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patonthebach posted:In case anyone actually wants to comment on it and missed it... Since bringing up real world arguments with you result in discussions like "is America more like Jamaica or Western Europe?" I'm going to try a different tack. Imagine the world were like an RPG, and you get a piece of equipment that gives +5 to some stat. If you were to equip that, the most important factor in that stat is your character's stat to begin with, but there is still a clear benefit from the bonus. In the same way, greater gun control won't affect firearm homicides sufficiently that the strongest correlation will be with anything other than poverty and income inequality (and those are issues which can also be worked on, even if we implement gun control regulations), but it doesn't matter because the important comparison is between the rates of firearm violence before and after gun control is implemented in the same place. That's how we determine if gun control is effective, and I have no idea why you keep bringing this study up, because it doesn't even pretend to address this, the most important issue.
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Mar 8, 2018 14:15
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patonthebach posted:In case anyone actually wants to comment on it and missed it... E: I like how the first study conveniently excludes the USA, nothing suspicious about that VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 14:23 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 14:19
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PT6A posted:Imagine the world were like an RPG, and you get a piece of equipment that gives +5 to some stat..
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Mar 8, 2018 14:19
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I wanna seduce the dragon You play your cards right and you might win an Oscar!
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Mar 8, 2018 14:32
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Bu...bu..but Jamaica  I love how he still refuses to address his Norway/Switzerland comparisons while ignoring the fact that these two countries, despite firearms ownership parallels, have stronger firearms regulations that we do. I mean, you have to have a 3 month background check to buy AMMO!
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Mar 8, 2018 14:56
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CommieGIR posted:Bu...bu..but Jamaica I also love the way he treats all forms of organized crime/"gangs" as if they're the same, as if there's no difference between street gangs in certain cities in the US and the sort of criminal organizations that are able to move automatic weapons and drugs in and out of Jamaica. It's really 
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Mar 8, 2018 14:58
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It's almost like countries are different
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Mar 8, 2018 15:03
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patonthebach posted:Their conclusions were that poverty/income inequality were the common factors to having high homicide rates. Gun availability/ownership and tight gun regulations did not correlate with having a low homicide rate. Cool, I'm glad the NRA spends their time and money and energy promoting policies that reduce poverty and inequality to make sure that gun owners aren't being unfairly stigmatized for a problem that's not actually related to their toys. Oh, wait? They don't do that? In fact, they align with the party who's most interested in increasing poverty and inequality? WELL I'LL BE DAMNED! mobby_6kl posted:...yeah? Not every single last one of course, there are always going to be some hardliners but on the whole I would bet it would help lower this kind of sentiments dramatically. This seems painfully naive. You don't change people's crazy rear end conspiracy worldviews by making elections fairer, what in the gently caress are you on about? I say "did you see Oregon?" because a man decided to "make a stand against the government" and got shot the gently caress up by the feds and died. Do you think he wouldn't have done that if gerrymandering had been fixed? WampaLord fucked around with this message at 15:07 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 15:04
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Yeah why doesn't the NRA fix banking regulations. Also why doesn't MADD campaign for animal welfare and can the NFL please do something about Syria???
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Mar 8, 2018 15:09
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Rent-A-Cop posted:It's almost like countries are different Its almost like people should stop using those loving comparisons, because Switzerland is a favorite among the Gun Rights group, and thats why he used that comparison, and that is why he is being called out for making it. Rent-A-Cop posted:Yeah why doesn't the NRA fix banking regulations. Also why doesn't MADD campaign for animal welfare and can the NFL please do something about Syria??? Jesus loving christ, if you aren't even going to bother arguing in good faith, don't post. NRA is a Gun Rights (well, Gun Manufacturer's Rights) group, so its within their wheelhouse to be called out for failing to help implement gun regulations and instead fighting against it.
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Mar 8, 2018 15:10
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Yeah why doesn't the NRA fix banking regulations. Also why doesn't MADD campaign for animal welfare and can the NFL please do something about Syria??? If MADD were pro drinking and driving, and responded to any attempt to curb it with "but what about all these other causes of accidents whatabout those huh", then "well why aren't you doing something about that and why are you allying with people trying to make all those causes even worse" would actually be a reasonable question to ask them. Same if the NFL were supporting Assad and responded to any criticism of him with "well whatabout all the other causes of deaths in Syria, heart disease is a real killer u know" VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 15:12
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Yeah why doesn't the NRA fix banking regulations. Also why doesn't MADD campaign for animal welfare and can the NFL please do something about Syria??? loving woooooooooooooooosh CONTEXT motherfucker, do you understand it? Maybe look at the post I'm responding to?  - "Actually, homicides are linked to inequality"me - "Weird how the NRA isn't trying to lower inequality, thus lowering the homicide rate, and taking the heat off guns. In fact, they side with the GOP, a group who favors inequality"  "WHY WOULD THE NRA WANT TO DO ANYTHING BUT FIGHT GUN CONTROL LAWS?"
WampaLord fucked around with this message at 15:20 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 15:17
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CommieGIR posted:Its almost like people should stop using those loving comparisons, because Switzerland is a favorite among the Gun Rights group, and thats why he used that comparison, and that is why he is being called out for making it. Also the NRA is a conservative lobbying group that hates gun control. Why would you ever consider it "in their wheelhouse" to implement gun control? Also it's a good lol that your issue with the NRA is i's failure to help implement the thing it exists to lobby against and not, you know, all the racism. Rent-A-Cop fucked around with this message at 15:22 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 15:18
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Nobody should try to be more like Switzerland.  Why not. You should probably emphasize, especially as its being sold as a Gun Rights paradise by people like patonthebach (and multiple other gun rights memes going around like this one:) Rent-A-Cop posted:Also the NRA is a conservative lobbying group that hates gun control. Why would you ever consider it "in their wheelhouse" to implement gun control? No, its completely reasonable to call out a group that actively fights gun safety legislation while screaming tinfoil hat conspiracy theories and threatening people not of their political persuasion through propaganda to the point that it makes them look like a terrorist group. Stop making bad faith arguments.
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Mar 8, 2018 15:24
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Also it's a good lol that your issue with the NRA is i's failure to help implement the thing it exists to lobby against and not, you know, all the racism. Man being shown countless problems with NRA: "lmao that you're showing off all of these problems when they actually have more problems. I am winning this argument."
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Mar 8, 2018 15:25
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CommieGIR posted:
Also super racist and the whole Nazi collaborators thing.
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Mar 8, 2018 15:31
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Switzerland achieved universal sufferage in 1991. Hey, us too! We should be friends! Seriously, is all you do make bad faith arguments or shift the goal posts?
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Mar 8, 2018 15:33
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CommieGIR posted:Hey, us too! We should be friends!
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Mar 8, 2018 15:39
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CommieGIR posted:Hey, us too! We should be friends! d&d.txt
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Mar 8, 2018 15:41
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CommieGIR posted:
it's one of the most xenophobic, regressive countries in europe. even their gun policies aren't that good since you could just ban guns
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Mar 8, 2018 15:46
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WampaLord posted:loving woooooooooooooooosh Well, the NRA's stance might be pro gun violence.
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Mar 8, 2018 15:54
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So is the rest of this thread just going to be LC and R-a-C endlessly doubling down on "you can't criticize the NRA's sincerely held religious beliefs, that's just mean" as they desperately try to shut down debate without having to actually defend their impossible positions.
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Mar 8, 2018 15:57
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The NRA sucks hth
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Mar 8, 2018 16:01
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Rent a cop doesn't have actual positions here, he's just thoroughly dedicated to poo poo posting.
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Mar 8, 2018 16:02
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sirtommygunn posted:Rent a cop doesn't have actual positions here, he's just thoroughly dedicated to poo poo posting. All rent-a-cops are bastards.
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Mar 8, 2018 16:02
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botany posted:it's one of the most xenophobic, regressive countries in europe. even their gun policies aren't that good since you could just ban guns Must be why its used as an example of gun rights by gun groups all over the US. Its really about the racism.
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Mar 8, 2018 16:04
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PT6A posted:All rent-a-cops are bastards.
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Mar 8, 2018 16:05
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Has there been any studies in certain states or cities in the USA where there has been tighter gun control and how it effected shootings there? edit : Or a country with a similar rate of gun violence to the USA before the gun control measures? vincentpricesboner fucked around with this message at 16:45 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 16:43
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zapplez posted:Has there been any studies in certain states or cities in the USA where there has been tighter gun control and how it effected shootings there? Yes. Sorry, that was a bit terse. Yes, lots.
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Mar 8, 2018 17:29
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zapplez posted:Has there been any studies in certain states or cities in the USA where there has been tighter gun control and how it effected shootings there? Hi! Welcome to gunchat page 25. Where there are 25 pages of exactly that.
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Mar 8, 2018 17:33
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zapplez posted:Has there been any studies in certain states or cities in the USA where there has been tighter gun control and how it effected shootings there? Twenty five pages of it, turns out it's less effective when you're only an hour away from somewhere where you can buy guns
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Mar 8, 2018 17:35
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MixMastaTJ posted:Hi! Welcome to gunchat page 25. Where there are 25 pages of exactly that.
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Mar 8, 2018 17:35
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Okay, any particular pages where there are studies like that discussed? Ive read the past five and didn't see any like that.
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Mar 8, 2018 17:50
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Arguing from statistics is fine if you're trying to make a quantitative point, but it's not typically going to be persuasive, because even if you can agree on the mathematical stuff, people are liable to infer different things from the same data, and that inference is not really made from a rational place. It's more of a philosophical, emotional decision. There are many examples indicating that reducing the number of weapons in a populations results in a decline in people getting killed by those weapons, and since guns are a tool that can kill lots of people quickly, incidents where lots of people are quickly killed by a lone rear end in a top hat are reduced. Shorter version: It can work. It has worked. If we wanted to, as a country, we could make it work. Currently, too many of us don't want to try. Pro-Gun arguments come in the form of: - Deification of the countries founders - Appeals to objective rights, god-given "freedoms" - Appeals to the right of any and all self defense measures if they feel threatened and other forms of nebulous, unconvincing bullshit. It's a difference of values, and that one is hard to argue away rationally. Pro-Gun folks value their toys and masturbatory self defense fantasies more than the nation's ability to prevent mass shootings and in general reduce gun deaths. They're just not very honest about it, so you'll get lost in pedantry, deflection and a bunch of attempts to stifle meaningful discourse until we all get distracted enough so that nothing happens. r.y.f.s.o. fucked around with this message at 17:52 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 17:50
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zapplez posted:Okay, any particular pages where there are studies like that discussed? Ive read the past five and didn't see any like that. botany posted:https://academic.oup.com/epirev/article/38/1/140/2754868 It keeps getting buried with pages and pages of bad-faith arguments and endless pedantry over whether a shooting at a school is a school shooting, whether drive-bys are a problem if the bullets didn't actually hit anyone this time, and whether money influences politicians.
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Mar 8, 2018 17:53
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r.y.f.s.o. posted:Shorter version: It can work. It has worked. If we wanted to, as a country, we could make it work. Currently, too many of us don't want to try.
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Mar 8, 2018 18:04
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twodot posted:Like if we for sure know that other countries gun control systems would work in America, and we for sure know enacting those systems is untenable in America, what's left to talk about other than pedantry?
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Mar 8, 2018 18:07
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Elizabethan Error posted:how do you know that 'for sure'? gun control laws get poo poo on by the NRA and those they represent so what comes out of the legislative process is what's left after the inevitable neutering
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Mar 8, 2018 18:11
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Elizabethan Error posted:how do you know that 'for sure'? gun control laws get poo poo on by the NRA and those they represent so what comes out of the legislative process is what's left after the inevitable neutering
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Mar 8, 2018 18:16
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VitalSigns posted:It keeps getting buried with pages and pages of bad-faith arguments and endless pedantry over whether a shooting at a school is a school shooting, whether drive-bys are a problem if the bullets didn't actually hit anyone this time, and whether money influences politicians. Thanks for a link on this study. Spent some time reading it over. I was expecting an assault weapon ban this year and this says the previous one wasn't effective. 1994 Federal assault weapons ban, United States This law banned the sales and ownership of semiautomatic firearms and large-capacity ammunition magazines. Koper and Roth (76) using UCR data (1980–1995) found no association between the law and homicide rates in 15 states after adjusting for the presence of other firearm laws and crime laws in New York and California. A recent study by Gius (48) showed that the federal assault weapons ban was associated with higher rates of firearm homicides. Other measures the study says were ineffective or counterintuitive US Gun Control Act of 1968 didn't affect gun murders Shall issue laws reduces homicides in one study, didnt seem to do anything in five others, and had increased the chances of firearms injuries/deaths in another. A more recent comprehensive study said shall issue laws prevented more homicides. Saturday night special (cheap pistol) laws didnt seem to have an effect The Victoria ban had a 14% reduction in overall firearms deaths, but didn't lower the rate of homicides. (however the later Australia gun control act had more studies saying it helped then that didnt see a decrease. Gun buy backs didnt seem to work in US cities. Canada's gun laws in 1977 didnt seem to lower homicide rates. It might have helped with suicide rates but the findings arent conclusive. Things that were found almost universally effective "Tough on crime" minimum sentences for gun crimes ( I thought it would be the opposite!) Background checks Screening from domestic violence Having to get licensed to purchase a firearm lowered suicide rates Firearms storage laws reduced accidents and suicides The Austrian gun control measures worked well. The New Zealand gun control measures seemed to prevent more young people from committing suicide. South Africas gun control measures helped significantly there with homicide rates. Was worth the half an hour really pouring over this. Pretty interesting metastudy. patonthebach fucked around with this message at 18:35 on Mar 8, 2018 |
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Mar 8, 2018 18:26
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