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OnceIWasAnOstrich posted:How do the changes to sharing survey information interact with the exploration tradition that rewards you for surveying? In the past it made it so you would never ever want to accept trade deals including Star Charts because it just removed a ton of potential benefit. Whenever you get communications with a new empire it automatically identifies their owned systems. I'm not sure whether this counts as surveying though, but I think it does. There's no longer the ability to trade start charts.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:40
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As you can't own a system without having completely surveyed it one would assume that it includes survey data.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:42
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Is Cherryh going to let me join in wars so I can prop up the plucky underdog?
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Feb 20, 2018 15:44
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GotLag posted:Is Cherryh going to let me join in wars so I can prop up the plucky underdog? I want to have my space CIA install a puppet dictator in another empire, whose immediate successor will be dangerously hostile to me.
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Feb 20, 2018 15:47
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OwlFancier posted:I don't really think there's very much final frontiery about space if you just shotgun what are essentially free probes out in every direction and have half the galaxy mapped before you finish your first colony. Think of it like mission protocols. If I want to make contact with someone I'll fire a ship on a straight-line trip around the core, with some waypoints along the way to keep it in track. If I want to scout out an area I'll click all the stars in the area. If I want to find somewhere to colonise I'll follow up an area scout by clicking "survey" on all the systems with planets. Once you've unlocked automatic exploration why /not/ make these one-button exploration profiles called "Planetary Survey Corps", "Colonisation Initiative", and "SETI Protocols"? With the new sensors/hyperlanes the area survey could be a right-click "everything within X jumps of this system".
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Feb 20, 2018 15:53
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I am glad at least some folks like Splicer understand what I am getting at and it still boggles my mind mind that people like OwlFancier just, like, cant in any way understand the appeal of exploratory missions (and also seem inable to understand that I didnt think the current implementation was great I just thought it was better than nothing)
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Feb 20, 2018 16:00
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deadly_pudding posted:I want to have my space CIA install a puppet dictator in another empire, whose immediate successor will be dangerously hostile to me. Me too.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:01
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GlyphGryph posted:I am glad at least some folks like Splicer understand what I am getting at and it still boggles my mind mind that people like OwlFancier just, like, cant in any way understand the appeal of exploratory missions (and also seem inable to understand that I didnt think the current implementation was great I just thought it was better than nothing) I get it, but everyone else has the limitation, too, so it's a legit change. Just have corvettes ready to escort your science ships.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:02
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One of the more interesting examples of exploration mechanics is the New Horizons event chain that sends the Enterprise off to hunt the Xindi. You don't actually see your ship move, but you get a vague sense of what's out in that direction as well as some cool events.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:03
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:IIRC, there is no more star charts trading- but any empire's *claimed* space counts as surveyed when you gain communications with them. Yeah you can't claim a thing unless you've fully surveyed it, so any claimed system owned by someone else is considered fully surveyed. Hopefully after 2.0 they can get around to doing the mid-game recurring anomalies thing so science ships have things to do later that isn't assisting worlds with science beams from orbit.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:05
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GunnerJ posted:Corv exploration can do the same "skip to the interesting part" thing except that it can't find anomalies. So the "interesting parts" in that case are limited to things that are obvious when entering a system: spotting units from alien empires (which you can't do anything about without deciphering communications), finding big rear end space ruins, or getting blown up by/running from space monsters. Risking basic corvs on the last of these was the most useful thing about it but was also unlike anything I remember happening in an average Star Trek episode. Really only the second one matches the premise for a Trek episode, but a corv can only note where ruins and such are, it can't discover anything about them. The first one, making contact with new civilizations, is absolutely one of the the fundamental premises. Obviously I would prefer to explore with science ships so they can do the second in more depth if it comes up but that wasnt previously reasonable. As to the third, encountering serious risks to the ship and crew were very normal, its just that in game science ships cant do anything about them. Oh also if they did an autoexplore they could also have our discovery ships compile documented reports of their findings every now and again which would be great :3 Obviously not gonna happen though 
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Feb 20, 2018 16:07
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What do you even mean by "exploratory missions" because no, I don't understand what's interesting about throwing free corvettes into crystals randomly while almost immediately having everything mapped out, you're doing neither any exploration nor does it matter what happens to them.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:07
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UltraRed posted:I get it, but everyone else has the limitation, too, so it's a legit change. I cant comprehend what this is supposed to mean. What does the first part have to do with the second?
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Feb 20, 2018 16:08
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deadly_pudding posted:I want to have my space CIA install a puppet dictator in another empire, whose immediate successor will be dangerously hostile to me. Thirded
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Feb 20, 2018 16:09
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I also don't understand how throwing corvettes at poo poo is somehow good exploration, yet doing the exact same thing with science vessels is somehow not. And you can still do corvette exploration you just need +1 sensor range.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:14
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Like if you really want to you can throw science vessels across the galaxy for no reason but that's never going to be a smart investment unless you do it via a wormhole.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:17
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OwlFancier posted:for no reason Theres been like five explicit reasons given to do it, I think your brain might just be broken
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Feb 20, 2018 16:20
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Torrannor posted:Whelp, the hype is over. I was actually super pumped for Cherryh and Apocalypse. I never bought Synthetic dawn, I don't really care for robots. And I never bought the plantoid species pack, it didn't seem necessary. In contrast to CK2, where I admit to having bought every single portrait pack (but none of the troop packs, those were stupid). But was in a really good mood last Friday, looking at the Steam page and seeing the sales. So I wanted to buy Synthetic Dawn, the plantoid pack and even upgrade my game to the Nova edition. I really like the business model of Paradox, so I figured I could toss them 4 Euros, even if I didn't need anything from the Nova pack (the arachnoid is ugly). But then I had bullshit trouble with PayPal, and I couldn't sort it out till today. I wanna say "source your quote" but just in case you're serious the steam sale was run by steam and they don't give a drat about a random game having an expansion just two days after their sale. Anyways, try the Paradox Plaza Store, they also had a sale going and it was still on as of yesterday. You can get a steam key from them.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:21
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The only reason even in the current game you would want to do that is to make contact with empires, which is largely academic because you can't do anything useful with empires that are far away other than possibly trade with them. It's a fairly poo poo reason and definitely not useful in the early game because you don't need to trade until much later, at which point you'll start making contact automatically anyway. Fundamentally you only have a material reason to care about your local space, in which case the patch is still improving it by adding in gates/wormholes which serve to increase what constitutes local space. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 16:25 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 16:22
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OwlFancier posted:The only reason even in the current game you would want to do that is to make contact with empires, which is largely academic because you can't do anything useful with empires that are far away other than possibly trade with them. It's a fairly poo poo reason and definitely not useful in the early game because you don't need to trade until much later, at which point you'll start making contact automatically anyway. If I understand GlyphGryph correctly, he enjoys the concept and theme of exploration, as defined as "racing across the galaxy, uncovering the map, and making contact with strange new people." Like, not as a practical, mechanical "good game design" thing, as a "this pushes my emotional buttons in the right way" thing. With that in mind, both corvette-exploration and science ship exploration SORTA work in that regard, but requires a bunch of tedious clicking. Some form of automation would allow him to push through the exploration in question, giving him the sense of moving into uncharted seas and uncovering coastlines without being as slow as auto-survey or as annoying as having to manually path each exploration path. I suspect that what he wants is something kind of like EU4's exploration missions for fleets - it's about uncovering the shape of the coastlines rather than the intensive studies on the value of individual provinces.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:31
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OwlFancier posted:The only reason even in the current game you would want to do that is to make contact with empires, which is largely academic because you can't do anything useful with empires that are far away Like seriously broken, lmao. Like even from a purely mechanical perspective theres also discovering leviathans and critters, discovering ancient rings and ruins, and discovering special outposts, and no finding distant potential future allies or targets isnt useless. Especially since for a lot of those you either discover them early or you will never see them or be able to interact with them at all, leaving the rest of the game barren of some of the more enjoyable bits. And theres huge swathes of this game that are about more than the simple mechanical benefits of certain actions. If you want that, you could just play chess, not stellaris, and get a game that isnt, you know, complete poo poo to approach from a purely mechanically competitive angle. Its about the feeling and shape of things and the whole science fictiony bits, and going on voyages of some sort is a big part of that for some of us, and making contact with aliens is enjoyable in its own right GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 16:32
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GlyphGryph seems to consider "exploration" and "surveying" to be fundamentally different things, with exploration being the quick act of sending corvettes zooming through the cosmos to find planets and other empires. I think that's where the disconnect between him and the rest of the thread is.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:35
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Tomn posted:If I understand GlyphGryph correctly, he enjoys the concept and theme of exploration, as defined as "racing across the galaxy, uncovering the map, and making contact with strange new people." Like, not as a practical, mechanical "good game design" thing, as a "this pushes my emotional buttons in the right way" thing. With that in mind, both corvette-exploration and science ship exploration SORTA work in that regard, but requires a bunch of tedious clicking. Some form of automation would allow him to push through the exploration in question, giving him the sense of moving into uncharted seas and uncovering coastlines without being as slow as auto-survey or as annoying as having to manually path each exploration path. I mean I think that seems pretty at odds with the rest of the game design wise, the consistent theme, becoming more consistent with this update, is mobility as a limiting factor, your ability to mobilize is what determines much of your success, so having the exploration element operate on a completely different scale, wholly disconnected from the rest of the game doesn't really make any sense? And obviously you can't increase the scale of the rest of the game to match the previous exploration pace because you'd end up with no coherent sense of structure for empires because everyone can rapidly mobilize over half the galaxy, which is precisely the kind of thing the patch is looking to address because it breaks warfare.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:36
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If you have to call it something else - voyaging, discovery, scouting, recon, whatever, go ahead. And yeah obviously I would prefer they have a better implementation of it thats like the whole point of this conversation, and much like the rest of this game I am completely unsurprised to hear "oh yeah another paradox game already did a better implementation of this" because I am pretty sure that applies to most parts of this game.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:39
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@GlyphGryph you apparently have your own definition of exploration (going halfway across the galaxy) which noone else shared and was only a thing via Corvette Exploration because the conventional model of exploration that the game supplies is pushing out your frontiers via surveying and Epic Corvette Journeys was never an intended mechanic - another casualty of the initial design of the game, which i guess never really had someone asking questions like 'what if i just put a rebelling planet in a sector' or 'what if i just use..NOT science ships to explore' i.e. quote:Has something major changed in the way science ships worked that make them a decent exploration tool now, or somehow suited for voyages of exploration? was interpreted to mean something other than what you apparently meant in any case, if you want to go on epic-ish journeys you still can you just need first level sensor tech TheDeadlyShoe fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 16:42
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Oh hey did anything ever come out of that talk about choosing wincons back in the day? There was a lot of stuff that looked promising it would be great if any of it was ever realized or was going to be realized in 2.0. Or is it still just the same "play until you get bored because theres the actual win condition is slamming your head against a wall over and over doing the same most tedious part of the game on repeat over and over with a ten year cooldown for hours of literal real life time to get a popup saying You Did It"?
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Feb 20, 2018 16:43
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The actual win condition of any 4x or grand strategy game is play until you get bored. None of them have ever actually been appealing to actually 'win' and its always taken a lot of makework to fulfill conditions long after the game has been 'won'....with the rare exceptions of games that have easy win conditions that result in the game getting cut off right when its getting good, ahem, i'm looking at you Distant Worlds Pirates Win Conditions.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:46
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1stGear posted:GlyphGryph seems to consider "exploration" and "surveying" to be fundamentally different things, with exploration being the quick act of sending corvettes zooming through the cosmos to find planets and other empires. I think that's where the disconnect between him and the rest of the thread is. I don't think he understands that he can do the zooming through the cosmos with science vessels the same way he did with corvettes. Like yes, science vessels can also survey - but they can do the same job corvettes used to too. You don't have to survey with your science vessels. You can just fling them around and briefly visit each system and move on (and that has tangible benefits - knowing the galactic terrain is useful).
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Feb 20, 2018 16:47
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Though as they aren't free and are otherwise quite useful, unlike your starting corvettes, I wouldn't suggest doing it if you want to achieve anything productive with them.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:48
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I am unsure that will work with science vessels until they get +1 sensors. It might though. it depends how its implemented.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:49
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It should, given that otherwise they presumably wouldn't be able to explore anywhere until they get extra sensor range.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:50
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DatonKallandor posted:I also don't understand how throwing corvettes at poo poo is somehow good exploration, yet doing the exact same thing with science vessels is somehow not. And you can still do corvette exploration you just need +1 sensor range. OwlFancier posted:What do you even mean by "exploratory missions" because no, I don't understand what's interesting about throwing free corvettes into crystals randomly while almost immediately having everything mapped out, you're doing neither any exploration nor does it matter what happens to them. e: recon is a better word, yes.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:51
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I do kind of wish there was an event or something when you jump into the Realm of The Face-Melting Bacteria Ships where you might have a bit of a chance of escaping rather than it just being "zap" and you've lost a science ship and a scientist.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:53
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Well also the implication is that you won't actually choose to do it to that degree because that would be extremely wasteful. Your choice is between using one science ship and using several but I wouldn't suggest that not surveying systems as you go is a good idea except if you've got some very specific places you want to grab going by the hyperlane map. Otherwise you should be surveying steadily because that's how you play the game well. So going from the lovely corvette implementation to surveying a few systems at a time with science ships is a good effort management change, especially as the slower pace means you're going to pick up automated surveying at a much better point in the game when you might want to consider starting to automate it.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:55
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DatonKallandor posted:I don't think he understands that he can do the zooming through the cosmos with science vessels the same way he did with corvettes. He does understand that, he just finds it as tedious with science ships as with corvettes and was hoping for more of an improvement to it than Cherryh turned out to have offered, like perhaps an auto-explore button that is basically auto-survey except skipping the tedious surveying part in order to cover more space faster (or maybe some more involved mechanic but I can't imagine what that would even be). I get why his terminology is confusing a lot of people ITT but neither his nor your brains are unusually broken (this is SA, we're all a little bit broken in our own special ways).
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Feb 20, 2018 16:55
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GlyphGryph posted:If you have to call it something else - voyaging, discovery, scouting, recon, whatever, go ahead. Well, the way EU4 did it was that it divided up the map's provinces into "sea regions" that you could automatically send fleets out to explore if they had an explorer, at which point they auto-roamed the area and couldn't be withdrawn until it was either charted or the fleet was lost to attrition because your naval tech sucked - there's no difference between "surveying" and "exploration" there, unless you count "charting the coastlines" as being distinct from "explore sea region" (it all worked the same way). It relied on a bunch of basic assumptions about the mechanics of the game that aren't necessarily true in Stellaris. That being said, adding in some kind of autoexplore feature as you'd like probably wouldn't be THAT difficult, it's just that the devs probably never saw a need for it before now because, well, as you can tell from this thread a lot of people are having trouble understanding your basic desires, let alone be peeved enough to demand a change.
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Feb 20, 2018 16:55
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So that Star Trek mod is legitimately impressive. It's basically a full featured game. Multiple games, in fact. Every major empire (And even then even most of the little ones.) have unique mechanics, gameplay styles, entire storylines and random events, their own unique technology tree, their own often unique unity decisions, and even ship styles. That means that the Borg (Which have a gameplay style different from anything in base Stellaris actually can assimilate species (with unique mechanics! Their unity tree is crazy too as a side note.) and get benefits for it. And there's like 40-60 empires. loving sixty! Even the Hirogen and their dinky rear end starbase planet are in the game! Ditto for the Voth and their city ship, that annoying chef's race from Voyager (Before it got assimilated, though you can fix that.) and even that goo monster's race that killed Tasha Yar. Hell, many of them have their own unique mechanics and styles too. TL;DR: They have everything from every episode, including the ability to play through the plot of every episode (and even take them off track) by making them anomaly results that pop up with a decision chain and give unique results. This is on top of ship types/styles evolving as time goes on. So if you're playing in the pre-Enterprise era and switch to the Enterprise series time period you'll get the dinky polarized hull plating type ships. And when the original series comes around then you can upgrade your ships to use their models. All with appropriate tech upgrades and associated bonuses if you can afford to renovate and not mothball them. It's basically the Star Trek Armada 3 we never got, crossed with a grand strategy game. poo poo, even the crises are all interesting. The Mirror Universe can invade. Or the Borg can decide to try to assimilate Fluidic Space (It gives them bonuses. So they usually decide to at least try it.), thereby causing them to invade from an alternate map and want to purge reality. Or...Well, you get the idea. Basically, if it's a crisis in the series it's in in some hidden form you can accidentally trigger in game. Then you go to the galaxy selector in the match setup and realize that not only is the default Star Trek galaxy in but they've also added in reduced size variants and a fully scripted and equally feature heavy Mirror Universe version. Where every faction has their mirror universe equivalent not only in with it's appropriate traits (A hidden script system changes them at the start of the game but also has their own unique events, technologies, unity choices, and so on. Fun fact too: Not only does the Terran Empire get a mini-crisis like 5 years in usually but it has a massively complex chain of events associated with it that can lead to the empire changing hands to become alien dominant, to change emperor's, or even cause a second split on top of the first one. Also, the entire Enterprise mirror universe episode is in, which means you can get the Defiant/an original series ship like in that episode. Also, instead of negotiating with the Pakeld's like the Federation does in a normal universe you can just go "gently caress this. Blow these selfish idiots up.". Which was hysterical. TL;DR: If you're not hyped for Apocalypse then freeze your files so they don't update and play it. It's literally an entire set of new games crammed into one. Archonex fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 17:04
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TheDeadlyShoe posted:The actual win condition of any 4x or grand strategy game is play until you get bored. None of them have ever actually been appealing to actually 'win' and its always taken a lot of makework to fulfill conditions long after the game has been 'won'....with the rare exceptions of games that have easy win conditions that result in the game getting cut off right when its getting good, ahem, i'm looking at you Distant Worlds Pirates Win Conditions. There was a genuinely good wincon system being thrown around in this thread a while back and wiz was part of the discussion, where you have multiple wincons that are more like "civilization goals/milestones" that you could accomplish and count as a "win" and comfortably stop playing with a sense of finality, even though it didnt make anyone else lose. A concept that certain people in this this thread also had problems grasping (a win condition that is separate from a lose condition for other players? How does this make any sense in this game full of lose conditions that are not win conditions for other players!) but still resulted in a lot of really good and concrete ideas for possible wincons and ways to shape it to avoid the tedious bits and make them uniquely satisfying by allowing you to get a sort of epilogue if you stopped playing at that point. I am assuming based on your response that absolutely nothing came of that. Edit: I really should play the star trek mod at some point though, might be worth me doing that instead of upgrading to apoc since i assume its not gonna work in 2.0 GlyphGryph fucked around with this message at 17:08 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 17:04
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GlyphGryph posted:There was a genuinely good wincon system being thrown around in this thread a while back and wiz was part of the discussion, where you have multiple wincons that are more like "civilization goals/milestones" that you could accomplish and count as a "win" and comfortably stop playing with a sense of finality, even though it didnt make anyone else lose. Splicer fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Feb 20, 2018 |
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Feb 20, 2018 17:16
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Pretty weird to think that none of the space faring civilizations in Stellaris invented telescopes.
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