume with one of Wolverine's broken bone claws. 
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Feb 6, 2018 01:56
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Endless Mike posted:She went to college for a bit and at some point had a bad costume with one of Wolverine's broken bone claws. Why is the claw metal if the only way she got it was all the metal on Wolverine was ripped away and then he broke a claw? Also why does she need a claw? She's a loving ninja who can become intangible at will, not the most powerful X-Man but I'd rather fight Gambit or Storm if we're in a closed room.
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Feb 6, 2018 02:06
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Skwirl posted:Why is the claw metal if the only way she got it was all the metal on Wolverine was ripped away and then he broke a claw?
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Feb 6, 2018 02:11
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twistedmentat posted:I liked how Future Deadpool was just kind of killed by falling. GOLDBALLS
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Feb 6, 2018 02:29
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Skwirl posted:I think there was a point in time where Claremont thought he could get rid of Cyclops forever by marrying him off. That very obviously didn't happen. It wasn't so much that he wanted to get rid Cyclops specifically, more that he didn't want the X-Men to be the same static team forever. The way he envisioned it, was that as time went on, older characters would leave and new ones would come in. Scott was the only one left on the team from the original team. He got married and moved away - his time as a super hero was over. Claremont was super pissed that they yanked him back into X-Factor - especially because he didn't take Madelyne with him. He goes into it pretty deeply on the episode he did with Jay and Miles and they also talk about it when they get up to X-Factor. Rhyno posted:GOLDBALLS Goldballs is awesome. Don't hate on fun.
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Feb 6, 2018 02:48
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He's not, he loves Goldballs.
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Feb 6, 2018 02:55
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Goldballs is my favorite new mutant since Quentin Quire, for completely opposite reasons.Jedi posted:It wasn't so much that he wanted to get rid Cyclops specifically, more that he didn't want the X-Men to be the same static team forever. The way he envisioned it, was that as time went on, older characters would leave and new ones would come in. Scott was the only one left on the team from the original team. He got married and moved away - his time as a super hero was over. Claremont was super pissed that they yanked him back into X-Factor - especially because he didn't take Madelyne with him. He goes into it pretty deeply on the episode he did with Jay and Miles and they also talk about it when they get up to X-Factor. Get rid of was the wrong term, move past would be more accurate. Claremont liked mixing up the team. If you picked a random month and looked at what the team was that month every year it's going to be pretty random, aside from Wolverine and Storm Air Skwirl fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Feb 6, 2018 |
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Feb 6, 2018 03:05
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Tempus was the standout new mutant from Bendis' run but I guess he didn't want anyone else using her judging by the way he burned her to the ground on his way out 
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Feb 6, 2018 03:13
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Aphrodite posted:They try to force the O5 to go back in time, but it fails and so after the event they decide to leave the Jean Grey School for Team Cyclops. Kitty follows because she's their mentor, and also she felt betrayed by the JGS X-Men. Based on how she keeps jumping from team to team these days, I'm not sure if Kitty is a complete flake, is trying badly to emulate Logan being in all teams at once, or is just badly written. Jedi posted:As to why she wears the spikes - through various flashbacks of her history, we learned that Rachel was a member of the Hounds controlled by Ahab. The Hounds were mutants who were captured and brainwashed into hunting other mutants. Her face was tattooed with lines and the spiked body suit was her costume. For awhile, whenever she lost control of her emotions, the spikes would show up and her costume would reconfigure back into the bodysuit. Wait, so the spikes were from her from her time as a brainwashed slave for the Sentinels? It's kind of weird she'd keep that for her costumes.
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Feb 6, 2018 09:46
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Jedi posted:It wasn't so much that he wanted to get rid Cyclops specifically, more that he didn't want the X-Men to be the same static team forever. The way he envisioned it, was that as time went on, older characters would leave and new ones would come in. Scott was the only one left on the team from the original team. He got married and moved away - his time as a super hero was over. Claremont was super pissed that they yanked him back into X-Factor - especially because he didn't take Madelyne with him. He goes into it pretty deeply on the episode he did with Jay and Miles and they also talk about it when they get up to X-Factor. Yeah, it's more like he wanted the characters to develop organically. Cyclops wasn't "written out" while he was married to Madelyne and living in Alaska - he wasn't on the team, but there were still regular interludes where the X-Men would call him to catch up, or the comic would break to look at their domestic life. There was actually a point of drama during that period that turned around Rachel wanting to introduce herself to her father, so he was still an important character. He'd just developed past being an active X-Man. X-Factor in general felt like an exercise in backsliding, where all these characters who had either organically moved on, died, or were no longer relevant were clumsily mashed together and reverted to their 60s status quo selves so that people who'd grown up with them would buy a second book. Bringing Jean back was badly done, but breaking up Scott's marriage might actually have been worse. Madelyne these days is remembered as an evil clone, but for most of the 80s she was Scott Summers' wife and a totally normal, good person.
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Feb 6, 2018 09:54
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Also, the 70s and early 80s in comics were a time when writers were actually allowed to change the status quo. People had longer runs and there was generally less of an expectation that things happening today would be undone next week, so the editorial decision to mess with Claremont's storytelling in order to launch X-Factor was actually pretty out of bounds and an extreme decision in the context of the time.
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Feb 6, 2018 10:00
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How could I forgotten Goldballs? He's buddies with Miles isn't he?
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Feb 6, 2018 13:35
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He's a goddamned legend is what he is.
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Feb 6, 2018 14:15
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Benjamin Deeds is a core cast member of Generation X, and Hijack showed up in Invincible Iron Man not too long ago (which, in fairness, is a Bendis book).
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Feb 6, 2018 14:55
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Madelyne was always a 'clone' of Jean. Claremont wanted Jean to survive the Phoenix Saga, but lose her powers. Then she and Cyclops would leave and have their family. Shooter said she had to die, so Madelyne is just a total Jean clone dropped into her place. All they did later was make it literal.
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Feb 6, 2018 15:00
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Android Blues posted:Also, the 70s and early 80s in comics were a time when writers were actually allowed to change the status quo. People had longer runs and there was generally less of an expectation that things happening today would be undone next week, so the editorial decision to mess with Claremont's storytelling in order to launch X-Factor was actually pretty out of bounds and an extreme decision in the context of the time. My favourite part of the whole thing is that Kurt Busiek, who I don't think has ever done any X-Men work, was the one who proposed the idea of Dark Phoenix being a clone of Jean.
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Feb 6, 2018 17:47
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