gunchat: abandon all hope ye who enter here

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Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

captainblastum posted:

Hey Liquid Communism if you've got a problem with this thread don't be a coward and post about it in TFR.

I'm pretty sure that's nothing I didn't already say in here, which is why I quit reading the thread to watch the same handful of people try and shout down anyone they feel is insufficiently anti-gun.

stone cold posted:

lmao

lmaoooooooo

Do you have a rebuttal, or were you just bored?

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

Having a gun literally always raises the odds of a fatality. Shut the gently caress up with this "wow you just don't want poc or gay people to be able to defend themselves" horseshit

I know you're just being hostile to get your daily dose of sanctioned bullying, but yes, this is true. I am, on the whole, not going to regret the death of an attacker if someone shoots them, beyond it being a waste of a life that they could have chosen not to risk. There is a reason for the legal concept of justified homicide, and thankfully it's not one that comes up as often as it could. A couple hundred times a year, though.

More people who aren't dead now because they were able to defend themselves than killed by AR-15's a year.

Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Mar 10, 2018

# ? Mar 10, 2018 22:36

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 08:13

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

I think the hardest argument to overcome with guns is the self-defense one. I don't mean it's the hardest one to hand-wave away or insult the counterparty on, I mean it's the hardest argument to convince people of.

The washington post gives the FBI's figure on self defense homicides at about 250 per year, which seems about on par with gun massacre deaths. The FBI's number doesn't include people who were shot in self defense but didn't die, but on the other hand, 'mass shooting deaths' don't include the people who were injured or had their lives shattered in other ways either. From a cursory look it seems like the scale of both phenomena is pretty comparable.

Many people don't live in areas where 'gang violence' and other big drivers of the national gun homicide rate are big concerns, so it can be hard to convince them that they should give up their guns, since they probably don't feel like they'd receive the same benefit as other populations would if guns somehow all vanished, they'd just feel that they'd been deprived of their means of self-defense. It's the random indiscriminate 'lunatic with a gun' massacres that the average person probably sees as the most likely way for him to be murdered with a gun, whether this belief is well-founded or not. It's the main impetus of the push to ban or regulate assault rifles, at any rate. Even if you could convince people that they will almost certainly never need a gun for self defense, one of their articles of faith is that "it is better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it."

So, how do you convince someone to give up his or her means of self-defense? The most obvious argument seems to be the 'tragedy of the commons', that even with her pistol, she is less safe than she would be if hardly anyone had a gun.

People like a sense of agency though, so for many people that would be a trade-off they were willing to take. At least with a gun, they'd think, they would have some control over their fate in many situations they can easily imagine. In the same way, people can undertake to be especially safe and responsible in the handling of their gun, and that way set aside in their minds any argument that accidental shootings are more common than self-defense shootings.

For my own part, the self-defense argument is the only plausibly compelling one for gun ownership. Should we deprive people in the final extremity of the means to defend their lives against evildoers? I don't know.

# ? Mar 10, 2018 22:55

WampaLord: Jan 14, 2010

hakimashou posted:

At least with a gun, they'd think, they would have some control over their fate in many situations they can easily imagine.

So we have to coddle this false belief despite the increasing body count?

*looks at hands* Wow, this is all so hard. Is coddling idiots who think a gun makes them safer worth thousands of deaths? Gee whillikers, sure is a lot to think about.

This isn't the Wild loving West, you don't have to defend yourself against """""evildoers""""" with a loving gun.

# ? Mar 10, 2018 22:58

hakimashou: Jul 15, 2002; Upset Trowel

WampaLord posted:

So we have to coddle this false belief despite the increasing body count?

*looks at hands* Wow, this is all so hard. Is coddling idiots who think a gun makes them safer worth thousands of deaths? Gee whillikers, sure is a lot to think about.

This isn't the Wild loving West, you don't have to defend yourself against """""evildoers""""" with a loving gun.

Some people do though.

And in democracy we absolutely have to coddle all kinds of false beliefs, that's the biggest downside to it.

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:02

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Liquid Communism posted:

I'm pretty sure that's nothing I didn't already say in here, which is why I quit reading the thread to watch the same handful of people try and shout down anyone they feel is insufficiently anti-gun.

Do you have a rebuttal, or were you just bored?

I know you're just being hostile to get your daily dose of sanctioned bullying, but yes, this is true. I am, on the whole, not going to regret the death of an attacker if someone shoots them, beyond it being a waste of a life that they could have chosen not to risk. There is a reason for the legal concept of justified homicide, and thankfully it's not one that comes up as often as it could. A couple hundred times a year, though.

More people who aren't dead now because they were able to defend themselves than killed by AR-15's a year.

one specific type of gun, cool cool cool

meanwhile

quote:

In 2012, across the nation there were only 259 justifiable homicides involving a private citizen using a firearm reported to the Federal Bureau of Investigation�s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program as detailed in its Supplementary Homicide Report (SHR). That same year, there were 8,342 criminal gun homicides tallied in the SHR. In 2012, for every justifiable homicide in the United States involving a gun, guns were used in 32 criminal homicides. And this ratio, of course, does not take into account the tens of thousands of lives ended in gun suicides or unintentional shootings that year.

quote:

In 2012, there were only 259 justifiable homicides involving a gun. For the five-year period 2008 through 2012, there were only 1,108 justifiable homicides involving a gun.

quote:

In 2012 there were 20,666 firearm suicide deaths and 548 fatal unintentional shootings. Source: Federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention WISQARS database.

quote:

The reality of self-defense gun use bears no resemblance to the exaggerated claims of the gun lobby and gun industry. The number of justifiable homicides that occur in our nation each year pale in comparison to criminal homicides, let alone gun suicides and fatal unintentional shootings. And contrary to the common stereotype promulgated by the gun lobby, those killed in justifiable homicide incidents don�t always fit the expected profile of an attack by a stranger: in 35.5 percent of the justifiable homicides that occurred in 2012 the persons shot were known to the shooter.

The devastation guns inflict on our nation each and every year is clear: more than 33,000 dead, more than 81,000 wounded, and an untold number of lives traumatized and communities shattered. Unexamined claims of the efficacy and frequency of the self-defense use of firearms are the default rationale offered by the gun lobby and gun industry for this unceasing, bloody toll. The idea that firearms are frequently used in self-defense is the primary argument that the gun lobby and firearms industry use to expand the carrying of firearms into an ever-increasing number of public spaces and even to prevent the regulation of military-style semiautomatic assault weapons and high-capacity ammunition magazines. Yet this argument is hollow and the assertions false. When analyzing the most reliable data available, what is most striking is that in a nation of more than 300 million guns, how rarely firearms are used in self-defense.

e: guns aren�t tools guns are for tools

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:15

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

Okay, so just to make sure we're on the same page, you're cool with ~200 more people being murdered a year because they are deprived of the tools to defend themselves?

I mean, to use WaPo's numbers that keep getting pulled up, there have been 1077 mass shooting deaths in the US since 1 August 1966. Less in 42 years than you quote for justified homicides in four.

That's clearly a sufficient number to get people up in arms. Are those lives worth ten times more than those of people defending themselves?

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:25

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Liquid Communism posted:

Okay, so just to make sure we're on the same page, you're cool with ~200 more people being murdered a year because they are deprived of the tools to defend themselves?

I mean, to use WaPo's numbers that keep getting pulled up, there have been 1077 mass shooting deaths in the US since 1 August 1966. Less in 42 years than you quote for justified homicides in four.

That's clearly a sufficient number to get people up in arms. Are those lives worth ten times more than those of people defending themselves?

save the 200 people by killing the 30,000

a smart moral calculus

e:

stone cold fucked around with this message at 23:33 on Mar 10, 2018

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:30

Absurd Alhazred: Mar 27, 2010; by Athanatos

stone cold posted:

save the 200 people by killing the 30,000

a smart moral calculus

I wonder how many of those 30,000 were murdered with guns belonging to their victims, too.

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:33

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Absurd Alhazred posted:

I wonder how many of those 30,000 were murdered with guns belonging to their victims, too.

im rounding down but a good two thirds~ of that number is suicides so

:smith:

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:35

twodot: Aug 7, 2005; You are objectively correct that this person is dumb and has said dumb things

QuarkJets posted:

Deaths and injuries are subsets of incidents so obviously there were a lot of incidents (regardless of what that means) that did not lead to death or injury

This can't possibly be true, there was more than 346 injuries in the Las Vegas shooting by itself so incidents can't include injuries. Shouldn't we just agree that "incidents" is a stupid metric and blame r.y.f.s.o. for bringing them up and instead focus on gun deaths vs mass shooting deaths (which is 0.3%)?

twodot fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Mar 10, 2018

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:35

Raldikuk: Apr 7, 2006; I'm bad with money and I want that meatball!

Liquid Communism posted:

Okay, so just to make sure we're on the same page, you're cool with ~200 more people being murdered a year because they are deprived of the tools to defend themselves?

I mean, to use WaPo's numbers that keep getting pulled up, there have been 1077 mass shooting deaths in the US since 1 August 1966. Less in 42 years than you quote for justified homicides in four.

That's clearly a sufficient number to get people up in arms. Are those lives worth ten times more than those of people defending themselves?

Of course included in that "justifiable homicide" figure are all of the "self defense" kills Texans do that wouldnt actually result in their death. Like the dude shooting a burglar running with a tv from his neighbors house when cops were on the scene. Or the prostitute who was killed for refusing service. Or maybe like Zimmerman's case in Florida? Yup ur right clearly every instance of a justifiable homicide would have resulted in that persons death otherwise. Yes sir, lmbo

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:37

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

If 20,000 people want to kill themselves, the issue isn't method, it's motivation. We'll probably disagree pretty heavily on that, though.

Raldikuk posted:

Of course included in that "justifiable homicide" figure are all of the "self defense" kills Texans do that wouldnt actually result in their death. Like the dude shooting a burglar running with a tv from his neighbors house when cops were on the scene. Or the prostitute who was killed for refusing service. Or maybe like Zimmerman's case in Florida? Yup ur right clearly every instance of a justifiable homicide would have resulted in that persons death otherwise. Yes sir, lmbo

Per the statistics, that metric is 'The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.' I don't generally support instant death as a response to felonies (because we have some bullshit felonies, hello drug war), but that's how the FBI chose to break that number out, and as noted I'm fully okay with the use of lethal force in self defense if required to prevent imminent death, grievous bodily harm, or sexual assault.

Defense of property, on the other hand, is bullshit. Texas can go take a flying leap into the Gulf on that one.

Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Mar 10, 2018

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:43

patonthebach: Aug 22, 2016; by R. Guyovich

WampaLord posted:

So we have to coddle this false belief despite the increasing body count?

*looks at hands* Wow, this is all so hard. Is coddling idiots who think a gun makes them safer worth thousands of deaths? Gee whillikers, sure is a lot to think about.

This isn't the Wild loving West, you don't have to defend yourself against """""evildoers""""" with a loving gun.

So no one needs a gun for protection no matter how dangerous a place they live or the area they work?

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:46

Raldikuk: Apr 7, 2006; I'm bad with money and I want that meatball!

Liquid Communism posted:

If 20,000 people want to kill themselves, the issue isn't method, it's motivation. We'll probably disagree pretty heavily on that, though.

Per the statistics, that metric is 'The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.' I don't generally support instant death as a response to felonies (because we have some bullshit felonies, hello drug war), but that's how the FBI chose to break that number out, and as noted I'm fully okay with the use of lethal force in self defense if required to prevent imminent death, grievous bodily harm, or sexual assault.

Defense of property, on the other hand, is bullshit. Texas can go take a flying leap into the Gulf on that one.

Good thing felonies only result in deaths of others. Oh wait all of the instances i listed involved purported felonies.

To be clear I am fine with someonenactually defending themselves from grievous harm or death. I just dont think the justifiable homicide metric is a good way to see how many true self defense situations happened.

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:53

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Liquid Communism posted:

If 20,000 people want to kill themselves, the issue isn't method, it's motivation. We'll probably disagree pretty heavily on that, though.

Per the statistics, that metric is 'The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.' I don't generally support instant death as a response to felonies, but that's how the FBI chose to break that number out, and as noted I'm fully okay with the use of lethal force in self defense if required to prevent imminent death, grievous bodily harm, or sexual assault.

Defense of property, on the other hand, is bullshit. Texas can go take a flying leap into the Gulf on that one.

some more fun statistics

quote:

More Americans die in gun homicides and suicides every six months than have died in the last 25 years in every terrorist attack and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.

More Americans have died from guns in the United States since 1968 than on battlefields of all the wars in American history.

American children are 14 times as likely to die from guns as children in other developed countries, according to David Hemenway, a Harvard professor and author of an excellent book on firearm safety.

my favorite fact check

quote:

Here�s a summary of deaths by major conflict:

War Deaths
Revolutionary War 4,435
War of 1812 2,260
Mexican War 13,283
Civil War (Union and Confederate, estimate) 750,000
Spanish-American War 2,446
World War I 116,516
World War II 405,399
Korean War 36,574
Vietnam War 58,220
Persian Gulf War 383
Afghanistan War 2,363
Iraq War 4,492
Other wars (includes Lebanon, Grenada, Panama, Somalia and Haiti)
362
TOTAL
1,396,733

quote:

As we did in our previous fact-check, we used a conservative estimate of data from a 1994 paper published by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to count gun-related deaths from 1968 to 1980. For 1981 through 2013, we used annual data sets from CDC. Finally, for 2014 and the first eight months of 2015, we estimated that the number of gun-related deaths were equal to the rate during the previous three full years for which we have data � 2011 to 2013.

Here is a summary. The figures below refer to total deaths caused by firearms:

Years Firearm-related deaths
1968 to 1980 377,000
1981 to 1998 620,525
1999 to 2013 464,033
2014
(estimated based on rate from 2011-2013)
33,183
2015
(estimated based on rate from 2011-2013)
22,122
TOTAL, 1968-2015
1,516,863

So the statistic still holds up: There have been 1,516,863 gun-related deaths since 1968, compared to 1,396,733 cumulative war deaths since the American Revolution. That�s 120,130 more gun deaths than war deaths -- about 9 percent more, or nearly four typical years worth of gun deaths. And that�s using the most generous scholarly estimate of Civil War deaths, the biggest component of American war deaths.

fwiw they got pretty close on their 2014 guess. 2014 clocked out at 33,599 deaths due to firearms

way off base on 2015 though; 2015 had 36,252 deaths thanks to firearms

glad we killed these million and a half people to save like, eighteen thousand at best

# ? Mar 10, 2018 23:57

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Liquid Communism posted:

I'm pretty sure that's nothing I didn't already say in here, which is why I quit reading the thread to watch the same handful of people try and shout down anyone they feel is insufficiently anti-gun.

Do you have a rebuttal, or were you just bored?

I know you're just being hostile to get your daily dose of sanctioned bullying, but yes, this is true. I am, on the whole, not going to regret the death of an attacker if someone shoots them, beyond it being a waste of a life that they could have chosen not to risk. There is a reason for the legal concept of justified homicide, and thankfully it's not one that comes up as often as it could. A couple hundred times a year, though.

More people who aren't dead now because they were able to defend themselves than killed by AR-15's a year.

Owning a gun raises the odds of you being shot though you disingenuous turd

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:01

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Liquid Communism posted:

If 20,000 people want to kill themselves, the issue isn't method, it's motivation. We'll probably disagree pretty heavily on that, though.

Per the statistics, that metric is 'The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.' I don't generally support instant death as a response to felonies (because we have some bullshit felonies, hello drug war), but that's how the FBI chose to break that number out, and as noted I'm fully okay with the use of lethal force in self defense if required to prevent imminent death, grievous bodily harm, or sexual assault.

Defense of property, on the other hand, is bullshit. Texas can go take a flying leap into the Gulf on that one.

Yeah we will, and every study on the subject will disagree with you too. Turns out that barriers will give someone an extra moment to think and in many cases change their mind. Making it harder to get guns, or getting rid of them so people have to pick another method, will absolutely lower the number of suicides

I like that you tsk tsk in the gun shithead treehouse about how you're not allowed to know anything and then immediately come in here and trip on your dick

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:04

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

patonthebach posted:

So no one needs a gun for protection no matter how dangerous a place they live or the area they work?

Considering that they don't actually make you safer, and in fact make you less safe, no, nobody lives in that fantasy realm

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:04

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

Raldikuk posted:

Good thing felonies only result in deaths of others. Oh wait all of the instances i listed involved purported felonies.

To be clear I am fine with someonenactually defending themselves from grievous harm or death. I just dont think the justifiable homicide metric is a good way to see how many true self defense situations happened.

I think it's workable as a rough number, because I consider it is a safe assumption that the number of people shot in self defense who did not die, and number of times discovering the victim was armed ended an attack is at least equal to the number of people shot over property. I'm having trouble finding concrete numbers, as everyone in the conversation keeps referencing the Bureau of Justice Statistics' National Crime Victimization Survey for numbers on methods of self defense, but the chart mentioned isn't in the last few years' reports.

Using the VPC numbers, which claim to be sourced from BJS, they call out 175,700 self-reported incidents of responding to violent crime with a firearm in the 3 year 2013-2015 period. I'd be surprised if that wasn't low, but it's a workable number.

Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 00:27 on Mar 11, 2018

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:18

patonthebach: Aug 22, 2016; by R. Guyovich

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

Considering that they don't actually make you safer, and in fact make you less safe, no, nobody lives in that fantasy realm

So it would be safer for cops working in Baltimore to go out without a handgun?

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:26

Two Feet From Bread: Apr 20, 2009; I'm. A. Fucking. Nazi.

please punch me in the face
i love it
give it to me daddy; College Slice

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

Yeah we will, and every study on the subject will disagree with you too. Turns out that barriers will give someone an extra moment to think and in many cases change their mind. Making it harder to get guns, or getting rid of them so people have to pick another method, will absolutely lower the number of suicides

I like that you tsk tsk in the gun shithead treehouse about how you're not allowed to know anything and then immediately come in here and trip on your dick

Oh, cool. Glad it was that simple. Now, I totally believe you but I want to check to see the suicide rates just to confirm that firearm access causes suicides.

What is this? Turns out it doesn't and there isn't even a strong correlation. Well, guess you're wrong. Glad we could clear this up. Almost took away a civil right for a made up lie.

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:29

Unoriginal Name: Aug 1, 2006; by sebmojo

patonthebach posted:

So it would be safer for cops working in Baltimore to go out without a handgun?

certainly be safer for the populace

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:34

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Liquid Communism posted:

I think it's workable as a rough number, because I consider it is a safe assumption that the number of people shot in self defense who did not die, and number of times discovering the victim was armed ended an attack is at least equal to the number of people shot over property. I'm having trouble finding concrete numbers, as everyone in the conversation keeps referencing the Bureau of Justice Statistics' National Crime Victimization Survey for numbers on methods of self defense, but the chart mentioned isn't in the last few years' reports.

Using the VPC numbers, which claim to be sourced from BJS, they call out 175,700 self-reported incidents of responding to violent crime with a firearm in the 3 year 2013-2015 period. I'd be surprised if that wasn't low, but it's a workable number.

it�s a bit disingenuous to only cite the number of firearm responses and leave these bits out, because you�re giving a number with zero context

quote:

VIOLENT CRIME
According to the NCVS, looking at the total number of self-protective behaviors undertaken by victims of both attempted and completed violent crime for the three-year period 2013 through 2015, in only 1.1 percent of these instances had the intended victim in resistance to a criminal �threatened or attacked with a firearm.�11 As detailed in the chart on the next page, for the three-year period 2013 through 2015, the NCVS estimates that there were 16,492,600 victims of attempted or completed violent crime. During this same three-year period, only 175,700 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm. Of this number, it is not known what type of firearm was used or whether it was fired or not. The number may also include off-duty law enforcement officers who use their firearms in self-defense.

quote:

According to the NCVS, looking at the total number of self-protective behaviors undertaken by victims of attempted or completed property crime for the three-year period 2013 through 2015, in only 0.2 percent of these instances had the intended victim in resistance to a criminal threatened or attacked with a firearm. As detailed in the prior table, for the three-year period 2013 through 2015, the NCVS estimates that there were 46,673,600 victims of attempted or completed property crime. During this same three-year period, only 109,000 of the self-protective behaviors involved a firearm. Of this number, it is not known what type of firearm was used, whether it was fired or not, or whether the use of a gun would even be a legal response to the property crime. And as before, the number may also include off-duty law enforcement officers. In comparison, data from the Department of Justice shows that an average of 232,400 guns were stolen each year from U.S. households from 2005 to 2010.

COMPARING NCVS DATA TO CLAIMS THAT GUNS ARE USED IN SELF-DEFENSE 2.5 MILLION TIMES A YEAR
Using the NCVS numbers, for the three-year period 2013 through 2015, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 284,700. In comparison, the gun lobby claims that during the same three-year period guns were used 7.5 million times in self defense (applying to the three-year period the gun lobby�s oft-repeated claim, noted earlier, that firearms are used in self defense 2.5 million times a year).

CONCLUSION
The reality of self-defense gun use bears no resemblance to the exaggerated claims of the gun lobby and gun industry. The number of justifiable homicides that occur in our nation each year pale in comparison to criminal homicides, let alone gun suicides and fatal unintentional shootings. And contrary to the common stereotype promulgated by the gun lobby, those killed in justifiable homicide incidents don�t always fit the expected profile of an attack by a stranger: in 34.4 percent of the justifiable homicides that occurred in 2014 the persons shot and killed were known to the shooter.

hth

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:36

botany: Apr 27, 2013; by Lowtax

patonthebach posted:

So it would be safer for cops working in Baltimore to go out without a handgun?

this might well be the dumbest post in this thread, congrats

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:37

patonthebach: Aug 22, 2016; by R. Guyovich

Unoriginal Name posted:

certainly be safer for Freddie Gray

Do you think he got shot?

Some serious corn cobbing going on in this thread now. Guess you feel I actually won a point

patonthebach fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Mar 11, 2018

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:38

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

stone cold posted:

it�s a bit disingenuous to only cite the number of firearm responses and leave these bits out, because you�re giving a number with zero context

hth

You'll note I'm not defending the 2.5 million number, nor claiming that number represents shootings that occurred. If the person defending themselves is an off duty cop or not does not matter in the slightest, as police who are not working at the time are regular citizens same as you and me. They just get concealed handgun permits more easily ~~and their buddies are more likely to be able to cover up a murder~~.

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:43

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Two Feet From Bread posted:

Oh, cool. Glad it was that simple. Now, I totally believe you but I want to check to see the suicide rates just to confirm that firearm access causes suicides.

What is this? Turns out it doesn't and there isn't even a strong correlation. Well, guess you're wrong. Glad we could clear this up. Almost took away a civil right for a made up lie.

hmmmm

quote:

Every study that has examined the issue to date has found that within the U.S., access to firearms is associated with increased suicide risk.

hmmmmmm

quote:

A study by the Harvard School of Public Health of all 50 U.S. states reveals a powerful link between rates of firearm ownership and suicides. Based on a survey of American households conducted in 2002, HSPH Assistant Professor of Health Policy and Management Matthew Miller, Research Associate Deborah Azrael, and colleagues at the School�s Injury Control Research Center (ICRC), found that in states where guns were prevalent�as in Wyoming, where 63 percent of households reported owning guns�rates of suicide were higher. The inverse was also true: where gun ownership was less common, suicide rates were also lower.

hmmmmm

hmmmmmmmm

quote:

Liza Gold, M.D., clinical professor of psychiatry at Georgetown University School of Medicine and editor of the recently published Gun Violence and Mental Illness, said in Psychiatric News that �only two interventions have been demonstrated to be effective in decreasing suicide mortality: physician education in suicide risk assessment and restriction of lethal means.� She argues that routine psychiatric evaluation should include asking about access to firearms in the home.

The American Academy of Pediatrics also recommends action to protect adolescents, particularly those that may be at increased risk: �The presence of guns in the home increases the risk of lethal suicidal acts among adolescents. Health care professionals should counsel the parents of all adolescents to remove guns from the home or restrict access to them. This advice should be reiterated and reinforced for patients with mood disorders, substance abuse problems (including alcohol), or a history of suicide attempts.�

The Brady Center report concludes, �limiting easy access to a gun for someone who considers or even attempts suicide can literally be the difference between life and death.�

hmmmmmmm

quote:

Results. Suicide rates were higher in rural compared with urban counties. However, the higher rural suicide rates were limited to firearm suicides (incident rate ratio [IRR] = 1.66; 95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.20, 2.31). Nonfirearm suicide rates were not significantly higher in rural settings. Furthermore, 89% of firearm suicides occurred in men and the higher rural firearm suicide rate was limited to men (IRR = 1.36; 95% CI = 1.09, 1.69). Women were significantly less likely to complete suicide in rural areas (IRR = 0.63; 95% CI = 0.43, 0.94), regardless of method.

Conclusions. Male firearm use drives the increased rate of suicide in rural areas. The opposite associations between urbanicity and suicide in men and women may be driven by the male preference for firearms as a method for committing suicide.

�made up lie�

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:46

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Liquid Communism posted:

You'll note I'm not defending the 2.5 million number, nor claiming that number represents shootings that occurred. If the person defending themselves is an off duty cop or not does not matter in the slightest, as police who are not working at the time are regular citizens same as you and me. They just get concealed handgun permits more easily ~~and their buddies are more likely to be able to cover up a murder~~.

if you�re gonna claim self defense is worth it you should post all the numbers

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:47

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

patonthebach posted:

So it would be safer for cops working in Baltimore to go out without a handgun?

Yes but for everyone else in Baltimore too, also you can stop with your fantasy hypotheticals literally any time now

# ? Mar 11, 2018 00:58

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Two Feet From Bread posted:

Oh, cool. Glad it was that simple. Now, I totally believe you but I want to check to see the suicide rates just to confirm that firearm access causes suicides.

What is this? Turns out it doesn't and there isn't even a strong correlation. Well, guess you're wrong. Glad we could clear this up. Almost took away a civil right for a made up lie.

I didn't say firearm access caused suicide, but thanks for playing. What I actually said was, making it harder slash impossible to get a gun will decrease the number of suicides in a year because that barrier is all it takes for many people to stop and go huh you know this was a bad idea

And it's not just guns, guns are just the one people get the maddest about. Bridges are being built with fences to make it more difficult for people to jump, as a quick example that we've got proof works

But by all means bumbledick your way through this one

# ? Mar 11, 2018 01:02

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

I didn't say firearm access caused suicide, but thanks for playing. What I actually said was, making it harder slash impossible to get a gun will decrease the number of suicides in a year because that barrier is all it takes for many people to stop and go huh you know this was a bad idea

And it's not just guns, guns are just the one people get the maddest about. Bridges are being built with fences to make it more difficult for people to jump, as a quick example that we've got proof works

But by all means bumbledick your way through this one

also, there�s a strong correlation between firearm access and suicides in the us

# ? Mar 11, 2018 01:05

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

stone cold posted:

if you�re gonna claim self defense is worth it you should post all the numbers

If we assume every gun used in a homicide in the US is stolen, you're still looking at ~230,000 stolen firearms a year that don't get used in a murder.

Almost like the two aren't strongly statistically correlated.

Studies have to strive to come to the obvious conclusion that higher gun ownership rates may make guns a more likely choice for suicides, but international comparison of overall suicide rates in first world countries show no correlation to gun ownership rates.

Suicide by gun not making someone somehow more dead than suicide by other method, I see no point to targeting the firearm suicide rate specifically. I generally believe that actually addressing treatment of the conditions that lead people to suicide is more likely to reduce our overall suicide rate.

# ? Mar 11, 2018 01:06

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

stone cold posted:

also, there’s a strong correlation between firearm access and suicides in the us

That's because of the thing I said though, not because guns make you kill yourself

# ? Mar 11, 2018 01:06

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Liquid Communism posted:

If we assume every gun used in a homicide in the US is stolen, you're still looking at ~230,000 stolen firearms a year that don't get used in a murder.

Almost like the two aren't strongly statistically correlated.

Studies have to strive to come to the obvious conclusion that higher gun ownership rates may make guns a more likely choice for suicides, but international comparison of overall suicide rates in first world countries show no correlation to gun ownership rates.

Suicide by gun not making someone somehow more dead than suicide by other method, I see no point to targeting the firearm suicide rate specifically. I generally believe that actually addressing treatment of the conditions that lead people to suicide is more likely to reduce our overall suicide rate.

You're right, we should put barriers in place to give people a moment to think before they commit suicide. Oh what's that people are already doing that and only throw this big of a poo poo fit about how it's not worth it over guns? No poo poo? drat.

# ? Mar 11, 2018 01:09

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Liquid Communism posted:

If we assume every gun used in a homicide in the US is stolen, you're still looking at ~230,000 stolen firearms a year that don't get used in a murder.

Almost like the two aren't strongly statistically correlated.

mmm looks like owning guns legitimately also leads to firearms homicides, we should ban all guns

Liquid Communism posted:

Studies have to strive to come to the obvious conclusion that higher gun ownership rates may make guns a more likely choice for suicides, but international comparison of overall suicide rates in first world countries show no correlation to gun ownership rates.

Suicide by gun not making someone somehow more dead than suicide by other method, I see no point to targeting the firearm suicide rate specifically. I generally believe that actually addressing treatment of the conditions that lead people to suicide is more likely to reduce our overall suicide rate.

hilarious to use the phrase �first world� in 2018 when kids born after the soviet union died are old enough to own your favorite thing: guns. anyways, gee it�s almost like the situations aren�t comparable because the rest of the world doesn�t have as many guns as we do, by a lot

it�s also almost like we can do multiple things that are good for society, like both increasing mental health support and also limiting access to firearms

it�s also almost like for the us specifically, not trying to confuse the data by adding more countries in a deliberate effort to obfuscate the situation because toys, reduction to firearm access would lead to less suicides based on all the available data itt

it�s almost like your blasty toy isn�t worth it

# ? Mar 11, 2018 01:14

Liquid Communism: Mar 9, 2004; коммунизм хранится в яичках

stone cold posted:

mmm looks like owning guns legitimately also leads to firearms homicides, we should ban all guns

hilarious to use the phrase �first world� in 2018 when kids born after the soviet union died are old enough to own your favorite thing: guns. anyways, gee it�s almost like the situations aren�t comparable because the rest of the world doesn�t have as many guns as we do, by a lot

it�s also almost like we can do multiple things that are good for society, like both increasing mental health support and also limiting access to firearms

it�s also almost like for the us specifically, not trying to confuse the data by adding more countries in a deliberate effort to obfuscate the situation because toys, reduction to firearm access would lead to less suicides based on all the available data itt

it�s almost like your blasty toy isn�t worth it

Shutting down the internet would also lead to less suicides, and would have less legal hurdles in its way. Should we jump on that too? How many lives is your clicky toy worth?

Edit : To be fair, most of those are social-media related, so we could settle for just killing facebook, twitter, tumblr, youtube, and their ilk. Return the net to the ARPANET days.

Liquid Communism fucked around with this message at 01:27 on Mar 11, 2018

# ? Mar 11, 2018 01:24

Unoriginal Name: Aug 1, 2006; by sebmojo

patonthebach posted:

Do you think he got shot?

Some serious corn cobbing going on in this thread now. Guess you feel I actually won a point

hahaha i lost track of which person got murdered by armed peace officers, haha this is totally normal

# ? Mar 11, 2018 01:26

BENGHAZI 2: Oct 13, 2007; by Cyrano4747

Liquid Communism posted:

Shutting down the internet would also lead to less suicides, and would have less legal hurdles in its way. Should we jump on that too? How many lives is your clicky toy worth?

Ah yes the internet, known for being used solely for inflicting massive physical damage

# ? Mar 11, 2018 01:27

stone cold: Feb 15, 2014

Liquid Communism posted:

Shutting down the internet would also lead to less suicides, and would have less legal hurdles in its way. Should we jump on that too? How many lives is your clicky toy worth?

my favorite cdc statistic is deaths caused by internet injuries

# ? Mar 11, 2018 01:27

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# ? Jun 11, 2024 08:13

Flowers For Algeria: Dec 3, 2005; I humbly offer my services as forum inquisitor. There is absolutely no way I would abuse this power in any way.

Liquid Communism posted:

Shutting down the internet would also lead to less suicides, and would have less legal hurdles in its way. Should we jump on that too? How many lives is your clicky toy worth?

you're absolutely insane, shutting down the internet would lead to the immediate suicide of 120+ millions americans

# ? Mar 11, 2018 01:27

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