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Sir Kodiak posted:Wasn't a bunch of the dialog being penned by Shane Black, uncredited? Was it? I was reading that a lot of Iron Man 2 was also improv'd. This is all fascinating to me.
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Mar 27, 2018 17:59
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Was it? I was reading that a lot of Iron Man 2 was also improv'd. This is all fascinating to me. It's basically the Judd Apatow school of filmmaking (with more aggressive editors).
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Mar 27, 2018 18:00
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Timby posted:. I'll still go to bat for most of The Wolverine, too. Why? The movie is a really bad white savior film, where he has sex with a woman just because they needed to stretch the run time. And wolverine calls a villain a "mutant bitch." That's not even touching the whole silver samurai nonsense.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:01
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Was it? I was reading that a lot of Iron Man 2 was also improv'd. This is all fascinating to me. RDJ consulted Black quite a bit regarding dialogue and finding the Stark character when pre-production was happening on the first movie. Cheadle said that he and Rockwell were basically winging it during Iron Man 2.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:02
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Man I can't get over that. Rockwell has some amazing lines in Iron Man 2. Pretty much everything he says is gold.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:04
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its too bad iron man 2 is a lovely movie because rockwell is great in it and i also enjoyed rourke just being a complete weirdo doing whatever he wanted i saw iron man 2 on tv at a bar not long ago and it was a standard-def fullscreen version that was sped up by like 1.5x speed to make room for more commercials and it was just loving unpleasant and disconcerting to watch
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Mar 27, 2018 18:07
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I was meh on Iron Man 2 til I learned about the improv thing. Now it's suddenly extremely impressive
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Mar 27, 2018 18:10
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Timby posted:They had a script (it got Marcum and Holloway the job of writing Punisher War Zone), but it was an extremely rough draft that no one was genuinely happy with and was missing a lot of character beats. Favreau's background, going back to Swingers, was in improvisation, so he let RDJ and Bridges wing it if they felt they could do something better. I'll give this to Marvel, the first Ironman was a really ballsy move. They were strapped for cash and funded the movie with a loan using the film rights to the remainder of their catalogue as the collateral. It was a complete make or break movie and they trusted people to make it based almost entirely on their passion to do good by the material.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:11
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Serf posted:its too bad iron man 2 is a lovely movie because rockwell is great in it and i also enjoyed rourke just being a complete weirdo doing whatever he wanted Iron Man 2 is one of those movies where it feels like all the unpleasantness and behind-the-scenes drama that happened in pre-production is actually evident in the finished product. It's very joyless.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:21
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Timby posted:They had a script (it got Marcum and Holloway the job of writing Punisher War Zone), but it was an extremely rough draft that no one was genuinely happy with and was missing a lot of character beats. Favreau's background, going back to Swingers, was in improvisation, so he let RDJ and Bridges wing it if they felt they could do something better. Yeah I mean at the very least you would need a script just for basic story beats and to figure out where the hell you were filming any given day. You couldn't just have RDJ improv "okay now Stark sees something on TV that makes him want to fly to the middle east and fight terrorists" and decide on the spot to film that. But yeah I have no doubt that a lot of the dialogue was heavily improv'ed, and might have even helped to change the actual story (particularly individual character arcs). Hell, I can see the final revelation from Stark that he is Iron Man being improv'ed by Downey.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:25
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SolidSnakesBandana posted:Man I can't get over that. Rockwell has some amazing lines in Iron Man 2. Pretty much everything he says is gold. That's because Rockwell is amazing.
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Mar 27, 2018 18:46
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thrawn527 posted:That's because Rockwell is amazing. Rockwell is a national treasure, for sure. I'm surprised Hammer hasn't showed up in any other films yet hamming it up
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Mar 27, 2018 19:02
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Can we talk about iron Man 2 for a second? Why is it considered bad? As noted above, all the principle actors do their job. It gives you everything you expect from an iron Man movie and pushes the character arc forward.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:09
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bushisms.txt posted:Can we talk about iron Man 2 for a second? Why is it considered bad? As noted above, all the principle actors do their job. It gives you everyone you expect from an iron Man movie and pushes the character arc forward.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:11
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bushisms.txt posted:Can we talk about iron Man 2 for a second? Why is it considered bad? As noted above, all the principle actors do their job. It gives you everything you expect from an iron Man movie and pushes the character arc forward. It lacks a good pace and the Tony story gets muddled with The Avengers story. They didn’t know how to balance it then. It’s why Iron Man 3 works so much better. You got a touch of that Avengers flavor but keeping the focus a hundred percent on Tony.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:13
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It was also clearly working towards a "Howard Stark was not a good person, Vanko had a good point" ending, before pulling the plug and saying, "Just kidding, Howard Stark was awesome, left behind hints that lead Tony to creating an element, which is also exactly what he needs". Also, people were annoyed at all of the Avengers stuff they were putting in there, but lol little did we know what was coming.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:14
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bushisms.txt posted:Can we talk about iron Man 2 for a second? Why is it considered bad? As noted above, all the principle actors do their job. It gives you everything you expect from an iron Man movie and pushes the character arc forward. The character arc of Iron Man 2 is "maybe Tony Stark's father was...bad?? lol no jkjk this squirrely Russian dude was instead" You could sort've see what they were going for in a general way with a "sins of the father" type thing coupled with the paladium poisoning but then SHIELD shows up halfway through to lock Tony in a room so he can cure himself through a tech montage while not really learning anything. The Avengers initiative stuff felt forced, the plot was pretty muddled, the way the main villain reveals his weak spot (his face) so they can defeat him is cheesy, etc. It had potential but it was obviously greatly compromised and you could see the studio meddling right there on the screen. It was sort've a proto-BvS but without the imagery and action BvS at least brought to the table, so it has to mostly rely on RDJ's and Rockwell's sheer charisma, which sort've works except for anytime they are not on screen.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:20
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Iron Man II is a walking-talking identity crisis. There's a really good self-contained film just under the surface, but Marvel was more interested in setting up its connected universe than serving the narrative of the film itself. Convoluted SHIELD narrative aside, forcing Howard Stark to be a good guy all along was the death knell of that particular film, which kneecapped any arc that Vanko could have had or any lesson that Tony could have learned. That being said, it ended up being incredibly prescient for the Marvel universe at large. The subsequent films almost universally suffer from the same problems as Iron Man II and have the same strengths. I'm surprised it hasn't undergone a reevaluation in light of the fact that it fits in quite neatly with the 2018 state of these films: highly enjoyable, lots of great moments, very character-based, but a goddamn narrative mess. The only thing difference between Iron Man II and Spider-Man: Homecoming is that Homecoming had more time in the script phase to work out its kinks.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:22
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Iron Man 2 is pretty lackluster as an action movie too, despite the action being choreographed by Genndy Tartakovsky. Like the Monoco scene with Whiplash is presented as this big serpiece, but once Tony gets in the suit the fight lasts less than five minutes.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:26
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I'm less of a Marvel detractor than most here, but Iron Man 2 really goes nowhere. It does all this stuff to set up Howard Stark as a fucker and then just drops it, all the Avengers/SHIELD stuff is super dull and stops everything dead in its tracks, the action is pretty bad, and in general the pacing just drags. It has individual fun bits, but they aren't put together well enough to make a fun movie.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:26
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Honestly if you get rid of the poison metal part and don't have the nation villain show up to get killed in one blast within 30 seconds you could unprove the film a lot. The scene with the drones attacking the crowd actually gave my wife a mild panic attack.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:28
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feedmyleg posted:Iron Man II is a walking-talking identity crisis. There's a really good self-contained film just under the surface, but Marvel was more interested in setting up its connected universe than serving the narrative of the film itself. Convoluted SHIELD narrative aside, forcing Howard Stark to be a good guy all along was the death knell of that particular film, which kneecapped any arc that Vanko could have had or any lesson that Tony could have learned. Having just rewatched IM2, I have to disagree; it's considerably more of a narrative mess than any other MCU film I've seen. It's not clear at all what the central conflict or narrative thrust of the film is supposed to be until past the halfway mark, and the obvious script-less improvisation comes off less as admirable loose-limbedness (Rockwell being the main exception) and more like the actors just wandered onto the set while being told to stay in character.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:32
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feedmyleg posted:
This is what I'm getting at. Nothing has changed in the mcu, and cgi arguably got worse. Black panther shares so much of the same dna, side bad guy(sermis/klaue) character introduces mirrored character to hero, sins of the father, continues father legacy (killmonger death), and it's hailed as the best of the bunch. Drunk rear end in a top hat Tony was at least something, and Rdj tried to explore that arc to it's end in Iron Man 3. I would say black panther was hurt worse through movie tie ins with the super rushed need to have them open up to America after an American cia operative tries to "usurp" the king. You would think that, plus death of old king by outside forces would equal a different response.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:32
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It's almost certainly been posted in here before (I'm almost sure this is where I initially saw it) but this is a pretty cool essay on what IM2 was probably about before Marvel made them rewrite the script to insert SHIELD and take out any ambiguity for the "good guys": https://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/19/iron-man-2-wagner-fisher-king/
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Mar 27, 2018 19:34
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Don't forget that getting Iron Man 2 made was a nightmare. Favreau initially walked from the project because they lowballed him on pay (like Terrence Howard, he was offered less than he got on the first Iron Man), the Avengers worldbuilding stuff was put in over his strenuous objections, he was shut out from the creative process by Justin Theroux, Samuel L. Jackson initially refused to return because Marvel's nine-movie deal paid him peanuts, the movie was rushed into production, the shoot was hell ... like I said, it's a movie where all of the poo poo that went on behind the scenes is patently obvious on the screen. Narratively it's a mess and it just doesn't make much sense. Tony and Rhodes crash the party and they fight, Rhodes steals the suit and gets it tricked out by Hammer, but then they're buddies again when the third act rolls around? 
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Mar 27, 2018 19:41
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the best part of any of the x-men movies was when juggernaut said "i'm the juggernaut, bitch!!" just like in the thing remember that? when he said the thing?
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Mar 27, 2018 19:58
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Yeah it was embarrassing.
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Mar 27, 2018 19:59
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Barry Convex posted:Having just rewatched IM2, I have to disagree; it's considerably more of a narrative mess than any other MCU film I've seen. It's not clear at all what the central conflict or narrative thrust of the film is supposed to be until past the halfway mark, and the obvious script-less improvisation comes off less as admirable loose-limbedness (Rockwell being the main exception) and more like the actors just wandered onto the set while being told to stay in character. The main issues with Iron Man 2 are a) Vanko is obviously the hero and Tony is the villain and b) WHAT HAPPENED TO THE COCKATOO FRIEND.
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Mar 27, 2018 20:02
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bushisms.txt posted:Can we talk about iron Man 2 for a second? Why is it considered bad? As noted above, all the principle actors do their job. It gives you everything you expect from an iron Man movie and pushes the character arc forward. Iron Man 1 was good because Jeff Bridges played an exceptional villain. Rourke kinda sucked to be honest. Movies like this need a compelling bad guy to stick out in peoples minds.
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Mar 27, 2018 20:09
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Jeff Bridges built that performance in a cave.
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Mar 27, 2018 20:12
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My favorite weird thing to come out of Iron Man 2 is how “great” Howard Stark supposedly is. Dude definitely stole all the vibranium from Wakanda to make Cap’s shield, but Tony gets all high and mighty about how his great dad made it and Cap doesn’t deserve it at the end of civil war. Dude was shady as gently caress. gently caress the Starks.
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Mar 27, 2018 20:31
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Pops Mgee posted:My favorite weird thing to come out of Iron Man 2 is how “great” Howard Stark supposedly is. Dude definitely stole all the vibranium from Wakanda to make Cap’s shield, but Tony gets all high and mighty about how his great dad made it and Cap doesn’t deserve it at the end of civil war. Dude was shady as gently caress. gently caress the Starks. Eh, Cap 1 says the shield was made from all the known vibranium on earth. No reason to think Howard stole it from Wakanda, he just made it from the vibranium found in the rest of the world - all the vibranium found in the rest of the world. Howard and Tony are arrogant and willing to bend the rules to get what they want, but they're both genuinely well-intentioned people, not supervillains. Tony specifically notes in Ultron that he never made any deals with Klaw because of his reputation.
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Mar 27, 2018 20:35
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Cythereal posted:Eh, Cap 1 says the shield was made from all the known vibranium on earth. No reason to think Howard stole it from Wakanda, he just made it from the vibranium found in the rest of the world - all the vibranium found in the rest of the world. Howard and Tony are arrogant and willing to bend the rules to get what they want, but they're both genuinely well-intentioned people, not supervillains. I mean, Howard maybe.
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Mar 27, 2018 20:36
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CelticPredator posted:Yeah it was embarrassing. What was more embarrassing was that I saw The Last Stand in theaters with a couple of friends from college, both of whom were and are huge memelord types. When he said the line, the two of them were cackling like hyenas for several minutes. It was mortifying.
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Mar 27, 2018 20:41
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Mordiceius posted:At this point Dark Phoenix will be the 8th? film in this continuity. How many of those are good? I’d say three? X-Men, X2, X3: The Last Stand, Origins: Wolverine, First Class, The Wolverine, First Class, Days of Future Past, Apocalypse, Logan... if I didn't miss any, 10 movies?? poo poo, that's more than I thought. Although I don't consider Deadpool a part of all that since it's sort of off on it's own universe. Probably not a coincidence that Deadpool was the best X-Men movie by a longshot. Of all those... you have four good ones (X-Men, even if it didn't age well, X2, First Class and Logan), two okay ones (The Wolverine, DotP) and the rest are objectively very, very bad. Doronin fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Mar 27, 2018 |
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Mar 27, 2018 20:53
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Including Deadpool, there's been ten.
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Mar 27, 2018 21:06
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I need go back to the old X movies but my mind says they were all bad. Even the beloved X2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VagrTsi5vsw That is terrible.
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Mar 27, 2018 21:25
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Vintersorg posted:I need go back to the old X movies but my mind says they were all bad. Even the beloved X2. Naw X2 holds up. It's still one of the best superhero movies ever.
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Mar 27, 2018 21:33
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For me I always strongly disliked the Rogue character. She sucked in every movie. But X-Men was written by Solid Snake so it's at least got a good script. I've never liked the whole "I have superpowers... but I just want to be a normal boy/girl!" thing, in any media. edit: Just finished re-watching Iron Man 2. Rourke doesn't have a single good line in the entire movie. The only thing I can remember him saying is "I want my bird." They should have made Hammer the main villain. SolidSnakesBandana fucked around with this message at 21:38 on Mar 27, 2018 |
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Mar 27, 2018 21:35
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Cythereal posted:Eh, Cap 1 says the shield was made from all the known vibranium on earth. No reason to think Howard stole it from Wakanda, he just made it from the vibranium found in the rest of the world - all the vibranium found in the rest of the world. Howard and Tony are arrogant and willing to bend the rules to get what they want, but they're both genuinely well-intentioned people, not supervillains. The opening of Black Panther seems to imply that Vibranium doesn’t occur naturally on Earth and that all of it came from that meteor. Howard being shady and swiping it from Wakanda on his own wouldn’t surprise me in the slightest.
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Mar 27, 2018 21:47
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