Got a crazy forwarded political email from your family? Post them here.

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Professor Beetus: Apr 12, 2007; They can fight us
But they'll never Beetus

ToxicSlurpee posted:

Nobody can seem to totally agree on who a millennial is and is not. One of the defining features seems to be "grew up with the internet" but there are people in their upper 30's who did and many who did not. Originally it seemed to be "the internet generation" or Gen Y. "Came of age around the millennium" is another one but that makes it pretty narrow. People who graduated high school in like 1999-2001 are probably considered millennials generally but are approaching middle age in that that puts them pushing 40.

There isn't some clear, defining year where everything changed for that like there was with, say, 1968 when basically everything changed. There's 9/11 but that's more of a political turning point than a generational one considering that the internet was what made a major change in a world and was already chugging along by that point. So now you have this blurry line because people in their mid 30's who used the internet as a kid are different than people in the mid 30's who barely touched a computer ever.

Ey gently caress you mang I ain't pushing 40, I'm 34, and I've still got many good years of life left!

Assuming I continue to have healthcare that helps me manage my diabetes.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 16:27

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# ? May 18, 2024 18:23

Playstation 4: Apr 25, 2014; Unlockable Ben

I just stick with Greatest, Silent, Boomer, X, Millennial, and Homeland.

It's still all hokey tho.

E: gently caress, I just realized the youngest Homelanders would be turning 22 this year. Kids born and young now probably are not going to even identify with them anymore.

Playstation 4 fucked around with this message at 16:36 on Feb 23, 2018

# ? Feb 23, 2018 16:33

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

jivjov posted:

"Millennial" is just conservative-speak for "someone who thinks we can affect meaningful change instead of holding the status quo, and is probably younger than me."

This is also why it's growing increasingly vague as it turns out that this is everybody under the age of 45.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 16:52

gradenko_2000: Oct 5, 2010; HELL SERPENT; Lipstick Apathy

My new jam is "scenario briefings from hypothetical conflicts that the creator obviously spent way too much time on":

quote:

The date of the event was Sunday, January 22, 2017. The time was 1:03 PM on the East Coast of the United States. The new American President had been sworn into office forty-eight hours ago, and this day he was in the White House with VIP guests, donors, campaign staff, family and friends. This privileged group, like tens of millions of Americans that day, is glued to the big screen television. Today is the highly anticipated American Football Conference Championship; the semi-final before the Super Bowl. The much hyped game was between the Denver Broncos and the Baltimore Ravens, and kick-off at Mile High Stadium in Denver just happened to the cheers of these elite party goers. The smart money said Denver would walk away with an easy victory � and since the new President hailed from Colorado, no one at the White House was wearing a Raven�s jersey. No one, that is, except the Senate Minority Leader who was from the opposing political party. It was all great fun. Spirits were high, the beer was flowing and the White House Chief of Staff couldn�t have been happier with the electric atmosphere and upbeat photo ops that could only benefit his new boss. Little did anyone know that before half-time arrived, the country would forever be changed.

The war didn�t start with a Weapon of Mass Destruction. In fact, the attack wasn�t high tech at all; it was decidedly low tech � almost antique. Specifically, what the media would come to refer to as the �weapons package� was a Soviet WWII era M1937 82mm mortar with twelve rounds of ammunition. Later investigation would show that the weapon was a veteran of WWII, and it left the Soviet Union in the 1960�s and made its way to one of the many African conflicts. It sat collecting dust in an African armory for what appears to be decades. Accountability on the mortar was lost years ago. No one cared. It was over 75 years old. The weapon type and ammunition could be purchased on the international weapons market for about $1500 (U.S.). The entire weapons package could easily fit, if disassembled, into the trunk of a mid-size rental car.

The first round plunged into Mile High Stadium in the middle of the second quarter. The round sailed over tens of millions of dollars worth of metal detectors, radiation detectors, explosive detection machines, video cameras, facial recognition software, terrorist data bases, drug and explosive sniffing dogs, and hundreds of security personnel. On live national television it impacted about five meters from the Raven�s offensive huddle. The second round landed in the Bronco�s bench area before stunned broadcasters could stop the live television feed. The mortar attack lasted two minutes with a dozen rounds landing on the field, sidelines and seating areas.

What wasn�t captured on live television made its way to You Tube by evening. Over seventy-five thousand screaming spectators stampeded for the exits. Hundreds were injured and dozens killed in the panicked human exodus. Waiting outside at a secluded distance were a half-dozen terrorists with fifty year old Draganov SVD semi-automatic sniper rifles. Within an hour it was over. All ten terrorists, five men and five women, were killed in gun battles. Civilian fatalities topped 200 with another 1000 injured and hospitalized. The Super Bowl was cancelled.

The investigation proceeded rapidly; the clues and leads were numerous. All ten terrorists were black, and they were all dressed in formal business attire. They had entered the U.S. within the last two weeks on valid tourist visas wearing the same clothes they were killed in. They entered the U.S. as married couples at five different airports. The weapons package and sniper rifles were waiting for them; it was suspected they had come across the southern border a month previous. The people and the equipment all originated from the same country - the country formerly known as Nigeria.

Nigeria no longer existed as a nation-state. The unbelievably corrupt kleptocracy that had governed Nigeria fell like a house of cards in 2015. A reinforced and externally funded Boko Haram rolled over successive government strongholds and garrisons. Moving North to South, the tempo of operations accelerated during the year until Nigerian government forces were in a full route. Key government figures and military leaders fled the nation with their loot; soldiers threw down their weapons, and resistance to Boko Haram collapsed before the end of the calendar year.

Supported by both Al Qaeda and ISIS/ISIL, 2016 would be a year of displacement and unbelievable suffering for the people of Nigeria. The world looked on in horror as Nigerian Christians fled for their lives. Those unable to flee the country were forced to convert to Islam, or hacked to death, or crucified, or beheaded. The lucky ones were simply shot. The political entity of Nigeria was replaced by a new country: the Caliphate of West Africa, or CWA.

The year 2016 would also see another player enter the stage. China would operate the highly lucrative oil fields in the Niger River delta for the CWA. They would also buy, in hard currency, the entire output of these oil fields. This was an uneasy alliance at best. China needed the oil, but was highly distrustful of the CWA. The CWA hated the infidel Chinese, but needed their money, technical expertise, weapons and political cover. It was long suspected by Western Intelligence agencies that the source of external funding for Boko Haram had been the Chinese Yuan, and that this deal was long in the making.

Sunday, 22 January 2017 was not only a horrific day for the United States, but for other Western nations as well. In France, three privately owned corporate jets laden with explosives would attack Paris in what became known as France�s 9/11. The first jet hit the Louvre, and destroyed priceless works of art and treasures of the entire human family. The second jet, for reasons unknown, crashed into a nondescript residential area. The third jet hit the Eiffel Tower, and caused the iconic symbol of France to topple into a heap of tangled steel. The national psyche of France was not broken nor even substantially wounded by this attack; rather, it was deeply and fundamentally outraged. A new and ultra jingoistic France was not out for justice, it was out for revenge.

The British had two strokes of luck that saved them. First, the terrorists delayed attacking until the next morning in order to maximize casualties � thus allowing the now alerted U.K. to bring the full force of its security apparatus to bear. Second, a young member of the terrorist advance team was apprehended for unrelated charges, and he unwittingly compromised the terrorist plot in an attempt to negotiate his way out of prosecution. The ten terrorists in London would all be killed long before the aerosolized VX persistent nerve agent in their backpacks could be released into congested London underground stations. However, scandal is eventually expected to erupt in the U.K. The terrorist who compromised the plot also provided information that suggests the highly toxic and very illegal VX originated from the MoD facility at Porton Down.

That last full week of January 2017 was reserved for mourning, recovery, anger, investigation and diplomatic action. The ineptness and ineffectiveness of the United Nations was, yet again, laid bare for all to see. Islamic nations flooded the agenda with issues meant to distract; however, it was China that bottled things up on the Security Council. By Friday of that week, the most that could be mustered was a watered down and very week U.N. resolution stating that the terrorist acts were a regrettable event. The West was not the least bit amused by China�s stoic intransigence.

On that last weekend of the month, the U.S. Congress was ordered into emergency session. On Monday, 30 January 2017 the President of the United States, who had been in office just over a week, stood before a televised joint session of Congress. In an event that had not been repeated since 8 December 1941, the President asked for, and received, a formal Congressional Declaration of War against the CWA.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 17:18

letthereberock: Sep 4, 2004

Playstation 4 posted:

I just stick with Greatest, Silent, Boomer, X, Millennial, and Homeland.

It's still all hokey tho.

E: gently caress, I just realized the youngest Homelanders would be turning 22 this year. Kids born and young now probably are not going to even identify with them anymore.

Where does the Pepsi generation fit in there?

# ? Feb 23, 2018 17:36

Duke Igthorn: Oct 11, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

ToxicSlurpee posted:

Nobody can seem to totally agree on who a millennial is and is not. One of the defining features seems to be "grew up with the internet" but there are people in their upper 30's who did and many who did not. Originally it seemed to be "the internet generation" or Gen Y. "Came of age around the millennium" is another one but that makes it pretty narrow. People who graduated high school in like 1999-2001 are probably considered millennials generally but are approaching middle age in that that puts them pushing 40.

There isn't some clear, defining year where everything changed for that like there was with, say, 1968 when basically everything changed. There's 9/11 but that's more of a political turning point than a generational one considering that the internet was what made a major change in a world and was already chugging along by that point. So now you have this blurry line because people in their mid 30's who used the internet as a kid are different than people in the mid 30's who barely touched a computer ever.

We're the "Oregon Trail" generation. JUST enough into computers that we understand them without the next generation's intuitive knowledge. It's a very small, very powerless, window.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 17:54

Ashcans: Jan 2, 2006; Let's do the space-time warp again!

I think you mean the 'Number Munchers' generation. :colbert:

Maybe the QBASIC Gorillas generation, to include those whose parents/schools didn't spring for games.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 17:58

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

The Centipede and Mr. Do on copied 5.25" floppies generation.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 18:26

seiferguy: Jun 9, 2005; FLAWED
INTUITION; Toilet Rascal

My parent company created a "millennial council" for everyone and their subsidiaries to join if you were of "millenial" age.

They didn't allow anyone born before 1990 to apply.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 18:26

Meydey: Dec 31, 2005

Guavanaut posted:

The Centipede and Mr. Do on copied 5.25" floppies generation.

Hell even if you ever used a 5.25" floppy. Bonus if you ever used a cassette player to load games.
Pretty sure my copy of Raid over Bungling Bay for the c64 was cassette.

Meydey fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Feb 23, 2018

# ? Feb 23, 2018 18:31

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

seiferguy posted:

"millennial council"

That sounds far more like a subsidiary of the illuminati than it really is.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 18:34

TheKennedys: Sep 23, 2006; By my hand, I will take you from this godforsaken internet

Duke Igthorn posted:

We're the "Oregon Trail" generation. JUST enough into computers that we understand them without the next generation's intuitive knowledge. It's a very small, very powerless, window.

I actually unironically like this theory, it's usually 78-83 and it really is a very specific group of kids that technology aged with. I'm 1980 and we were basically born with the advent of PCs and a major upswing in consumer electronics that coincided with us being slightly older kids in the 80s that were capable of appreciating the leaps and bounds in technology. Gaming aged with us. Kids older than us didn't have computers shaping their early years, kids younger than us were more accustomed to it already than we were. We don't really fit with X or millenials.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 18:37

Dr. Arbitrary: Mar 15, 2006; Bleak Gremlin

Who remembers needing the turbo button to slow games down enough to be playable?

# ? Feb 23, 2018 18:44

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

As part of that generation I'm continually amazed that a) people older than me don't understand computers and b) people younger than me don't understand computers.

The media talks about "tech savvy" millennials but unless it's their profession no, they don't know poo poo.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 18:44

Keeshhound: Jan 14, 2010; Mad Duck Swagger

Technology is a magic box, but for once it is the young who are the keepers of the secret rituals, rather than the elders.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 18:47

OwlFancier: Aug 22, 2013

Halloween Jack posted:

As part of that generation I'm continually amazed that a) people older than me don't understand computers and b) people younger than me don't understand computers.

The media talks about "tech savvy" millennials but unless it's their profession no, they don't know poo poo.

Yeah the thing about new technology is that it's proliferated based on being easy to use, not on the next generation being absurdly smart.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 18:50

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

Yeah, my experience working with undergrad students is that they don't immediately wrinkle their nose and go "This is too mysterious!" and refuse to even play around with stuff before asking you to do it for them, as older people are wont to do. But by the same token, they just use it without ever thinking about, for example, security, and they don't know what to do when their laptop doesn't automagically connect to the printer.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 19:00

Duke Igthorn: Oct 11, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

OwlFancier posted:

Yeah the thing about new technology is that it's proliferated based on being easy to use, not on the next generation being absurdly smart.

Oh gently caress yeah. I remember my mom coming home from going yard saling and bringing back computers and floppy disks labeled "Zork" and me trying to hook up 20 year old technology to a new (but not yet "flat new") TV.

TheKennedys posted:

I actually unironically like this theory, it's usually 78-83 and it really is a very specific group of kids that technology aged with. I'm 1980 and we were basically born with the advent of PCs and a major upswing in consumer electronics that coincided with us being slightly older kids in the 80s that were capable of appreciating the leaps and bounds in technology. Gaming aged with us. Kids older than us didn't have computers shaping their early years, kids younger than us were more accustomed to it already than we were. We don't really fit with X or millenials.

1981. It's an unironic theorem. Technology grew up with us.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 19:03

Dr. Arbitrary: Mar 15, 2006; Bleak Gremlin

I saw one of those millennial bashing videos the other day, the millennial goes in for a job interview is texting the whole time, the interview asks if she has computer skills, she says yes. The interviewer asks if she knows excel and she says she's more into Facebook and Snapchat.

You know where it's going.

I was thinking how neat it would be to write a sequel, showing how the millennial remembers it.

Do you know anything about excel?
No... I work with Hadoop, it's a used by big companies like Google and Facebook.

Edit:

My point is, next time you see one of those videos, imagine it as coming from an unreliable narrarator.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 19:11

BaronVonVaderham: Jul 31, 2011; All hail the queen!

Duke Igthorn posted:

We're the "Oregon Trail" generation. JUST enough into computers that we understand them without the next generation's intuitive knowledge. It's a very small, very powerless, window.

The article that spawned that: https://socialmediaweek.org/blog/2015/04/oregon-trail-generation/

It perfectly captures this sentiment....

Halloween Jack posted:

As part of that generation I'm continually amazed that a) people older than me don't understand computers and b) people younger than me don't understand computers.

It's definitely a problem I encountered frequently while working in IT (thank loving christ I don't have to interact with people anymore, I would have killed myself, someone else, or both). The younger users do pick up new programs and interfaces really quickly....but they cannot troubleshoot even the simplest of errors. They quickly dissolve into smashing the same button repeatedly, baffled about why it doesn't just do the thing it used to do when they hit that button. I don't know if that's better than being afraid to try in the first place.

They have no concept of how any of the technology they're using works. One of my favorite quotes ever, from James Burke's "Connections" series from the 70s (fantastic and still holds up today, go watch it)...."Never have so many people understood so little about so much."

Questions like "did you check to see if the driver is up to date" fly right over their heads, their experience is just "I plug in the thing and then the thing works". But it's not just technology, I ran into it endlessly as a math teacher; they want a formulaic approach, a recipe to follow to solve every problem. I was teaching Algebra II, where you really need to start understanding the concepts since every problem is different. They try to copy exactly what I did in examples, but then when their first attempt inevitably fails, throw up their hands and immediately ask for help and cry that it's too hard.

It's not so much a lack of ability, it's that there's no longer any patience to continue the first time even the smallest thing goes wrong. It's just a different manifestation of the same reason old people refuse to even try: fear of failure. It's not a generational problem, it's an endemic cultural problem, it just shows in different ways in different groups.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 20:35

Invalid Validation: Jan 13, 2008

It happens with every generation. In general people lack any common sense. It�s just that any other time in history they wouldn�t have the chance to live as long.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 20:39

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

BaronVonVaderham posted:

But it's not just technology, I ran into it endlessly as a math teacher; they want a formulaic approach, a recipe to follow to solve every problem. I was teaching Algebra II, where you really need to start understanding the concepts since every problem is different. They try to copy exactly what I did in examples, but then when their first attempt inevitably fails, throw up their hands and immediately ask for help and cry that it's too hard.

I do think that young people, particularly in more affluent families who endlessly angst over their children's ability to compete in the global marketplace of the future, are being pushed well past the point where actually absorbing the material and learning to think critically is an obstacle to getting a 6.0 GPA.

"Memorization, not rationalization."

# ? Feb 23, 2018 20:53

Galaxy Brain: Dec 13, 2017; by Lowtax

BaronVonVaderham posted:

Questions like "did you check to see if the driver is up to date" fly right over their heads, their experience is just "I plug in the thing and then the thing works". But it's not just technology, I ran into it endlessly as a math teacher; they want a formulaic approach, a recipe to follow to solve every problem. I was teaching Algebra II, where you really need to start understanding the concepts since every problem is different. They try to copy exactly what I did in examples, but then when their first attempt inevitably fails, throw up their hands and immediately ask for help and cry that it's too hard.

It's not so much a lack of ability, it's that there's no longer any patience to continue the first time even the smallest thing goes wrong. It's just a different manifestation of the same reason old people refuse to even try: fear of failure. It's not a generational problem, it's an endemic cultural problem, it just shows in different ways in different groups.

They're like that because adults catastrophize every scraped knee or childhood argument. If you were born in the 90s you're on high alert because anything you do even slightly imperfectly is immediately dissected for evidence that you have a syndrome you'll need to be drugged and therapized out of, and all you hear 24/7 from all directions is that success is both mandatory and impossible - college will cost a million dollars, the only jobs that don't make you a shameful pile of human garbage are ones that make you a billionaire before 30, and every time you were even a half a beat slow figuring something out, maybe just because you were exploring at your own pace, some adult screeched and snatched the thing out of your hands and told you to straighten your spine and start following orders so you won't starve to death in a gutter.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 21:00

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

BaronVonVaderham posted:

Questions like "did you check to see if the driver is up to date" fly right over their heads, their experience is just "I plug in the thing and then the thing works". But it's not just technology, I ran into it endlessly as a math teacher; they want a formulaic approach, a recipe to follow to solve every problem. I was teaching Algebra II, where you really need to start understanding the concepts since every problem is different. They try to copy exactly what I did in examples, but then when their first attempt inevitably fails, throw up their hands and immediately ask for help and cry that it's too hard.

It's not so much a lack of ability, it's that there's no longer any patience to continue the first time even the smallest thing goes wrong. It's just a different manifestation of the same reason old people refuse to even try: fear of failure. It's not a generational problem, it's an endemic cultural problem, it just shows in different ways in different groups.

Pedagogy rant time!

This shows up a lot for me teaching chemistry to college freshmen, and I'm pretty sure it has to do with the way they're taught. What you're describing is a group of students who are still low on Bloom's Taxonomy for that subject, focusing on memorization and small adaptations instead of on more complex cognitive tasks. The thing is, the curriculum should be designed to push them farther up the taxonomy toward more complex thought, which takes a lot of work. Also doing that kind of work is discouraged by the standardized testing regime, which isn't really capable of detecting much beyond the lower tiers and devalues anything that doesn't improve scores.

It also happens to be a method that encourages the conception of intelligence as a fundamentally passive ability to memorize whatever trivia is handed down by authority figures rather than as an active drive toward curiosity and investigation, which means it conflates obedience with intelligence (and independence and willingness to question with stupidity), and then you get engineers. But that's jumping from standard educational theory to Brazilian communist educational theory so don't expect to see much of this paragraph if you decide to look this poo poo up.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 21:39

Scruff McGruff: Feb 13, 2007; Jesus, kid, you're almost a detective. All you need now is a gun, a gut, and three ex-wives.

BaronVonVaderham posted:

The article that spawned that: https://socialmediaweek.org/blog/2015/04/oregon-trail-generation/

It perfectly captures this sentiment....

It's definitely a problem I encountered frequently while working in IT (thank loving christ I don't have to interact with people anymore, I would have killed myself, someone else, or both). The younger users do pick up new programs and interfaces really quickly....but they cannot troubleshoot even the simplest of errors. They quickly dissolve into smashing the same button repeatedly, baffled about why it doesn't just do the thing it used to do when they hit that button. I don't know if that's better than being afraid to try in the first place.

One of the weird issues I've encountered is the sheer plethora of apps that do nearly identical functions means that when someone discovers they can't do X in app A it just means they should try app B instead rather than see if it's an option that just needs to be enabled in A.

On the flip side I also frequently find that more and more apps these days have the skimpiest of menus and just don't bother with options to enable more advanced functionalities, I might just be getting old but it seems like I used to have a much greater ability to turn on or off deep features of programs. I've worked with developers that simply won't even consider it, like when it's suggested that they give users the option for something they just hand-wave it away with a "they'll never use that" or "why would they wan't to" or "users wouldn't get that" or "it makes the menu to cluttered". It drives me nuts because then I really DO have to then look at switching from app A to app B because basic options become exclusive features.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 21:45

Galaxy Brain: Dec 13, 2017; by Lowtax

Goon Danton posted:

Pedagogy rant time!

This shows up a lot for me teaching chemistry to college freshmen, and I'm pretty sure it has to do with the way they're taught. What you're describing is a group of students who are still low on Bloom's Taxonomy for that subject, focusing on memorization and small adaptations instead of on more complex cognitive tasks. The thing is, the curriculum should be designed to push them farther up the taxonomy toward more complex thought, which takes a lot of work. Also doing that kind of work is discouraged by the standardized testing regime, which isn't really capable of detecting much beyond the lower tiers and devalues anything that doesn't improve scores.

It also happens to be a method that encourages the conception of intelligence as a fundamentally passive ability to memorize whatever trivia is handed down by authority figures rather than as an active drive toward curiosity and investigation, which means it conflates obedience with intelligence (and independence and willingness to question with stupidity), and then you get engineers. But that's jumping from standard educational theory to Brazilian communist educational theory so don't expect to see much of this paragraph if you decide to look this poo poo up.

Is there a thread where you can talk about this more in depth? Because I have a lot of feelings about Peak Homework and Teaching to the Test and all that other bullshit.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 21:59

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

I have no idea if there's an education thread, but you can get good info on Bloom's taxonomy from a web search. Also read Pedagogy of the Oppressed for the Brazilian commie stuff. It's good poo poo if you don't mind authors who talk about praxis a bunch.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 22:18

Galaxy Brain: Dec 13, 2017; by Lowtax

Goon Danton posted:

I have no idea if there's an education thread, but you can get good info on Bloom's taxonomy from a web search. Also read Pedagogy of the Oppressed for the Brazilian commie stuff. It's good poo poo if you don't mind authors who talk about praxis a bunch.

I don't want to so much "learn things myself" as "listen to people who already know those things voice strongly-worded opinions about them." You know, the internet experience.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 22:20

Dienes: Nov 4, 2009; dee
doot doot dee
doot doot doot
doot doot dee
dee doot doot
doot doot dee
dee doot doot; College Slice

BaronVonVaderham posted:

The article that spawned that: https://socialmediaweek.org/blog/2015/04/oregon-trail-generation/

It perfectly captures this sentiment....

It's definitely a problem I encountered frequently while working in IT (thank loving christ I don't have to interact with people anymore, I would have killed myself, someone else, or both). The younger users do pick up new programs and interfaces really quickly....but they cannot troubleshoot even the simplest of errors. They quickly dissolve into smashing the same button repeatedly, baffled about why it doesn't just do the thing it used to do when they hit that button. I don't know if that's better than being afraid to try in the first place.

They have no concept of how any of the technology they're using works. One of my favorite quotes ever, from James Burke's "Connections" series from the 70s (fantastic and still holds up today, go watch it)...."Never have so many people understood so little about so much."

Questions like "did you check to see if the driver is up to date" fly right over their heads, their experience is just "I plug in the thing and then the thing works". But it's not just technology, I ran into it endlessly as a math teacher; they want a formulaic approach, a recipe to follow to solve every problem. I was teaching Algebra II, where you really need to start understanding the concepts since every problem is different. They try to copy exactly what I did in examples, but then when their first attempt inevitably fails, throw up their hands and immediately ask for help and cry that it's too hard.

It's not so much a lack of ability, it's that there's no longer any patience to continue the first time even the smallest thing goes wrong. It's just a different manifestation of the same reason old people refuse to even try: fear of failure. It's not a generational problem, it's an endemic cultural problem, it just shows in different ways in different groups.

To be fair, "Do the same action more and harder if it doesn't work like it usually does" is textbook extinction burst behavior, and hardly unique to young folks. Same thing happens when the pop/soda/coke machine doesn't work - slam the button a few more times and proceed to have a fit.

At least with stuff like common core they are attempting to teach number theory and multiple approaches to problems. Older folks grew up with rote memorization to get through the day.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 22:22

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

Halloween Jack posted:

I do think that young people, particularly in more affluent families who endlessly angst over their children's ability to compete in the global marketplace of the future, are being pushed well past the point where actually absorbing the material and learning to think critically is an obstacle to getting a 6.0 GPA.

"Memorization, not rationalization."

This makes me cringe because I think back to high school and even then the amount of homework was sometimes bafflingly insane. We're talking "over a hundred math problems, due tomorrow" insane. A lot of it was just meaningless busy work.

Geometry in particular sticks out in my mind for pretty much the same things that article is talking about. We had to do lots and lots of proofs and by "do" I mean memorize. There was zero requirement to actually understand what you were writing; on test day you were required only to write the proof as it was presented in class exactly the way it was presented. There was no reasoning it out yourself allowed; just memorize it and puke it back on the paper. It was possible to get a good grade in the class with zero understanding of geometry if you memorized the right stuff. No need to know what any of it means; just repeat back what the teacher said! Which of course does you no good whatsoever in the real world if you end up needing to actually use it.

A lot of it isn't really about competition in the market; it's about pressuring children to go into high prestige, high pay jobs. It's like everybody decided that their child must go on to be a doctor, a lawyer, or an MBA or something while failing to realize we need people to do things other than that as well. So many parents decided that they should be the one at the water cooler saying "well my child is studying to be a doctor at Harvard on a full ride scholarship. Beat that, you inferior parent. :smug:

# ? Feb 23, 2018 22:35

Galaxy Brain: Dec 13, 2017; by Lowtax

I agree, I think there's a heavy bias towards sort of "conveyor belt" professions, where parents imagine they can just put the kid on the right track and they'll chug along to a six-figure job guaranteed. People are stretched so thin (or feel like they are whether it's true or not) that any risk at all is unacceptably high. This has the unintended side effect of kids clinging to fantasies about jobs with lottery style odds of success, since every adult in their lives used up all their shrieking about impossible dreams when somebody whispered the words "humanities degree" at them, so they can't really see the difference between planning to be a pop star and any other job their parents don't approve of.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 22:43

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

ToxicSlurpee posted:

This makes me cringe because I think back to high school and even then the amount of homework was sometimes bafflingly insane. We're talking "over a hundred math problems, due tomorrow" insane. A lot of it was just meaningless busy work.

Geometry in particular sticks out in my mind for pretty much the same things that article is talking about. We had to do lots and lots of proofs and by "do" I mean memorize. There was zero requirement to actually understand what you were writing; on test day you were required only to write the proof as it was presented in class exactly the way it was presented. There was no reasoning it out yourself allowed; just memorize it and puke it back on the paper. It was possible to get a good grade in the class with zero understanding of geometry if you memorized the right stuff. No need to know what any of it means; just repeat back what the teacher said! Which of course does you no good whatsoever in the real world if you end up needing to actually use it.

The book I was talking about calls this the "banking model" of education. The teacher deposits knowledge into the students, and then checks his balance in each of his little banks come test day, without any action or initiative on the students' parts. I prefer to think of it as the piggy bank model, dropping knowledge coins in your students' brains and then smashing them open to see what's inside. It reflects what happens to that knowledge after the test a little better, I think.

Galaxy Brain posted:

I agree, I think there's a heavy bias towards sort of "conveyor belt" professions, where parents imagine they can just put the kid on the right track and they'll chug along to a six-figure job guaranteed. People are stretched so thin (or feel like they are whether it's true or not) that any risk at all is unacceptably high. This has the unintended side effect of kids clinging to fantasies about jobs with lottery style odds of success, since every adult in their lives used up all their shrieking about impossible dreams when somebody whispered the words "humanities degree" at them, so they can't really see the difference between planning to be a pop star and any other job their parents don't approve of.

I teach a med-school-required course to college freshmen, at a university noted for its med and med-adjacent programs. My classes are typically 75% pre-med or pre-pharm at the start of the year, and around two months in my office hours turn into counseling sessions for kids who are burning out and realizing that it was always their parents who wanted them to be a doctor instead of them wanting it for themselves. It's ugly.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 22:50

Guavanaut: Nov 27, 2009; Looking At Them Tittys
1969 - 1998; Toilet Rascal

ToxicSlurpee posted:

Geometry

Anyone that hasn't already should read Lockhart's Lament on that topic and math education in general.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 22:52

Galaxy Brain: Dec 13, 2017; by Lowtax

Guavanaut posted:

Anyone that hasn't already should read Lockhart's Lament on that topic and math education in general.

I have been looking for this for years! Although I admit my math studies never got far enough for me to really understand what Lockhart means. What's the math that's music and not just scales?

# ? Feb 23, 2018 22:54

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

Galaxy Brain posted:

I agree, I think there's a heavy bias towards sort of "conveyor belt" professions, where parents imagine they can just put the kid on the right track and they'll chug along to a six-figure job guaranteed. People are stretched so thin (or feel like they are whether it's true or not) that any risk at all is unacceptably high. This has the unintended side effect of kids clinging to fantasies about jobs with lottery style odds of success, since every adult in their lives used up all their shrieking about impossible dreams when somebody whispered the words "humanities degree" at them, so they can't really see the difference between planning to be a pop star and any other job their parents don't approve of.

The worst thing in life is giving up on your dreams, however insane they are. The right thing to do is for parents to point out how bad the odds are and hey have a back up plan. That and there is absolutely no shame in doing a 9-5 in something you are luke warm on for a paycheck while you pursue your passion at night. Instead we're getting into "YOU MUST CHASE PRESTIGE AND WEALTH 100% OF YOUR TIME OR YOU ARE WRONG."

Goon Danton posted:

The book I was talking about calls this the "banking model" of education. The teacher deposits knowledge into the students, and then checks his balance in each of his little banks come test day, without any action or initiative on the students' parts. I prefer to think of it as the piggy bank model, dropping knowledge coins in your students' brains and then smashing them open to see what's inside. It reflects what happens to that knowledge after the test a little better, I think.

I teach a med-school-required course to college freshmen, at a university noted for its med and med-adjacent programs. My classes are typically 75% pre-med or pre-pharm at the start of the year, and around two months in my office hours turn into counseling sessions for kids who are burning out and realizing that it was always their parents who wanted them to be a doctor instead of them wanting it for themselves. It's ugly.

That's Paulo Freire, correct? We read some of him in college; I realize in retrospect it was to point out how wretched American education is and attempt to break people out of it. I was a non-traditional student and it made me kind of sad to see how passive the traditional students were about everything. So many of them very obviously had their ability to think for themselves either beaten out of them or never developed in the first place. It's a common problem in American education; too many people go to college to get a piece of paper that will entitle them to a certain job rather than going to learn. Some of them felt like horrible failures because they changed their majors or realized that they had zero interest in the stuff their parents were pushing. That or they were drifting around because they didn't have a single clue what they wanted to do and only went to college because their parents basically forced them. This idea that everybody should enroll in college immediately after high school and only pursue the fanciest jobs is absurd.

I got pressure to be a doctor growing up too. Even then I knew I had no desire whatsoever to do anything medical but boy howdy was that a wrong answer.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 22:59

Galaxy Brain: Dec 13, 2017; by Lowtax

ToxicSlurpee posted:

The worst thing in life is giving up on your dreams, however insane they are. The right thing to do is for parents to point out how bad the odds are and hey have a back up plan. That and there is absolutely no shame in doing a 9-5 in something you are luke warm on for a paycheck while you pursue your passion at night. Instead we're getting into "YOU MUST CHASE PRESTIGE AND WEALTH 100% OF YOUR TIME OR YOU ARE WRONG."

Yeah, I just mean that that conversation about bad odds no longer works because the kids already heard that same doom and gloom speech about everything that wasn't medicine or programming. And imagine how alien the idea that you could do what you love "in your free time" sounds to a generation of kids who have never had any.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 23:03

ToxicSlurpee: Nov 5, 2003; -=SEND HELP=-; Pillbug

Galaxy Brain posted:

Yeah, I just mean that that conversation about bad odds no longer works because the kids already heard that same doom and gloom speech about everything that wasn't medicine or programming. And imagine how alien the idea that you could do what you love "in your free time" sounds to a generation of kids who have never had any.

Yup. Especially now in the days of "9 to 5 is more like 7 to 10" because some MBA decided to make everybody salaried-exempt then work them to death.

It really is the road to hell being paved in good intentions; while some are narcissistic and want to brag others just want to see their children be on the path to success. So they become insane helicopter parents that don't see a problem with 8 hours of homework every day or unrealistic academic expectations. Apparently the AP classes high school kids are being increasingly pressured into are full of horrors. "College prep" often includes bug gently caress insane levels of what amounts to busy work.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 23:10

Goon Danton: May 24, 2012; Don't forget to show my shitposts to the people. They're well worth seeing.

ToxicSlurpee posted:

That's Paulo Freire, correct? We read some of him in college; I realize in retrospect it was to point out how wretched American education is and attempt to break people out of it. I was a non-traditional student and it made me kind of sad to see how passive the traditional students were about everything. So many of them very obviously had their ability to think for themselves either beaten out of them or never developed in the first place. It's a common problem in American education; too many people go to college to get a piece of paper that will entitle them to a certain job rather than going to learn.

Yeah, that stuff is Freire. I might have mixed in some stuff from Foucault when I was talking about conflating obedience for intelligence though. And that learned passivity is incredibly frustrating from the teaching side. You ask if there are any questions, and just pray that you'll get some response beyond blank fish-eyed stares or "will this be on the exam?"

ToxicSlurpee posted:

Yup. Especially now in the days of "9 to 5 is more like 7 to 10" because some MBA decided to make everybody salaried-exempt then work them to death.

It really is the road to hell being paved in good intentions; while some are narcissistic and want to brag others just want to see their children be on the path to success. So they become insane helicopter parents that don't see a problem with 8 hours of homework every day or unrealistic academic expectations. Apparently the AP classes high school kids are being increasingly pressured into are full of horrors. "College prep" often includes bug gently caress insane levels of what amounts to busy work.

AP classes are the worst of the worst of the "teach to the test" set, and my school has stopped accepting AP credit for general chemistry because they don't know poo poo about poo poo after taking that exam.

e2: Also the AP exams train students to write like idiots, because the only scoring factor in essays is "did you include the right key phrases" and not "did your essay make any coherent point" or "did you say the key phrases six different ways" or "did you include a bunch of wrong things too" or anything else

Goon Danton fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Feb 23, 2018

# ? Feb 23, 2018 23:17

Halloween Jack: Sep 12, 2003; I WILL CUT OFF BOTH OF MY ARMS BEFORE I VOTE FOR ANYONE THAT IS MORE POPULAR THAN BERNIE!!!!!

ToxicSlurpee posted:

A lot of it isn't really about competition in the market; it's about pressuring children to go into high prestige, high pay jobs. It's like everybody decided that their child must go on to be a doctor, a lawyer, or an MBA or something while failing to realize we need people to do things other than that as well. So many parents decided that they should be the one at the water cooler saying "well my child is studying to be a doctor at Harvard on a full ride scholarship. Beat that, you inferior parent. "

Well, let's get to the root of it: The problem is not that we don't recognize that we need people in non-professional jobs, we just resign ourselves to the fact that the American working class is being ground down further into slavery in all but name, year after year. But we're not allowed to talk about it.

# ? Feb 23, 2018 23:19

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# ? May 18, 2024 18:23

winterwerefox: Apr 23, 2010; The next movie better not make me shave anything

My parents hopewas, and is, for me to be a permanent helper on their dirt farm in the middle of rural nowhere where they grow nothing. My reading a book was a waste of time. But also, I was a failure for getting bad grades because I had no encouragement or hope. This talk of parents wantign their kids to be something feels so alien :smith:

# ? Feb 24, 2018 00:51

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