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We all know that, but that guy was saying he assumes they don't get read but includes it anyway. If we all go with the assumption that it doesn't get read, then how is it offering an advantage? I, for one, think that they do read cover letters more often than they don't.
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Feb 24, 2018 00:27
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Vincent Valentine posted:Keep in mind guys if shirec gets fired for reporting her boss there is zero chance she will win a retaliatory suit because he has been loudly and aggressively chastising her in public for basically everything. He can just point to all of those times and say he was unhappy with her performance. Is not that simple. Because, to me, cover letters (and thank you notes) reek of desperation. My resume and the subsequent interviews should tell a potential employer everything they need to know. It's not that hard to get a good paying job in the tech field.
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Feb 24, 2018 00:47
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So all that resume advice I got worked and now I'm swimming in tech interviews. The one I have in front of me right now is five questions, and it's due in one week. So, for all those in the know: 1. How long and in-depth should these questions be? I got a weird question about a mysterious bitwise operator function that I gave a page-long response to it. I could shorten it down a bit, but I think it gives some insight into how I solve coding problems. 2. Does it matter if I turn it in right away? I could get it done tonight, but I kinda wanna take my time and wait a few days.
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Feb 24, 2018 02:44
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Vincent Valentine posted:Why would you purposely hamstring yourself in a market as hard to find a great job in as tech? Because great jobs in tech are (for some people) a dime a dozen, hanging from every tree? NeekBerm posted:So all that resume advice I got worked and now I'm swimming in tech interviews. The one I have in front of me right now is five questions, and it's due in one week. So, for all those in the know: How long or short the interviewer wants the answer to be? That's only for him/her to decide. You do your best, make a judgment call on ho much or how little to say. My weird questions that I remember from a company form was: "Name the most obscure programming language your worked with (even if only as a hobby)". Jesus guys, really? "Go" I guess since the things I tried in scala and haskell cannot really count. Weird (and no, they didn't reply any further). Take your time, don't rush. If you have a deadline, there's no reason to be done too early before said deadline. It's also weekend now and I can tell you nobody will read anything. Sunday night is just as good of a time. Volguus fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Feb 24, 2018 |
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Feb 24, 2018 03:29
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Ither posted:Because, to me, cover letters (and thank you notes) reek of desperation. My resume and the subsequent interviews should tell a potential employer everything they need to know. A cover letter is a way to provide a personalized introduction to yourself and your services and sell the company on giving you a call for an interview. I don't think it's necessarily desperate to include one, but badly written ones do come across as desperate. I'm with you on thank-you notes, though. I've never been on an engineering hiring panel where a thank-you note turned 'no' into 'yes' (or was mentioned much at all), but I have heard thank-you notes used in favor of/against PM and sales applicants.
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Feb 24, 2018 04:06
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Ither posted:It's not that hard to get a good paying job in the tech field. Good for you I guess?
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Feb 24, 2018 07:13
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Vincent Valentine posted:Why would you purposely hamstring yourself in a market as hard to find a great job in as tech? what field is easy to find a great job in, by your standards? like, not that everything is sunshine and roses but talking about tech as if it's an unusually hard field seems absurd
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Feb 24, 2018 08:28
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:but talking about tech as if it's an unusually hard field seems absurd 
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Feb 24, 2018 10:48
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let's think about it in terms of relative difficulty. like say you want to be an electrician. you have to study for years, be an apprentice, do a whole lot of bullshit. doctor, lawyer, even a teacher - same thing. in IT: - Helldesk - know how to install windows, remove viruses - Network admin - know what active directory is - Software QA - know how to bullshit - Software developer - know how to set a breakpoint + know how to bullshit the field just has artificial barriers set around it because we don't want the world to know how easy this poo poo is
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Feb 24, 2018 13:31
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:- Software developer - know how to set a breakpoint + know how to bullshit What a joke. What is it about software developers that makes them full of self-doubt and self-loathing? Not all development jobs, of course, but what we do is difficult. It requires years of study, as well as continuous education of new languages/frameworks/concepts that have lifespans measured in single-digit years (if you're lucky.) Oh, and by the way, it also requires a high IQ, a strong grasp of logic, and the ability to achieve deep focus on abstract concepts for hours at a time. Try teaching programming to complete newbies (not people with strong tech chops already) sometime.
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Feb 24, 2018 14:42
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:like, not that everything is sunshine and roses but talking about tech as if it's an unusually hard field seems absurd If it were not, we would all get paid the same as supermarket baggers. It's not like the tech industry /politicians dont do their best to increase the labour supply via pushing STEM education and outsourcing, but it keeps not working. Why do you think that is?
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Feb 24, 2018 15:36
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B-Nasty posted:What a joke. I think you're both full of hyperbole. Years of study? So there's no 6 month bootcamps that have turned out graduates? I still do cover letters because I don't just throw pasta sauce at the wall and see what sticks when applying to jobs. I choose ones that I think would interest me and then I go all out to get them. If there's a chance that it will give even a .1% edge you'd be the definition of unprofessional not to take it. If your metric though is, "I want to trade my time for money to buy goods and services." then sure maybe you don't care about it.
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Feb 24, 2018 15:53
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TBH my understanding (and personal experience confirms it) is that the most interesting jobs you get via networking, not sending cover letters and CVs to job ads. And once you have the in via networking, cover letter seems really superfluous.
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Feb 24, 2018 15:55
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Bruegels Fuckbooks posted:let's think about it in terms of relative difficulty. My path was flunk out of university due to lovely work ethic, unpaid 3 month internship through my city council unemployment program, part time development, full time development.
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Feb 24, 2018 16:03
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Xarn posted:TBH my understanding (and personal experience confirms it) is that the most interesting jobs you get via networking, not sending cover letters and CVs to job ads. And once you have the in via networking, cover letter seems really superfluous. Fair enough. Add the caveat that this isn't a networking or poaching situation. And since we're in the Newbie thread, the minority are going to be via networking at this point in the career.
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Feb 24, 2018 16:04
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Xarn posted:TBH my understanding (and personal experience confirms it) is that the most interesting jobs you get via networking, not sending cover letters and CVs to job ads. And once you have the in via networking, cover letter seems really superfluous. A lot of networking still leads into a competitive hiring process, especially when you're talking about desirable jobs. Being in touch with the right people usually gets you the news that somebody's spinning up a new team to use the hot tech du jour, and a pass through the HR filters. But, you'll almost always still need to interview, and chances are good that there are more candidates than positions. A strong resume and cover letter will help you out when you're in an interview cycle that doesn't include your buddy at every step of the way.
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Feb 24, 2018 16:17
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Hughlander posted:I think you're both full of hyperbole. Years of study? So there's no 6 month bootcamps that have turned out graduates? But the attendees of those bootcamps are self-selecting for the experience/traits/proclivities I mentioned. Just getting your foot in the door via a bootcamp certainly doesn't guarantee a long, successful career as a developer. My main point was that this field doesn't have anywhere near the artificial barriers-to-entry that many fields do. Your bootcamp example is proof of that. Low barriers-to-entry doesn't mean that anyone can just pick it up and run with it, though. It's still difficult, and anyone looking at the attrition rate of a comp-sci 101 class could tell you that.
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Feb 24, 2018 16:50
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Keep in mind that I started from self-study and a boot camp.
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Feb 24, 2018 16:57
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feedmegin posted:If it were not, we would all get paid the same as supermarket baggers. It's not like the tech industry /politicians dont do their best to increase the labour supply via pushing STEM education and outsourcing, but it keeps not working. Why do you think that is? the point at issue was whether it is an unusually hard field to get a good job in, not whether the material is difficult
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Feb 24, 2018 16:59
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:unusually hard field to get a good job in This is where I was failing to understand the conversation you guys were having. In my experience getting a good job in tech isn't significantly harder than other fields, but getting a good entry level job isn't easy regardless of the field.
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Feb 24, 2018 17:14
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I got my internship on the back of my coverletter, and their necessity seems to be proportional with the quality of your educational background and work experiences. I'm looking for my second fulltime job right now in Bay Area and from what I can tell most recruiters glance quickly at my skills and then where I went to school and worked. Most of the call is pretty much "I see you went to a top 10 CS school and worked at a top tech company so tell me if you want to work here and I'll set up a screen." I'm currently not sending out cover letters, but I would say the smaller the company the more likely they are to read it as well. A few smaller companies have had a list of questions they want you to answer as part of their recruiting process ("Tell me about something interesting you made outside of work/school", "Tell me what your favorite language is", etc.) that basically act as a cover letter.
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Feb 24, 2018 17:50
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My perspective on cover letters as a hiring manager reading many resumes a day, and spending ~30-45 minutes on the phone with anyone that passes resume screening: A cover letter that is actually specifically tailored to my employer, team, and the role applied to, that explains succinctly things specific to the applicant and the position about e.g. why they're interested, highlights of their background that are especially relevant to some aspect of the company or job, etc, is pretty valuable and will typically at least give stronger consideration to their application. On the other hand, the majority of cover letters are blatant generic copy pastes / templates with absolutely nothing of substance that isn't in the resume. They often clearly demonstrate that the applicant hasn't put any particular thought into the application because, for example, the job title referred to in the cover letter isn't even right. If you send the same cover letter to every company, it's going to be obvious to any competent hiring manager, and it's probably not going to add any value. Most of the time, these cover letters are actually worse than no cover letter. I read all of the resumes of applicants, and if you're adding a bunch of other stuff for me to read that doesn't give me any additional information or reason to talk to you, it doesn't help. Perhaps other hiring managers view a cover letter as another box that must be checked before moving someone on, and think that no cover letter implies no specific interest or motivation for the job, but my opinion is that a generic cover letter implies that more strongly than no cover letter at all. I get people applying for jobs that are clearly just spamming their resume at every job they see posted on LinkedIn/Indeed/whatever (I know this because they apply like 5 times in a month to the same role despite being rejected every time). A cover letter specific to the job makes it clear, at the very least, that you aren't one of those people. Steve French fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Feb 24, 2018 |
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Feb 24, 2018 20:38
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:the point at issue was whether it is an unusually hard field to get a good job in, not whether the material is difficult The two track to a great extent, because of supply and demand - but yeah I guess i agree that first job in particular is hard, mainly i guess because it's hard to prove that someone is good when they have no actual experience to go on yet. But if you mean a good FIRST job you should say so (even itt). Some of us have been doing this 20 years now.
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Feb 24, 2018 21:06
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feedmegin posted:The two track to a great extent, because of supply and demand - but yeah I guess i agree that first job in particular is hard, mainly i guess because it's hard to prove that someone is good when they have no actual experience to go on yet. But if you mean a good FIRST job you should say so (even itt). Some of us have been doing this 20 years now. you still seem very confused about what we were talking about, which is probably why you keep on phrasing posts as if you're disagreeing with me and then arguing in favour of my point I was responding to this: Vincent Valentine posted:Why would you purposely hamstring yourself in a market as hard to find a great job in as tech? and my point is that compared to the vast majority of fields, tech is easier to find a "great job" in, precisely because there is strong demand for programmers relative to the supply of them. obviously, not everything is easy, etc., etc. , but it's silly to act like we have it unusually hard
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Feb 24, 2018 21:26
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When I said "difficult field to get a great job in" I did not mean it was difficult to get a job that pays well. I meant that it is difficult to get a job that doesn't make you want to quit after a year. I don't know about you guys, but there are times where I interview and I can really tell that a place is different. Maybe they are cool with you rolling in at 11am to not have to deal with traffic. Maybe the office has comped lunches. Maybe they consider it a good idea to have you play video games with your co-workers for the last few hours on a Friday. Maybe they have so many products on so many tech stacks that you won't get bored because you can just switch and learn something new. There's a ton of jobs out there, and as a result a huge disparity in terms of good or bad. For example, I am not struggling with reporting a HIPAA violation at my job. There are plenty of jobs in tech. A huge number of them pay well. A huge number of those you will be completely neutral to at best. The ones where you know you will actively enjoy it are a lot more rare, and thus more highly contested. I don't see any reason to purposefully ignore something that could be a potential point in your favor. We're talking about something that becomes half of your life, you want the best, so you need to take every advantage. Especially when the worst that can happen is that they throw fifteen minutes of effort into the trash, and the best that can happen is they latch onto something that makes them call you. Vincent Valentine fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Feb 24, 2018 |
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Feb 24, 2018 21:38
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:and my point is that compared to the vast majority of fields, tech is easier to find a "great job" in, precisely because there is strong demand for programmers relative to the supply of them. obviously, not everything is easy, etc., etc. , but it's silly to act like we have it unusually hard Yeah ok we agree then sorry  if you have the knack for programming in the first place, this is in fact an unusually /easy/ field to get a good job in compared to a whole lot of other fields in TYOOL 2018. Noting of course that any job is well a job, it's not there to give you bjs 40 hours a week whatever career you're in (except if you're Ron Jeremy I guess), it's there so you get paid.
feedmegin fucked around with this message at 21:42 on Feb 24, 2018 |
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Feb 24, 2018 21:39
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Vincent Valentine posted:When I said "difficult field to get a great job in" I did not mean it was difficult to get a job that pays well. I meant that it is difficult to get a job that doesn't make you want to quit after a year. right but still, compared to what? what is the field where people have it better?
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Feb 24, 2018 21:47
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Jeb Bush 2012 posted:right but still, compared to what? what is the field where people have it better? Elected office
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Feb 24, 2018 22:04
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Vincent Valentine posted:When I said "difficult field to get a great job in" I did not mean it was difficult to get a job that pays well. I meant that it is difficult to get a job that doesn't make you want to quit after a year. I think this is very true, but it's much less so for people who are just starting out. It takes a few years and a few jobs to really appreciate the good ones.
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Feb 25, 2018 00:36
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ultrafilter posted:I think this is very true, but it's much less so for people who are just starting out. It takes a few years and a few jobs to really appreciate the good ones. Yup. I'm getting there, myself.
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Feb 25, 2018 00:50
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Pollyanna posted:Keep in mind that I started from self-study and a boot camp. ...and? I can't figure out which side you're on with this statement.
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Feb 25, 2018 01:47
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a hot gujju bhabhi posted:...and? I can't figure out which side you're on with this statement. Sorry, that was a bit of self deprecation.
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Feb 25, 2018 02:02
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Random question as I paper out more resumes, if I got rejected for a job over half a year ago +, and I submit a new re-worked application/cover letter to a new opening, is there a chance my old bad application would hurt me? Also, for those involved in hiring, what's the value in doing those auto-fill out LinkedIn/etc type applications? I normally see openings and then go to the company site to apply, but I don't know which avenue is most favorable. Or if I could be saving myself effort.
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Feb 25, 2018 03:10
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Shirec posted:Random question as I paper out more resumes, if I got rejected for a job over half a year ago +, and I submit a new re-worked application/cover letter to a new opening, is there a chance my old bad application would hurt me? If you interviewed and failed in a memorable way, that's bad. But if you did OK but not well enough, or they never even interviewed you, then you're fine.
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Feb 25, 2018 03:28
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I think that in general a year is enough to try again without any weird feelings attached. Chances are they won't remember you. There are exceptions though, a friend's boss was rejecting people that had been interviewed in 2013.
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Feb 25, 2018 03:37
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Shirec posted:Random question as I paper out more resumes, if I got rejected for a job over half a year ago +, and I submit a new re-worked application/cover letter to a new opening, is there a chance my old bad application would hurt me? Unless you went on a racist rant or something in your cover letter it is probably fine
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Feb 25, 2018 03:38
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Shirec posted:Random question as I paper out more resumes, if I got rejected for a job over half a year ago +, and I submit a new re-worked application/cover letter to a new opening, is there a chance my old bad application would hurt me? In fact, I would say that in the past you were rejected for a lack of experience and now you have experience so... go crazy!
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Feb 25, 2018 07:38
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I'm a young chemical engineer. I regret not taking advantage of my time in school to learn programming. I really liked my control system classes and have had the opportunity to work pretty closely with automation/instrumentation in my industry(pharma). I've done a small amount of ladder logic work. Is this python course a good deal/the real thing? I've never heard of stacksocial and I have a want to start programming but I am having a hard time actually making myself do it. https://stacksocial.com/sales/pwyw-machine-learning-in-python Shirec, I am really sorry that you are in the position that you're in. It is so impressive to see see you building the motivation at the end of your day to send applications out. Great work, hero.
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Feb 26, 2018 06:29
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Hotbod Handsomeface posted:I'm a young chemical engineer. I regret not taking advantage of my time in school to learn programming. I really liked my control system classes and have had the opportunity to work pretty closely with automation/instrumentation in my industry(pharma). I've done a small amount of ladder logic work. I think that $12 is a good price for a starter course. There are free online courses but they will lack a bit in structure and the site often is not build to be user/student friendly. I would say to go for it. The worst that could happen is that you are out of $12 and watched 57h of video with little to show for it. A place for free online training in video format is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=user?thenewboston?playlists With his vids, I started with Java and now I am a dev. I might have done it without him, but it certainly helped me get started. The harder part after picking up a video series you will watch is practise. What should you do to get familiair with a language? I suggest http://open.kattis.com as they have a ton of little exercises that will help you with getting to know the syntax and some libraries. Another part is tooling. Before anyone tells you otherwise: use PyCharm Community Edition. Download it here: https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm/download/#section=mac Unfortunately I am not super at home with Python, but I am sure your course will help you with that and else there are tons of goons who can answer whatever questions you have. Finally: keep a blog and post innocent little progress on the web. Even if you help out only 1 guy/gal, it is worth it.
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Feb 26, 2018 07:34
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Hotbod Handsomeface posted:I'm a young chemical engineer. I regret not taking advantage of my time in school to learn programming. I really liked my control system classes and have had the opportunity to work pretty closely with automation/instrumentation in my industry(pharma). I've done a small amount of ladder logic work. I have no idea if stacksocial is any good. I have taken tons of online courses. I don't think any single one is going to be the perfect course but that price is pretty cheap and I am sure you will learn something. I got my first dev job a year ago purely based on stuff I learned on Linda/Pluralsight/Treehouse/Udemy. I think at that price you can try it out and if it doesn't click move on to something else. These days I mainly use Udemy, they do this thing where they try to create urgency to purchase a course by giving you a 90~95% discount with only 4 hours left in the sale if you follow any google link to their site. So if you were to for example Google, "Complete Python Bootcamp" you would find a pretty well-reviewed python course for like 20 bucks. Shemp the Stooge fucked around with this message at 13:04 on Feb 26, 2018 |
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Feb 26, 2018 07:42
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