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They should just do what Singapore and to a lesser extent Sweden do. Build a bunch of government housing and price fix the rent in said housing.
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Feb 22, 2018 18:08
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DrNutt posted:Unless you are willing to completely nationalize housing how the gently caress do you make rents affordable? twodot posted:Hey, if we're talking nationalize the housing industry, I'm on board, but property owners decided to engage in capitalism, and now their assets need to be redistributed either way. My first priority is people who don't have houses, people whose houses are worth too much are pretty low on list.
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Feb 22, 2018 18:08
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Yeah and sure, until then you are going to pursue policies which will do active harm to lower income home owners, like adding an income tax on top of already difficult to pay property taxes and regressive as gently caress sales taxes.
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Feb 22, 2018 18:10
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DrNutt posted:Yeah and sure, until then you are going to pursue policies which will do active harm to lower income home owners, like adding an income tax on top of already difficult to pay property taxes and regressive as gently caress sales taxes. edit: Like, "Home owners are strictly better off than not home owners, also it is very important we care about the taxes paid by home owners" what?
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Feb 22, 2018 18:13
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twodot posted:You own a house because owning a house was cheaper than renting, why are you complaining about property taxes, if you've already calculated that owning was a better choice? Because poor people shouldn't get priced out of their loving homes??? Why are rising property taxes any better than a slumlord raising rents every year? We need progressive income taxes so that people will actually be paying their fair share, property taxes on business and rentiers is fine, property taxes on single home homeowners are pretty much the same as rising rent costs.
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Feb 22, 2018 18:18
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DrNutt posted:Because poor people shouldn't get priced out of their loving homes??? Why are rising property taxes any better than a slumlord raising rents every year? edit: Capitalism is the very thing that even enables land ownership, it's extremely annoying that land owners can argue, "but now markets are bad" after benefiting from that very market.
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Feb 22, 2018 18:23
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twodot posted:Slumlords are bad because they own slums. Rents are supposed to go up, that is called capitalism. Like I said, if we want to nationalize the housing industry, great, but in that case people are also going to get relocated. Socialism for land owners, and capitalism for renters is untenable. Bolded is the loving problem. I don't even think we're in disagreement in general but gently caress you for wanting me to be priced out of a place to live and be forced to relocate even further away from my job, friends, etc. Because apparently that is what you support.
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Feb 22, 2018 18:31
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Cicero posted:Property taxes seem more flat than regressive to me, and at least in theory you could make them progressive. Also relying too much on income taxes means that your tax receipts get very 'swingy' (see: California).
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Feb 22, 2018 18:31
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Thanatosian posted:Sales taxes are waaaaaayyyyyy swingier than income taxes (see: California). Also sales taxes pretty much ensure that the poor pay a greater percentage of their income than the wealthy.
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Feb 22, 2018 18:32
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DrNutt posted:Bolded is the loving problem. I don't even think we're in disagreement in general but gently caress you for wanting me to be priced out of a place to live and be forced to relocate even further away from my job, friends, etc. Because apparently that is what you support.
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Feb 22, 2018 18:35
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twodot posted:I mean if we're playing this game, gently caress you for wanting me to be priced out of a place to live and be forced to relocate even further away from my job, friends, etc. Because apparently that is what you support, because I'm not a land owner, and you want to grant land owners special benefits that will drive rents up. If you agree capitalism is the problem, privileging capitalists makes no sense. If we're going to have a property market, everyone needs to be affected. Institute a progressive income tax that considers all sources of income such as investments, capital gains, rent, etc and you won't need to have lovely regressive taxes in place. But yeah, while we're at it let's just do away with capitalism entirely and give everyone a unicorn. I don't know what the answer is but there's a pretty big problem in that most of our current taxes are regressive and continue to ensure that the poor pay way more than the wealthy. Adding an income tax while that is still the case is unacceptable to me.
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Feb 22, 2018 18:42
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punk rebel ecks posted:They should just do what Singapore and to a lesser extent Sweden do. Build a bunch of government housing and price fix the rent in said housing. Thanatosian posted:Sales taxes are waaaaaayyyyyy swingier than income taxes (see: California). They look about equally swingy to me here, with maybe income being slightly swingier? Hard to tell though because income also has a larger magnitude. Cicero fucked around with this message at 18:48 on Feb 22, 2018 |
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Feb 22, 2018 18:46
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Cicero posted:Have fun getting a flat in Stockholm lmao. I really don't think you want to use Sweden as an example here. Vienna seems solid though. I said to a lesser extent since government housing has been gutted since the 80s. What does Vienna do?
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Feb 22, 2018 18:48
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Ah yes, the choice of participating in capitalism. lolz. Anyway, what would a progressive property tax system look like? Just similar to progressive income tax with multiple rate tiers? How would levys work or would they need to be eliminated in such a system? Seattle does have tools available to help people with their property taxes. Whatever program im involved with has effectively capped my assessed value which seems like an easy way to ease lower income peoples burden if it can be applied elsewhere. punk rebel ecks posted:I said to a lesser extent since government housing has been gutted since the 80s. A fuckton of public housing
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Feb 22, 2018 18:49
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punk rebel ecks posted:What does Vienna do? http://cityobservatory.org/housing-policy-lessons-from-vienna-part-i/ http://cityobservatory.org/housing-policy-lessons-from-vienna-part-ii/
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Feb 22, 2018 18:50
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Also I thought Singapore's public housing was mostly flats that people bought, not rented. Is that wrong?
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Feb 22, 2018 19:00
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punk rebel ecks posted:They should just do what Singapore and to a lesser extent Sweden do. Build a bunch of government housing and price fix the rent in said housing. Lots of countries do this, in Germany they have several "low-income/student" housing that are built with public funds and the rents are pretty fixed. DrNutt posted:Because poor people shouldn't get priced out of their loving homes??? Why are rising property taxes any better than a slumlord raising rents every year? Even with the steep increases in property taxes it doesn't equal the rate that slumlords raise rents, a 1 million dollar home is taxed at about 1%... so less than 1000 a month for a 1 MILLION DOLLAR HOME. Anyone complaining about property taxes is a loving idiot.
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Feb 22, 2018 19:08
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I would like us to have a non-owner-occupied property tax in Seattle, at least. That would distinguish between the people who bought five condos bitching about their views, and the third-generation minority-owned homes in the Central District. And I think the impact on rent would be negligible, as I don't think there's much relationship between the cost to own a place and the rent you get for it in the city these days.
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Feb 22, 2018 19:12
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Cicero posted:I gotta run in a minute, but I think this is a decent primer: Wow this was a great read. Thanks.
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Feb 22, 2018 19:13
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ElCondemn posted:Even with the steep increases in property taxes it doesn't equal the rate that slumlords raise rents, a 1 million dollar home is taxed at about 1%... so less than 1000 a month for a 1 MILLION DOLLAR HOME. Anyone complaining about property taxes is a loving idiot. Hmm to some people, say, people that don't live in million dollar homes and have to budget every month, having your housing price go up no matter by how much can be loving difficult! Especially when COL and merit raises are a thing of the loving past, and you have to pay PMI because hey let's gently caress poor people some more! It's almost like how much of a burden something is depends on how much that person has to begin with. 
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Feb 22, 2018 19:23
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WA state GOP lawmakers: literally rejecting reality and substituting their own: https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/as-debate-heats-up-in-olympia-over-guns-a-gop-state-lawmaker-invents-a-massacre/ quote:Washington House Minority Leader Rep. Dan Kristiansen this week told a story about a Norwegian knife-murderer that sounded like it was ripped straight from a Scandinavian crime thriller. I'm normally very critical of the Seattle Times for their reporting, but I'm quite glad they called the guy on their bullshit straight up in the title.
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Feb 22, 2018 19:28
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seiferguy posted:WA state GOP lawmakers: literally rejecting reality and substituting their own:
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Feb 22, 2018 19:32
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anthonypants posted:is that piece of poo poo literally talking about anders breivik That's the only thing I can think of that he could possibly be talking about. At least, it's the only thing remotely like what he's describing that has been reported out of Norway in the last several years, so unless Norway is keeping this youth camp island knife attack a secret...
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Feb 22, 2018 19:36
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Thanatosian posted:And I think the impact on rent would be negligible, as I don't think there's much relationship between the cost to own a place and the rent you get for it in the city these days. There is if you're a speculator!
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Feb 22, 2018 19:41
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Thanatosian posted:I would like us to have a non-owner-occupied property tax in Seattle, at least. That would distinguish between the people who bought five condos bitching about their views, and the third-generation minority-owned homes in the Central District. And I think the impact on rent would be negligible, as I don't think there's much relationship between the cost to own a place and the rent you get for it in the city these days. Situation: Demand for property is very high driving property prices up Problem you are observing: Certain land owners are being priced out of being land owners due to increasing property taxes due to increasing prices Solution you are suggesting: Exempt certain land owners from property taxes, further restricting the available supply of property (edit: While at the same time increasing the cost of renting by allowing landlords to pass on the cost of raised property taxes, what the gently caress) The problem with affordable housing is that demand is outstripping supply, any measure to restrict supply even further is a step backwards. DrNutt posted:Institute a progressive income tax that considers all sources of income such as investments, capital gains, rent, etc and you won't need to have lovely regressive taxes in place. twodot fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Feb 22, 2018 |
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Feb 22, 2018 19:45
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twodot posted:Property tax is not lovely. It is the proper cost of a person demanding exclusive access to a unique, irreplaceable asset that should be governed socially. The idea that any human should be granted a cost-free, in perpetuity ownership of land is absurd on its face. You failing to see how lovely it is in practice despite not being lovely in concept is your own failing, you dimwit.
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Feb 22, 2018 19:49
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DrNutt posted:You failing to see how lovely it is in practice despite not being lovely in concept is your own failing, you dimwit.
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Feb 22, 2018 19:53
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twodot posted:You insisting that renters prop up your personal failed financial decisions, when they are, in your own estimation, worse off than you, is your failing.  Yes it is the fault of the single family home owner that lives in their home that rent is bad.
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Feb 22, 2018 20:01
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DrNutt posted:
DrNutt posted:property taxes on business and rentiers is fine, property taxes on single home homeowners are pretty much the same as rising rent costs. It is literally their fault. They are obstructing more dense buildings being built, they are demanding tax cuts unavailable to renters, they have achieved a position of privilege, and they are demanding to retain that position of privilege at the cost of people, who again, in your own estimation, are worse off.
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Feb 22, 2018 20:11
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Hey here's a thought, maybe low income homeowners at risk of losing their housing and those who own no property at all due to financial incapacity have common interests, which are counterposed to a class of people who actually dictate the terms of the markets and then extract profits from it, like the real estate investment firms who speculate on property. Maybe it would make more sense to go after the latter class of people and somehow redistribute their wealth so everyone in the former class can have housing?
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Feb 22, 2018 20:13
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twodot posted:"Hey guys, I'm just saying we should shift the burden of property taxes from single family home owners to rentiers (who will just pass the cost down to renters), why would you blame single family home owners for increases in rent?" In a radical world where we could actually get people to pay taxes that are proportional to their wealth, I would hope we would have rent controls in place to prevent rentiers from doing that. Also could you believe that there are places where the housing demand is not the same as Seattle? And that no one is clamoring to have vast blocks of apartments built in place of houses? Also, this: Mr. Lobe posted:Hey here's a thought, maybe low income homeowners at risk of losing their housing and those who own no property at all due to financial incapacity have common interests, which are counterposed to a class of people who actually dictate the terms of the markets and then extract profits from it, like the real estate investment firms who speculate on property. You are crab bucket mentality personified.
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Feb 22, 2018 20:23
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DrNutt posted:In a radical world where we could actually get people to pay taxes that are proportional to their wealth, I would hope we would have rent controls in place to prevent rentiers from doing that. quote:property taxes on business and rentiers is fine quote:Also could you believe that there are places where the housing demand is not the same as Seattle? And that no one is clamoring to have vast blocks of apartments built in place of houses? quote:
edit: VVVVV They are accusing me of crab bucket mentality, even though I've repeatedly said I'm in favor or nationalizing housing, I'm just opposed to granting special privileges to home owners. twodot fucked around with this message at 20:35 on Feb 22, 2018 |
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Feb 22, 2018 20:32
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DrNutt posted:You are crab bucket mentality personified. I've never met Mr. Lobe but I think I can safely say you're wrong unless the crab bucket analogy you're thinking of is where capitalism is drowned in a crab bucket?????
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Feb 22, 2018 20:32
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twodot posted:How could you possibly think the impact on rent would be negligible? I'm not proposing getting rid of all property taxes in favor of a non-owner-occupied property tax; just also having a non-owner-occupied property tax. And while you might have an argument in a land where real estate speculation didn't exist, in a world where it does, something that makes it a bit less profitable may actually have a downward effect on property prices. Toss a vacancy tax in there as well, see if we can get that absurd 3% vacancy rate we have in this town to go down a bit, too.
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Feb 22, 2018 20:34
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:I've never met Mr. Lobe but I think I can safely say you're wrong unless the crab bucket analogy you're thinking of is where capitalism is drowned in a crab bucket????? I believe the gentle poster was using my point to underscore the crab bucket mentality of twodots
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Feb 22, 2018 20:36
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Thanatosian posted:I'm not proposing getting rid of all property taxes in favor of a non-owner-occupied property tax; just also having a non-owner-occupied property tax. And while you might have an argument in a land where real estate speculation didn't exist, in a world where it does, something that makes it a bit less profitable may actually have a downward effect on property prices. quote:Toss a vacancy tax in there as well, see if we can get that absurd 3% vacancy rate we have in this town to go down a bit, too.
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Feb 22, 2018 20:38
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twodot posted:Those places don't have skyrocketing prices, and therefore don't have skyrocketing property taxes, and therefore don't matter for this conversation? In places without high demand property taxes are just a cost of ownership no different from roof replacements or whatever. Property taxes don't have to "skyrocket" to cause problems for homeowners in this wacky world where wages haven't budged in 40 years to even keep pace with inflation. Anything that rises consistently is a hardship on people who don't have their earnings increased correspondingly.
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Feb 22, 2018 20:42
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DrNutt posted:Property taxes don't have to "skyrocket" to cause problems for homeowners in this wacky world where wages haven't budged in 40 years to even keep pace with inflation. Anything that rises consistently is a hardship on people who don't have their earnings increased correspondingly. edit: Like the federal minimum wage buys less today than it did last year, that's absolutely true and absolutely a problem, but you'll never fix it by caring about property taxes. twodot fucked around with this message at 20:49 on Feb 22, 2018 |
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Feb 22, 2018 20:45
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twodot posted:Wait so you're proposal is to keep taxes the same, but add an additional tax that landlords pay on top of the property tax they are already paying? How would this do anything but increase the cost of renting? Taxes are a cost of business that landlords calculate when setting rents.
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Feb 22, 2018 20:50
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twodot posted:But that's literally everything? You've already acknowledged that you know inflation exists. If the problem is that wages aren't matching inflation, we need to fix wages, not destroy the entire concept of prices going up sometimes. Yeah but people do support things that help them because they can't wave a magic wand and have full communism now or whatever. Like, I actively support higher minimum wages, single payer healthcare, and pretty much everything else that a modern society should guarantee it's citizens. I am also supportive of nationalized/socialized housing. But for the moment I have to live in the world we're stuck with, and since rising property taxes directly impact me then I am going to oppose them in favor of taxes which impact the wealthy more significantly, like a progressive income tax.
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Feb 22, 2018 20:54
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