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The funny thing about believing "the fact that devils are required to consume humans makes them not human (because killing humans is inhumane)" is that, if you follow that logic to it's endpoint, it actually leads to the devils being more human than most the human characters in the comic. The devils may be murders one-and-all, but at least they're not culpable!
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Feb 19, 2018 06:28
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Also if my soul flame was just going to get snuffed out anyway after my death I'd probably be fine with making a pact and having the black flame slowly convert my soul flame. I don't think it's actually stated that there's a downside to that unless you overload yourself with pacts. Maybe it means something of your personality lives on after you die.
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Feb 19, 2018 06:32
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paragon1 posted:Not in this case. I asked Abaddon in this very thread what constitutes a demon and the answer was "It's a general term for "really bad things" and not "another word for devils". Ah. I must have been remembering something else, then.
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Feb 19, 2018 09:45
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Schwarzwald posted:God is a liar. This is canon. It's kind of beautiful that readers of this story are so willing to rebel against its writer.
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Feb 19, 2018 12:14
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"I am a consummate liar." - Abbadon
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Feb 19, 2018 13:10
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and so thread learns the truth of fiction
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Feb 19, 2018 14:30
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I wonder what Allison's roommates are up to
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Feb 19, 2018 16:50
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PetraCore posted:Yeah when I said angelic immortality was a constant state of change I was referring to how they come out of the cocoon with their 'core self' intact but memories and poo poo hazy... like there's potential for change between one incarnation and another, as opposed to being ironclad. And the sense of self also seems to get dreamlike, since White Chain was iirc upset that Liminal Blossom would forget their (her? probably her) gender stuff upon resetting and Blossom was like 'gently caress that noise I'll learn again what I learned this time but don't bother getting reset for me since they're executing me anyway'. I'm increasingly suspicious of the angels' "reincarnation" generally, it's pretty heavily implied effectively nothing gets retained in rebirth and everything that could have made the old angel themselves just dies
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Feb 19, 2018 17:33
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Tarezax posted:Humans die eventually and nothing will stop it, unless extraordinary methods are employed. We've seen one method: fruit from a tree watered by the blood of maidens. How is that any different from a devil needing to consume the flame from humans to extend their lifespan? PetraCore posted:Cio's a self-loathing addict who has trouble accurately self-reporting due to the unfortunately terminal condition of personhood. PetraCore posted:I haven't said Cio is a poor little innocent who was horribly abused by Allison, you keep strawmanning me. Joe Slowboat posted:I'm honestly not certain how this scene plus the most recent page is supposed to help your case, rather than be literally the definition of dramatic irony? This would be dramatic irony if we knew something that the characters didn't, but Cio and the other devils have been 99% up front about what they are. The dramatic beat here is that Allison, (aside from surviving what was very much drawn to look like a deadly gutting,) accepts Cio in spite of having her illusions about Cio's nature violently stripped away. Allison has just had a first hand experience with realizing that a powerful part of herself is sociopathic, and very much needs to believe that a person can still be good and whole despite being capable of brutal murders. Can she similarly guide Cio to becoming a more authentic version of herself by coming to terms with Yabalchoeath? Maybe. But Cio is always going to be a devil. This doesn't detract from the nobility and tragedy of Cio's story: Cio will never be able to become a simple fan fiction writer, because that identity is rooted in denial of an inherent part of herself. Someone who learns how to make a life for themselves while working around a condition or flaw or illness they can never excise, sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing, and the friends who accept them anyway... To me, that's a far more human and interesting story than, "it turns out that even the worst and most flawed people can simply stop being bad & sad, and resolve all of their flaws through The Power of Friendship (and lesbian crushes.)" Dead Reckoning fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 18:38
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Dead Reckoning posted:This doesn't detract from the nobility and tragedy of Cio's story: Cio will never be able to become a simple fan fiction writer, because that identity is rooted in denial of an inherent part of herself. Someone who learns how to make a life for themselves while working around a condition or flaw or illness they can never excise, sometimes succeeding, sometimes failing, and the friends who accept them anyway... To me, that's a far more human and interesting story than, "it turns out that even the worst and most flawed people can simply stop being bad & sad, and resolve all of their flaws through The Power of Friendship (and lesbian crushes.)" Here's the thing: no one here is saying that Cio isn't a "horrifying murder beast," they're arguing that she's a person -- which you yourself seem to concede in this paragraph. (I apologize if I read past someone who was saying that.)
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Feb 19, 2018 18:48
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Cio has a personality, but isn't a person in the sense of being human, because her fundamental drives and needs are alien. This is why people are so fascinated with psychopaths: beings whose appearance and affect mirrors our own, but who underneath do not share our feelings and humanity. Cio clearly has a need for belonging and acceptance, apparently unusual for a devil, and it's going to be interesting to see how she's going to reconcile that with the fact that she is a devil and her very nature/presence is inimical to the well-being of everyone around her. (Since denial didn't work.)
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Feb 19, 2018 20:16
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it seemed to be working all right up until she got dragged back into the game kicking and screaming
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Feb 19, 2018 20:24
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Dead Reckoning posted:Cio has a personality, but isn't a person in the sense of being human, because her fundamental drives and needs are alien. This is why people are so fascinated with psychopaths: beings whose appearance and affect mirrors our own, but who underneath do not share our feelings and humanity. So basically you've got a special specific definition of 'people' that isn't the definition anyone else in here is using and then you act like we're being naive when we don't come to the same conclusions you did because you're using a different vocabulary? Because if your argument all along was that Cio isn't human and while there's things about her and her arc that's relatable to humans (given that the writer and audience are human) it's too simplistic to gloss over the drives and urges that come with being a devil and not a human, that's... that's correct? I don't think anyone has been arguing against that? * Sometimes humans are really really bad or have brain damage or both, psssst.
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Feb 19, 2018 20:40
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Tollymain posted:it seemed to be working all right up until she got dragged back into the game kicking and screaming Remember that at the start of the story she was supporting herself by working as her husband's bookkeeper, who was in the business of flesh trading. So she wasn't really trying to forge a more noble place in the world until she decided that maybe tagging along with a hero was what she needed.
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Feb 19, 2018 20:41
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oh im not saying she was morally particularly good but she was doing all right with keeping on the course of "don't turn into a monster that eats the flesh of humans not even because they need to but because they want to"
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Feb 19, 2018 20:55
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I think it'll come to pass the "inherent nature" of characters like Cio and White Chain will actually be the forms they've come to take now rather than the expected nature of their races. It's not a case of fighting their nature, but what this society tells them their nature should be. Cio correctly notes this when talking about White Chain suppressing what she truely is, but misses the mark when describing herself because she assumes her true nature is what it was before. I'd guess this is where this Abaddon post comes back into play. White Chain will never not be a Petal Knight. Same as Delicious said of herself, every reincarnation will eventually veer back to that same point unconsciously. Cio is just the latest personality this bit of black flame is wearing, but that personality doesn't have the same wants, desires and flaws as Yabalchoath. The only thing they share is a history and a need to keep their form coherent. Possibly by eating humans, but that's now a act beyond Cio's nature as Cio, even if it is an option given her nature as a devil. That last sentence might be wrong as I could totally still see Cio eating someone if they were an antagonist, but she is clearly past eating her companions which Yabalchoath would have done happily.
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Feb 19, 2018 20:55
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Dead Reckoning posted:You can't keep calling Cio an addict unless you explain how "consuming human soul flames" is a disorder for devils. An addiction is not the same as a compulsion, which is not the same as a biological drive. Words have meaning. While needing human soul flames to survive is a biological drive, saying that it can't also be an addiction is like an saying alcoholic isn't an addict since humans need to drink fluids to survive, therefore alcoholism is just a biological drive and also that there's no point in trying to fight it because you can't deny your nature.
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Feb 19, 2018 20:56
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Maduo posted:I think it'll come to pass the "inherent nature" of characters like Cio and White Chain will actually be the forms they've come to take now rather than the expected nature of their races. It's not a case of fighting their nature, but what this society tells them their nature should be. Cio correctly notes this when talking about White Chain suppressing what she truely is, but misses the mark when describing herself because she assumes her true nature is what it was before.
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Feb 19, 2018 20:58
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Dead Reckoning posted:Cio has a personality, but isn't a person in the sense of being human, because her fundamental drives and needs are alien. This is why people are so fascinated with psychopaths: beings whose appearance and affect mirrors our own, but who underneath do not share our feelings and humanity. I think I understand what you getting at, but by using "person" and "human" interchangeably you are really confusing your point. Like, in this one paragraph you've written that being a person is strictly a matter of being biologically human but also that psychopaths lack humanness despite being (biologically) human. I get the impression that what you were trying to say was that Cio's mindset as a devil person is intrinsically different from that of a human person (in the say way a psychopathic human has a mindset that's different from a "typical" human), and some readers here have been playing down that difference. But, that isn't actually what you wrote. I'm not trying to rag on you, or anything, I just want to point out why people are arguing past you. Schwarzwald fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Feb 19, 2018 |
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Feb 19, 2018 21:00
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y'know what im still interested in? whether or not the devil 'caste system' (for lack of a better expression coming to mind) was deliberately designed in full or in part or if it was an entirely emergent property of masking the hot black flame
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Feb 19, 2018 21:00
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A.o.D. posted:Remember that at the start of the story she was supporting herself by working as her husband's bookkeeper, who was in the business of flesh trading.
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Feb 19, 2018 21:00
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A.o.D. posted:Remember that at the start of the story she was supporting herself by working as her husband's bookkeeper, who was in the business of flesh trading. So she wasn't really trying to forge a more noble place in the world until she decided that maybe tagging along with a hero was what she needed. I didn't really get the sense that she'd opted for that job, as opposed to being forced into it by Praman Nand's power over her in her diminished state. Hence her initial interest in Allison -- having a friendly hero around means protection from her old husband/boss. e:f,b
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Feb 19, 2018 21:10
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Poltergrift posted:I didn't really get the sense that she'd opted for that job, as opposed to being forced into it by Praman Nand's power over her in her diminished state. Hence her initial interest in Allison -- having a friendly hero around means protection from her old husband/boss.
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Feb 19, 2018 21:13
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What can change the nature of man? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcAFTipVyWw&t=261s
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Feb 19, 2018 23:39
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MonsieurChoc posted:What can change the nature of man? Was, uh, really expecting something more Planescape Torment related there.
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Feb 19, 2018 23:44
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shirts and skins posted:Was, uh, really expecting something more Planescape Torment related there. 
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Feb 19, 2018 23:54
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ThaumPenguin posted:I wonder what Allison's roommates are up to When she teleported the boat off Mottom's palace, I hoped she'd crashed it right into her old apartment building.
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Feb 20, 2018 00:40
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Oh okay, Dead Reckoning just doesn't consider non-human sophonts to "count" as people.
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Feb 20, 2018 01:04
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More like Dead Racist.
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Feb 20, 2018 01:14
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true leftist posted:we get the best webcomic for ten years and i have to sit here and watch a loving pack of computer janitors joylessly debate their pointless interpretations of the fluff in an untiring effort to prove that these characters are not characters in the "shines a light on an aspect of human nature" sense, which is too close to literature and would frighten the nerds, but instead are a collection of computer models whose rules have been clearly delineated in an offsite manual so they can be fully comprehended and predicted without any risk of surprise, uncertainty or illumination
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Feb 20, 2018 01:44
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I am excited to see where Cio goes as a character. 
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Feb 20, 2018 02:04
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Dead Reckoning posted:Cio has a personality, but isn't a person in the sense of being human, because her fundamental drives and needs are alien. This is why people are so fascinated with psychopaths: beings whose appearance and affect mirrors our own, but who underneath do not share our feelings and humanity. Who cares if she's not human? A corpse is human, but it's not a person. Someone who has experienced brain dead isn't a person any more either, even if their heart still pumps and their lungs still breathe. Personhood is about being a distinct sapient entity, not about being a member of the home sapiens sapiens species.
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Feb 20, 2018 05:05
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boy i sure hope abbadon is ok
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Feb 20, 2018 05:33
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Bongo Bill posted:Ah. I must have been remembering something else, then. You were remembering normal everyday life conversations with people who don't play D&D or read K6BD, probably. 
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Feb 20, 2018 09:48
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How did we go from "Cio has been kind of terrible to Allison so Allison putting down a hard line doesn't make Allison the worst ever" to "Cio isn't a person" 
Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 15:59 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 15:19
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Some goons are kind of notoriously bad at nuance
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Feb 20, 2018 15:23
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The best part is this isnt at all surprising coming from Dead Reckoning, who does this about every single topic and interprets things that happen in the real world the same exact way. Its not just him being bad at comics!
GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 15:43 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 15:25
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flatluigi posted:
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Feb 20, 2018 15:38
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Guys guys ok, in order to establish personhood for Cio once and for all Allison will have to totally redo the entire social order of Throne, shaping it into a liberal democracy. They we will see whether Cio and other devils are enfranchised to vote bing bong so simple
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Feb 20, 2018 15:46
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