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kirbysuperstar posted:Is there any significance to the logo/insignia on the Zakrello's..uh..shoulder? Presumably a reference to World War II nose art.
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Mar 15, 2018 00:28
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It appears Newtypes are a real thing, kind of.
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Mar 15, 2018 02:57
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Midjack posted:It appears Newtypes are a real thing, kind of. In the future, should the emergence of a new human race associated with oxygen-deprivation stress, increased inflammation and dramatic nutrient shifts be confirmed, the Earth Federation shall give priority to involving them in the administration of the government.
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Mar 15, 2018 03:40
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chiasaur11 posted:It's a deeply weird fact of UC history that Zeon produces total lunatics who drop colonies on everyone at the same time as they have a generally functional, responsive civilian government. The Federation are just as weird in their own way: they're run by selfish assholes who regularly act in their own self interest and are corrupt but they also oversee a really socially conscious government and built colonies filled with free amenities for all that are mostly kept to a high standard of cleanliness by the looks of things. Yinlock posted:"we'll give you this big meteor if you pinky swear not to drop it on us also" https://webmshare.com/ZjAJJ People always seem to forget that Adaneur Paraya tells Bright that Char threatened the colonies to ensure they did what he wanted. Bright is convinced that Char would never harm them, but he knows Char a lot more personally than any of the Federation heads do and I honestly don't blame them for not trusting the fate of the colonies on his word. I'd even think it was irresponsible of them to trust Bright on the matter really. Also, in relation to the above point Adaneur also says that the funds from Axis' sale will be used for welfare schemes; more proof that the Federation government is weirdly altruistic despite their apparent selfishness. Arcsquad12 posted:In just about every instance post OYW that the Federation has taken on Zeon directly they've come out on top. It's a wonder they didn't just send the three dozen Gundam prototypes they'd probably had in storage to go wipe out Sweetwater when they had the chance. https://webmshare.com/DdEWb Bright and Amuro talk early in Char's Counterattack about how they had inspection teams scouring the colonies to find Char or presumably any armies but they couldn't find him before he publicly popped up in Sweetwater with his new army because the people of the colonies covered for him due to resentment for the Federation. They didn't know Char was based out of Sweetwater so they couldn't just take him out, and when he did pop up the Federation were afraid to act against him in case he destroyed colonies and because the public supported him and they were afraid of the public turning against them if they acted too brashly. Shinjobi posted:It's kinda funny when you consider CCA; even if she failed, Haman still didn't leave Char with anything he could really use. I think she'd be pretty satisfied with that. I don't think Char would have wanted anything she could leave behind anyway. Even her troops would be made up of people who presumably had different ideals and a different agenda to him and their equipment would all be several years out of date. Midjack posted:It appears Newtypes are a real thing, kind of. There's also the Overview Effect experienced by astronauts who watch the world spin beneath them for months on end and realize all borders and divisions are artificial. Which is honestly a closer analogue in my opinion. tsob fucked around with this message at 04:29 on Mar 15, 2018 |
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Mar 15, 2018 04:01
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tsob posted:The Federation are just as weird in their own way: they're run by selfish assholes who regularly act in their own self interest and are corrupt but they also oversee a really socially conscious government and built colonies filled with free amenities for all that are mostly kept to a high standard of cleanliness by the looks of things. I always found that incredibly strange. The colonies are supposed to terrible and oppressive, like space penal colonies or space slums. But they look nothing like actual slums or penal colonies.
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Mar 15, 2018 04:22
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golden bubble posted:I always found that incredibly strange. The colonies are supposed to terrible and oppressive, like space penal colonies or space slums. But they look nothing like actual slums or penal colonies. It's almost like zeon are liars and the bad guys.
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Mar 15, 2018 04:23
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Shangri-La had a really lovely part filled with scrap and you had to buy your own air and Palau was pretty bad. Zeon are full of poo poo and it also turns out that people are really easy to trick when it comes to the "any and all problems you have are because of THOSE guys" thing.
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Mar 15, 2018 04:42
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Darth Walrus posted:Presumably a reference to World War II nose art. I figured, just didn't know if it was related to any particular character or anything.
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Mar 15, 2018 05:12
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EthanSteele posted:Shangri-La had a really lovely part filled with scrap and you had to buy your own air and Palau was pretty bad. Zeon are full of poo poo and it also turns out that people are really easy to trick when it comes to the "any and all problems you have are because of THOSE guys" thing. Sweetwater was pretty decrepit and poor too, but both Palau and Sweetwater had rich governors who lived in palatial conditions despite the horrid conditions of most of the residents. They seem to be exception rather than the rule though, and most colonies seem rather suburban and well maintained, even following the biggest war in history. The cities on Earth seem comparatively poor despite the common perception of Earth being for the elite too.
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Mar 15, 2018 05:17
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Earth is for the elites except for all the bits that are for the people that are too poor to afford to go to space.
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Mar 15, 2018 06:18
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Kanos posted:If you mean the colony known as the Republic of Zeon, no. Axis was lousy with highly ranked political and military officers from the Principality of Zeon, though, and was much more politically and militarily significant than one colony. You could probably call them the "real" Zeon. I'm reminded of a passage in Night Watch about how the revolution obviously made a mistake in the sections of the city it took. None of the seats of government, main temples, opera houses, or anything of that nature. Instead, they just took all the butchers, bakers, garbage collectors, and the like. So, sadly, their spiritual and cultural needs would go unfulfilled as they enjoyed full stomachs and clean streets. Zeon's got kind of the same deal. The Republic keeps continuity of government, the overwhelming majority of the population, the supplies to ensure comfortable living, the works. Meanwhile, Axis got the mobile suits, superweapons and assholes who wanted to drop colonies on everyone. You're saying 30,000 murderous psychopaths are a more legitimate successor state than a nation of over a billion people because they... managed to go on a couple atrocity sprees before utterly self destructing. That seems pretty questionable in my book. (For scale, assuming Zeon had a 10% conscription rate, and going with, oh, let's be aggressive and assume 80 percent fatalities, and assuming every single Axis citizen was a veteran as opposed to including families, you have 25,970,000 veterans back home on side 3. Less than a quarter of one percent of their military.) chiasaur11 fucked around with this message at 07:52 on Mar 15, 2018 |
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Mar 15, 2018 07:42
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from watching the origin, the colonies seem like pretty ok places to live until you start showing any amount of discontent, at which point the federation will loving open fire on your civilian gatherings
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Mar 15, 2018 08:24
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ninjewtsu posted:from watching the origin, the colonies seem like pretty ok places to live until you start showing any amount of discontent, at which point the federation will loving open fire on your civilian gatherings They're run like colonies, yeah. The Federation strip-mines the surrounding natural resources, violently silences opposition, and denies the locals any representation. This is after force-relocating most of them to space to make the Earth prettier for the rich, so the people in the colonies understandably feel some resentment towards the Federation. Deikun's trick was to create a philosophy that justified living in space (by claiming that it was the right thing to do for ecological reasons, that the next stage of human evolution would come from spacenoids, and that the space colonies should be independent nations). Spacenoids latched on to this as an identity of their own to have against the Federation, and then the Zabis turned that into fascism. The irony was always that after complaining the colonial authorities being rich and lording it over the colonists, the people of Zeon latched on to... European-style nobility as the solution???  Also, that the majority of colony clusters stayed on the Federation's side in the OYW (presumably these were the middle-class colonies). Zeon only happened in the ones that were poor. tsob posted:but they also oversee a really socially conscious government and built colonies filled with free amenities for all that are mostly kept to a high standard of cleanliness by the looks of things. lol Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Mar 15, 2018 |
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Mar 15, 2018 09:59
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chiasaur11 posted:I'm reminded of a passage in Night Watch about how the revolution obviously made a mistake in the sections of the city it took. None of the seats of government, main temples, opera houses, or anything of that nature. The thing is, the post-OYW Republic of Zeon isn't the same Republic of Zeon that existed pre-OYW. To  this poo poo up, they're effectively Vichy France - a puppet state created by conquerors to administer and control a defeated populace - and absolutely no one would consider Vichy France to be the true French government despite it encompassing the vast majority of the French landmass and populace. The post-OYW Republic of Zeon is a government that exists entirely on the sufferance of the Federation and they are literally given an expiration date at which point their independence is revoked forever. That's not really "continuity of government" in any meaningful sense, especially since most of their powerful military or governmental figures either died in the OYW or fled with Axis. That's regime change.The surviving noble class and powerful military figures who made up the Principality's military-centered government either fled to Axis or ended up in splinter fleets like Delaz. For better or for worse, the majority of Zeon's surviving governmental power structure are those crazies who are dropping colonies and murdering people by the thousands in atrocity after atrocity until they're all finally killed.
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Mar 15, 2018 10:11
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Kanos posted:The thing is, the post-OYW Republic of Zeon isn't the same Republic of Zeon that existed pre-OYW. To You even read "The Plot to Assassinate Gihren"? Zeon was, on paper, ruled by two co-equal branches of government. The Zabi family, and the parliment, chaired by Prime Minister Darcia Bakharov. Although in practice, Gihren held all power through his manipulation of all concerned (and occasional brute force when that didn't suffice), and in practice he empowered his flunkies to do whatever hosed up poo poo their hearts desired, the Parliment was legally empowered to oppose him, and considerably more powerful than, say, the Karn family. De jure authority, as opposed to the de facto power that Axis derived from Gihren. After the chain of betrayals that Gihren kicked off at ABQ, the Zabi half of the equation was all but annihilated. However, the senate was intact, allowing them to assume the control of the government that they had always, in theory, possessed. Bakharov then, in his position as the highest ranking official in the Zeonic government, negotiated a ceasefire that would allow Zeon to maintain its political autonomy while satisfying the Federation that there would be no further... incidents. At least, not caused by them. You're arguing a freely elected government that maintained continuity throughout the Zabi regime and beyond (Bakharov rose up with Degwin, and continued to be prime minister through UC 100) is less legitimate than the jumped up daughter of a disgraced admiral playing war. I don't think I need to point out the flaws in this line of reasoning. (Idle thought. By UC 88 or so, the majority of surviving one year war pilots are probably Zeon veterans. Federation got hit with purge after purge. Meanwhile, the Republic just kind of sat on its hands going "Uh... go... titans? We're supposed to pretend we like the Titans so they don't... oh. It's Neo Zeon now. Whatever. Just leave us the gently caress alone and have fun, you genocidal whackjobs.")
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Mar 15, 2018 11:51
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IIRC, the main character in Crossbone Gundam Ghost is from Side 3 and is not particularly Zeon-nostalgic.
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Mar 15, 2018 12:46
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chiasaur11 posted:You even read "The Plot to Assassinate Gihren"? I'm arguing that the "Zeon" that literally everyone refers to when they use the term "Zeon" is intimately and inseparably tied to the ideals of the Zabi family's principality and the successors to that ideology. That is the Zeon that changed the entire world(for the worse), that is the Zeon that the population of Sweetwater was serving when they joined Char and allowed him to use their colony as a base of operations for his fleet in CCA, and that is the Zeon that is spoken of in whispered reverence by the downtrodden colonists in Palau in Unicorn. When people talk about "Americans", they're talking about citizens of the United States of America, despite the United States being a country with less than three centuries of history living on land that was occupied thousands of years before the country came into being. When people see a Swastika, they associate it with Nazi Germany despite it having had its own meaning for most of recorded human history. When somebody refers to Zeon, they're almost invariably referring to the genocidal psychopath government that killed half of humanity and its various dumbass successors. gently caress, if I lived in the Republic of Zeon I wouldn't loving WANT my colony to be named Zeon because some terms are way too difficult to reclaim from the horrible associations that are tied to them. I would want my home to be named something entirely different to prove that I have absolutely no loving association with those lunatic monsters instead of entering a tug of war about who the "true" Zeon is. The Origin neatly sidesteps this entire issue by the colony itself being named Munzo, which gives the colony government a discrete identity from the Zabist regime. Kanos fucked around with this message at 12:58 on Mar 15, 2018 |
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Mar 15, 2018 12:56
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I'm half assuming you're going to reference The Origin here, which is deliberately written to be an alternate take on UC; even if Sunrise may decide it's take on the backstory is the new canon at some point in the future. The one time the Federation really did anything like violently suppress dissent was Side 30, and it disgusted Federation troops so much they revolted and formed a new faction specifically to combat that violence. Other than that, the Federation mostly seems to view any opposition from the Colonies with apathy. Zeon were allowed to secede with the only opposition being cutting off trade to a place that is self sufficient by design, Riah became a formely recognized government they were terrified of crossing in 0079 though secretly allied with in 0080, they negotiated with Sweetwater instead of using violence to suppress them during Char's Counterattack (even if they had other reasons), the Crossbone Vanguard was allowed to secede and was only opposed with force when they used violence themselves and so on. The Federation are very apathetic about Spacenoids as a general rule, rather than violent oppressors and after each war they rebuild or restructure, continuing to maintain mostly clean and rather pastoral colonies even as Earth cities became rather slumy. Even in Char's Counterattack part of the reason they sell Axis is to fund welfare policies, which almost certainly includes helping the Colonies. chiasaur11 posted:You even read "The Plot to Assassinate Gihren"? Putting aside that any manga is questionably canon, the idea that the Republic of Zeon was a legitimate government make no sense when viewed alongside Gundam Unicorn given that Full Frontal's entire plan is to use the box to blackmail the Federation in to delaying the scheduled disollution of the Republic in UC 0100 since he needs more time to form his Co-Prosperity Sphere. If the government can be dissolved by an outside group then it's not in real control in the first place. Kanos posted:The Origin neatly sidesteps this entire issue by the colony itself being named Munzo, which gives the colony government a discrete identity from the Zabist regime. The idea of the various Sides and individual colonies having separate names predates The Origin, since Side 6 had Libot and was called Riah. I'm not sure if the name Munzo predates The Origin, but I'm half thinking it does and that Zeon Zum Deikun simply renamed it Zeon when he took control. He certainly mentions starting to call it Zeon to honor Zeon Zum Deikun after taking power in 0079, though the previous name isn't mentioned at the time.
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Mar 15, 2018 13:40
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tsob posted:Putting aside that any manga is questionably canon, the idea that the Republic of Zeon was a legitimate government make no sense when viewed alongside Gundam Unicorn given that Full Frontal's entire plan is to use the box to blackmail the Federation in to delaying the scheduled disollution of the Republic in UC 0100 since he needs more time to form his Co-Prosperity Sphere. If the government can be dissolved by an outside group then it's not in real control in the first place. It's extremely important to emphasize this. The post-war Republic of Zeon was specifically allowed to continue existing by the Federation temporarily and told that they had a time limit on being allowed to be an autonomous government, expiring in UC100. That's not a sovereign power with true political influence, that's a protectorate government at best and a puppet state at worst.
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Mar 15, 2018 14:21
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tsob posted:I'm half assuming you're going to reference The Origin here No, I'm laughing at you for thinking that having clean streets and not letting their population openly starve to death makes the Federation good guys.
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Mar 15, 2018 14:26
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Lemon-Lime posted:No, I'm laughing at you for thinking that having clean streets and not letting their population openly starve to death makes the Federation good guys. Why are you laughing at something I never said? All I ever said was that they had some oddly altruistic policies given how selfish they are and that that contrasted with Zeon's own odd political tendencies. I never said those things made them unequivocally good.
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Mar 15, 2018 14:33
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It's been over 15 years since I watching wing. I'm watching episode 15 now and I really forgot about how insane the show could get. Also Trowa somehow sneaking around with a giant mobile suit on his truck and setting it up in the middle of an oz base, in a circus tent, without anyone noticing until the last second. How did no one catch on to that? Also forgot how much of a prick wufei is. "Hey you guys are too weak to fight you losers, now let me get in my insanely overpowered mobile suit and wipe the floor with these guys." Duo still owns as much as I remember though. I have a lot more appreciation for Relena's giant brass balls than I did as a kid. Tallgeese being such a beast that it literally gives its pilots heart attacks is the best. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Mar 15, 2018 |
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Mar 15, 2018 16:19
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Wufei is not as bad as people say he is. He is way way worse.
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Mar 15, 2018 16:32
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The misogynistic bent of Wufei is pretty strange too, especially remembering his backstory from that Episode Zero manga.
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Mar 15, 2018 16:41
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I cant say all of Wing "makes sense" but drat if it aint a fun ride.
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Mar 15, 2018 20:43
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Lemon-Lime posted:No, I'm laughing at you for thinking that having clean streets and not letting their population openly starve to death makes the Federation good guys. Having clean streets everywhere is actually a problem. If they made it clear that this is the Gundam equivalent of the Shanghai International Settlement, that's fine. But that level of public services does not appear in colonial oppression. Fascist oppression could do it, but colonialist oppression is too busy looting all the non-elite areas to prevent the population from openly starving to death. Because historically, colonialism is contains some of greatest famines in world history. Federation does not have to be good guys, but they do not visually look like colonial oppressors. Gjallarhorn has the visual imagery of colonial oppressors. The Federation gets something more like slacker fascism.
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Mar 15, 2018 20:48
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Raxivace posted:The misogynistic bent of Wufei is pretty strange too, especially remembering his backstory from that Episode Zero manga. the backstory was thought up after wing, wasn't it? so if anything that's the strange part
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Mar 15, 2018 20:51
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Manatee Cannon posted:the backstory was thought up after wing, wasn't it? so if anything that's the strange part I remember reading it was originally supposed to be in wing but was cut, which is why there's 2 recap eps in a row halfway through the show. Not sure about the source though so it could be untrue.
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Mar 15, 2018 22:04
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Droyer posted:I remember reading it was originally supposed to be in wing but was cut, which is why there's 2 recap eps in a row halfway through the show. Not sure about the source though so it could be untrue. Those two episodes are super poorly placed when you watch it straight through without a broadcast break. The only thing worthwhile in them is the slight Epyon reveal at the end of 27 but then we don't even get a hint of it for another 4-6 episodes. Skip em straight up during your rewatch y'all. Even for recaps they're p bad compared to a lot of other series that have used that.
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Mar 15, 2018 23:09
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golden bubble posted:Having clean streets everywhere is actually a problem. If they made it clear that this is the Gundam equivalent of the Shanghai International Settlement, that's fine. But that level of public services does not appear in colonial oppression. Fascist oppression could do it, but colonialist oppression is too busy looting all the non-elite areas to prevent the population from openly starving to death. Because historically, colonialism is contains some of greatest famines in world history. Federation does not have to be good guys, but they do not visually look like colonial oppressors. Gjallarhorn has the visual imagery of colonial oppressors. The Federation gets something more like slacker fascism. I'd say "clean streets and not letting people openly starve to death" is also severely under-estimating what they did. The Federation was faced with overwhelming population growth and rather than let the common man live like cockroaches in crowded slums or compete with each other for diminishing resources they embarked on the single greatest feat of engineering and public works in history. Not even the single biggest by a little either; it's the biggest by a factor of tens. They conservatively built dozens of literal cities in space, including all the land those cities sit on and did so within a couple of decades. Even if you want to estimate there to be only half a dozen colony cylinders per side to 6 sides (the seventh was new in 0079, with only one colony) that's still 36 actual cities; and I'm pretty sure O'Neill's brief called for something on the order of 30 colonies per side, not 6. Then they filled each of those cities with lots of green spaces, flowing water etc. to make them picturesque and rather idyllic living spaces rather than just drab or practical but uninspiring habitations. And then included at the very least free transportation as a matter of course around the individual colonies. With that last part being kind of important, since it means that they didn't just build the colonies and then shove people in there to forget about them or profit off their backs in every little way. Making automotive transport free is a fairly benevolent act, since lots of people cripple themselves trying to afford that particular freedom themselves. The Federation were absolutely selfish and corrupt jerks who at least occasionally abused their power and ignored the struggles of others to look after their own interest; but they weren't uniformly that and they did actually do some really good things as well as some really heinous things. The major problem the colonies have with them is taxation without representation, which is a lovely thing to do but (a) it's a far cry from "not letting their citizens openly starve to death" and (b) there are democracies in the world that do that and aren't even seen as that despicable right now. Washington DC is the capital of America and it doesn't have proper representation. A problem shared by several American territories. It's also not like the average terran citizen appeared to be any better off, and the Federation is implied to treat the people of Earth just as bad as the people of the colonies. I wouldn't even say they were lazy fascists, since I don't really see anything fascist or dictatorial about them; I'd say they were lazy oligarchs.
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Mar 15, 2018 23:34
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I think SEED's recaps are bar none the worst; don't we get two recaps after 10 eps or something like that?
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Mar 15, 2018 23:41
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Midjack posted:I think SEED's recaps are bar none the worst; don't we get two recaps after 10 eps or something like that? There's one recap in episode 14 in the original series. There's another one or two or something after that. There's like 4 recap episodes in destiny, it's bonkers. You can definitely see that there was something going on with the production of these shows.
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Mar 15, 2018 23:53
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A d the lack of representation, as dumb as the explanation was, was the result of a terrorist act enacted within the federation government by interested parties, rather than a total "we're so evil" ploy by the entire government. Personally I find the transition from 50 episode shows to traditional 20-24 episode seasons a welcome change.
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Mar 15, 2018 23:55
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Monaghan posted:There's one recap in episode 14 in the original series. There's another one or two or something after that. I did SEED and Destiny in one long run so I must have confused them.
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Mar 16, 2018 00:18
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Arcsquad12 posted:A d the lack of representation, as dumb as the explanation was, was the result of a terrorist act enacted within the federation government by interested parties, rather than a total "we're so evil" ploy by the entire government. What terrorist act resulted in the colonies no longer having representation? Because I think you're on about Gundam Unicorn, but that's not what actually happened. The original UC charter doesn't give colonists representation, it gives Newtypes representation. And it only gives it to them if and when they appear, not from the inception of the Federation. More than that I suppose, I don't even think the idea that the Federation was ruling the colonies without equal representation in government even came in to UC until Char's Counterattack. There's definitely no mention of it 0079 at least, and I'm pretty sure it's not in Zeta or ZZ either.
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Mar 16, 2018 00:29
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Finally, somebody made the Sazabi cool
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Mar 16, 2018 03:04
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Where do I get the MG
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Mar 16, 2018 03:09
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It's from Moon Gundam and I've seen nothing about kits for it yet.
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Mar 16, 2018 03:17
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https://twitter.com/suzunami_natsu/status/974336026335326208
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Mar 16, 2018 03:20
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It's a shame they would never get an English dub for Gundam Versus, because I would never change from a dub Rau navigator.
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Mar 16, 2018 05:43
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