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GlyphGryph posted:See now this is why people might be upset. The change isnt "we removed corv exploration because it was frustrating and tedious and replaced it with something that is more fun or less tedious" its somewhere between "we removed exploration altogether" and "and we left it equally if not made it more tedious and made it WAY more frustrating and also far more expensive to do" Because corvette exploration isn't a meaningful mechanic. it's something you do every game before you even unpause it and never really have to do again. As you said, it's free, it involves a lot of clicking, but there's no reason to ever not do it and no reason to do it any differently from game to game. It's part of the game setup, essentially. Making exploration a thing is far more true when it's something you have to keep doing and when doing it is an investment. Do you build more science ships and hire more leaders? Do you build something else and spend the money on something else? Which way you explore is more significant when you have to choose a way to go rather than just going all ways with all your ships. You could replace corvette exploration with a steadily automatically low intel sensor coverage and it would be functionally identical, but that's not an interesting mechanic either. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:04 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 14:02
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GlyphGryph posted:I never found this to actually work. Since Utopia (I think, could be Synthetic Dawn), ships on evasive automatically avoid systems with hostiles.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:02
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the game was designed with a certain pace of exploration in the early game, via science ships. These didn't check systems very fast, and queued orders would last a while. But because corvette exploration was possible, it essentially ended up as mandatory for Good Play...so youd have to split up your corvettes and do a bunch of clicking around and constantly babysit them because theyd always be blundering into things and also you needed to check for planets n poo poo. The sensor requirement basically hard-codes the intended attention budget & exploration mechanic so that you don't 'have' to do this. also makes it so that exploration speed is dependent on how much you decide to commit to science leaders, which is a good tradeoff.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:02
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The point of the change is to slow down exploration, and it succeeds in that. With corvette exploration you could have mapped out the location of every habitable planet in quarter of the galaxy by the time you've surveyed 3 systems. Now you have to either invest in rapid exploration or forego it, and there's a limit to how fast it can be done. It might be more time consuming to have to explore systems this way, but the change was made for the same reason you don't just start the game with the location of every planet revealed already. The exploration mechanic and associated decisions are designed to be a significant part of the early game.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:04
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GlyphGryph posted:I never found this to actually work. OwlFancier posted:Because corvette exploration isn't a meaningful mechanic. it's something you do every game before you even unpause it and never really have to do again. As you said, it's free, it involves a lot of clicking, but there's no reason to ever not do it and no reason to do it any differently from game to game. It's part of the game setup, essentially.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:06
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If I understand the claims system properly as well it should also be possible to engage in limited warfare as well, so your inability to plan with perfect knowledge due to limited exploration capacity is offset by an improved ability to fix issues that crop up later if an enemy goes past a choke point you want to take, and in a way that encourages people to get into fights with each other in the early game, which are all good things, IMO.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:12
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canepazzo posted:Since Utopia (I think, could be Synthetic Dawn), ships on evasive automatically avoid systems with hostiles.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:12
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So just to get this straight: Exploration is identical, but the tedium has been moved later into the game and spread out a bit more Goddamn I thought maybe they could have at least added an autoexplore/voyage of discovery option to science ships but no, its literally more expensive/more tedious and moved to a time in the game when you already have multiple other things to do GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 14:17 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 14:15
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Splicer posted:I wish I could flag a hostile system as Really Hostile so random reinforcements didn't occasionally path through dimensional horrors and the like I seem to recall from one of the streams that this is a thing now in 2.0, you can designate a system as hostile so that pathing automatically avoids it. Edit: GlyphGryph posted:Goddamn I thought maybe they could have at least added an autoexplore/voyage of discovery option to science ships but no, its literally more expensive/more tedious and moved to a time in the game when you already have multiple other things to do ...there...IS an autoexplore tech that comes up fairly early, and has been for a while? I think you're getting real mad here without knowing all the facts on the ground.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:15
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GlyphGryph posted:So just to get this straight: What exactly do you want out of exploration if you want it to be completely separate from the rest of the game both economically and attentively? Like, again if it's going to be A Thing then it should meaningfully interact with other parts of the game.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:16
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GlyphGryph posted:So just to get this straight: there's a tech for autoexplore
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Feb 20, 2018 14:17
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There is a tech for autosurvey and it was absurdly late in the tech tree and super expensive last time i played (maybe its been moved earlier and made cheaper), if theres a tech for any type of actual exploration (and surveying is not that) it would be super nice but it must be new and frankly I doubt it. Like I am not opposed to slower paced science ship exploration if they were giving us the tools to do that but it sounds like they arent doing anything of the sort so yeah in lieue of that I will at least miss it being possible to do it cheaply if not in a particularly engaging way.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:19
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appropriatemetaphor posted:Keep seeing people saying they'll miss "corvette exploration". What's there to miss? Like was that actually fun for people? I don't get it. I didn't mind it and once I figured out how to do it, it was a quick and easy way to find out all kinds of poo poo. It also made it so you didn't have to risk losing a scientist to space monsters. So I might miss how busted it is, but the new system is probably better overall.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:19
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There's also the issue where "having other things to do" is going to be difficult if you haven't explored anywhere yet. Your rate of exploration is going to dictate how many other things you have to do.GlyphGryph posted:There is a tech for autosurvey and it was absurdly late in the tech tree and super expensive last time i played (maybe its been moved earlier and made cheaper), if theres a tech for any type of actual exploration (and surveying is not that) it would be super nice but it must be new and frankly I doubt it. It has been moved to very early in the tree for some time now and there is a whole ascension path about exploration. And once more, exploring without surveying is going to be of extremely limited utility in the new patch, so surveying definitely is exploring.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:20
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Tomn posted:I seem to recall from one of the streams that this is a thing now in 2.0, you can designate a system as hostile so that pathing automatically avoids it. TheDeadlyShoe posted:there's a tech for autoexplore
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Feb 20, 2018 14:20
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Reveilled posted:My first paradox game was Europa Universallis 1, how familiar are you with paradox? But have YOU played Airfix Dogfighter?  Just kidding, neither have I. Although I think I remember your nick back from Paradox OT. Whatsup ancient Paradox player buddy.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:22
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GlyphGryph posted:There is a tech for autosurvey and it was absurdly late in the tech tree and super expensive last time i played (maybe its been moved earlier and made cheaper), if theres a tech for any type of actual exploration (and surveying is not that) it would be super nice but it must be new and frankly I doubt it. Step 1: Get auto-survey tech mod from workshop Step 2: Quit gettin’ mad bout video games Step 3: Everything you ever wanted
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Feb 20, 2018 14:24
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Like if the autotech included: autosurvey systems autoexplore plus survey habitables simple autoexplore, basic data on everything autodiplomatic exploration (explore in a way meant to maximize chance of encountering other civs) explore in area (define an area you want fully explored) as options, that would be a huge qol improvement that would make me happy to say gently caress corvettes forever but that aint happened, all the explore options are just as tedious now but also dumber
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Feb 20, 2018 14:25
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Auto-exploration is tier1cost3 atm, which is the same cost as grade 2 shields and ai colony ships. It's locked until 10 years into the game, after which you get increasingly high odds to get it based on # of colonies and time passed. of course, tech is being rebalanced in Cherryh... Splicer posted:I think they mean explore but don't scan. Which I would also like TBH. well, you can do corvette exploration (as it were) as soon as you get the first sensor tech. not sure how hard that'll be.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:26
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GlyphGryph posted:There is a tech for autosurvey and it was absurdly late in the tech tree and super expensive last time i played (maybe its been moved earlier and made cheaper), if theres a tech for any type of actual exploration (and surveying is not that) it would be super nice but it must be new and frankly I doubt it.  In 1.9 it's a tier 1 gated behind the +5% research speed one with a time based multiplier. Dump a +computers scientist into Physics and you'll have it within a decade. I'm hoping with the revised tech tree it'll show up sooner.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:26
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:well, you can do corvette exploration (as it were) as soon as you get the first sensor tech. not sure how hard that'll be.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:29
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:well, you can do corvette exploration (as it were) as soon as you get the first sensor tech. not sure how hard that'll be.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:29
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I legit don't get the person who likes exploration but whose preferred implementation of it involves doing nothing after the first day ingame and getting all the tools to do it for free? Like what is exploration if not slowly uncovering more things and building a picture of your surroundings with limited resources?
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Feb 20, 2018 14:32
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Splicer posted:I wish I had a big bag of money. Hey, your lawyer just called, apparently you had a distant German relation who left a bag of Weimar-era German Marks to you. GlyphGryph posted:Like if the autotech included: I have to admit, speaking personally I've never thought the "exploration" side of exploration was all that important to me. The only part that mattered to me was finding habitable planets, otherwise I was fine just surveying everything (and in fact aside from my immediate local region this was pretty much all I did, I never went all-in on corvette exploration). Running into new empires was something of a bother in my view, as making contact meant potentially getting borders closed and barring me from sweet, sweet anomaly research. I guess I can see how the new changes leave you a bit cold if you really liked the idea of zipping through the galaxy without surveying, but judging from the reaction here that wasn't a major priority for a lot of people. Edit: Like, part of my initial confusion reading your posts was that surveying WAS exploration to my mind.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:34
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I fully realize there are people like you who dont even remotely recognize the concept of exploration or have any desire to do it, I just dont get why you feel the need to be so gleefully dismissive of the people who do. I dont understand people who like fighting ships in this game or having to loving customize them which is the most painful thing that mostly serves as a player punishment for screwing up somehow and engaging an enemy where that might matter, but like, I understand thats appealing to people and am not going to get excited over them removing the building of fleets and customization of ships or whatever.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:36
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How do the changes to sharing survey information interact with the exploration tradition that rewards you for surveying? In the past it made it so you would never ever want to accept trade deals including Star Charts because it just removed a ton of potential benefit.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:36
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GlyphGryph posted:I fully realize there are people like you who dont even remotely recognize the concept of exploration or have any desire to do it, I just dont get why you feel the need to be so gleefully dismissive of the people who do. I suspect it's less a matter of being "gleefully dismissive" and more "We literally don't understand why you want this specific thing and are construing your complaints as a slur against the changes we personally do appreciate." And by "literally don't understand" I mean in the sense of "Wait, this is something you actually wanted?" Speaking personally I was real confused reading your posts for a while because in my mind surveying IS exploring.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:38
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Meanwhile I have trouble seeing how people could see slowly scanning down every barren rock to the minutest detail and barely venturing beyond the border of civilization to be "exploring" in a genre dominated by Star Trek.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:41
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I don't really think there's very much final frontiery about space if you just shotgun what are essentially free probes out in every direction and have half the galaxy mapped before you finish your first colony. Like literally just replace exploration with an automatic expanding sensor centered on the homeworld at that point.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:44
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GlyphGryph posted:Meanwhile I have trouble seeing how people could see slowly scanning down every barren rock to the minutest detail and barely venturing beyond the border of civilization to be "exploring" in a genre dominated by Star Trek. Eh, I take my cues from the Royal Navy. Any rando can sail past a spit of land, but real exploration happens when someone carefully conducts a series of hydrographic surveys, charts the coastlines, examines the area for interesting resources, and meets up with the natives to leave good first impressions and make diplomatic contacts.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:47
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Yeah but OwlFancier, but you literally dont understand any possible appeal for exploration so your opinion on the matter is kind of weak. I was hoping removing corv exploration was goin to be part of a move towards MORE voyage-like journeys of discovery and its turns out to be less and towards something even more akin to exactly what you just described than what we had before.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:50
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GlyphGryph posted:Yeah but OwlFancier, but you literally dont understand any possible appeal for exploration so your opinion on the matter is kind of weak. I... thought I was quite clear that I find the proposed new system very appealing precisely because it's making exploration into a meaningful and involved mechanic, and that I don't even see how the corvette approach is exploration because it's one step removed from just automatically revealing the map as the game progresses, it's completely void of decision making, cost, involvement in the rest of the game, anything. You get infromation handed to you omnidirectionally from the things you start with very quickly in every game, that's barely a mechanic much less "exploration". As opposed to the new approach where you have to commit important resources towards it and have to make decisions about where you want to go, and whether you want to risk the resources you've got. That is exploration as a mechanic. And it's good? As far as I can tell you're advocating for automating it almost entirely and also that it shouldn't cost anything, how on earth is that an interesting thing? OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 14:53
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The plot structure of Star Trek episodes did kinda make it feel like they were on a sightseeing tour, just aimlessly cruising past poo poo until something cool randomly happened. That's because the grunt work of any actual exploration mission isn't something that a TV show would want to bore audiences with. But while Stellaris can't plausibly just ignore all that busywork (because that's how you determine a system's worth), it does the next best thing by making it a reasonably quick process of scanning rocks and stuff and moving on, only stopping to bother you if it finds something weird. All the boring stuff can happen off screen while you do something else in the game. Corv exploration can do the same "skip to the interesting part" thing except that it can't find anomalies. So the "interesting parts" in that case are limited to things that are obvious when entering a system: spotting units from alien empires (which you can't do anything about without deciphering communications), finding big rear end space ruins, or getting blown up by/running from space monsters. Risking basic corvs on the last of these was the most useful thing about it but was also unlike anything I remember happening in an average Star Trek episode. Really only the second one matches the premise for a Trek episode, but a corv can only note where ruins and such are, it can't discover anything about them.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:55
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Corvette exploration I suppose is quite star trekky in that throwing disposable idiots at planets to see what kills them is very inkeeping with the series.
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Feb 20, 2018 14:57
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New rare technology "Redshirt Away Missions" increases the chance of science vessels withdrawing from combat before getting blown up by sending shuttles of disposable nobodies at any threats.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:00
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OnceIWasAnOstrich posted:How do the changes to sharing survey information interact with the exploration tradition that rewards you for surveying? In the past it made it so you would never ever want to accept trade deals including Star Charts because it just removed a ton of potential benefit. IIRC, there is no more star charts trading- but any empire's *claimed* space counts as surveyed when you gain communications with them.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:04
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Unrelated, but has anyone ever found "hostile first contact policies" to be useful? For that matter, has anyone ever MET an alien empire that used hostile first contact policies? I always found it kinda risky and pointless. Come to think of it, 2.0 might actually make hostile first contact a potentially useful strategy - if you can attack and take over outposts before making official contact, bam, you just stole some territory from these other suckers before they could even lodge a protest.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:12
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GlyphGryph posted:I never found this to actually work. It does work. Ships in evasive stance will avoid systems with known hostiles and refuse to enter them even when ordered, will flee from any system that contains hostiles, and will try to emergency FTL out of any battles they end up in. The problem arises when they arrive in an unscanned system and the hostiles are close enough to their entry point to immediately aggro on them. They won't be able to leave (due to drive cooldown) before they're attacked, and early-game science ships are so frail that they'll explode from the first round of attacks, before they can e-FTL.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:15
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Tomn posted:Unrelated, but has anyone ever found "hostile first contact policies" to be useful? For that matter, has anyone ever MET an alien empire that used hostile first contact policies? I always found it kinda risky and pointless. It's sensible if you're planning to gently caress everyone up ASAP because you can chase off their science ships, and in the new patch, you'll also be able to stop them claiming land by nuking their constructors.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:19
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Fellblade posted:Step 1: Get auto-survey tech mod from workshop Yep. Torrannor posted:Whelp, the hype is over. I was actually super pumped for Cherryh and Apocalypse. I never bought Synthetic dawn, I don't really care for robots. And I never bought the plantoid species pack, it didn't seem necessary. In contrast to CK2, where I admit to having bought every single portrait pack (but none of the troop packs, those were stupid). But was in a really good mood last Friday, looking at the Steam page and seeing the sales. So I wanted to buy Synthetic Dawn, the plantoid pack and even upgrade my game to the Nova edition. I really like the business model of Paradox, so I figured I could toss them 4 Euros, even if I didn't need anything from the Nova pack (the arachnoid is ugly). But then I had bullshit trouble with PayPal, and I couldn't sort it out till today. I can't buy from the Paradox store at all. I get the message "We're currently unable to process any payments from your region. We apologize for any inconvenience" and the FAQ shows the following: Paradox's really helpful FAQ posted:NEW - Why can't you process payments from my region?
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