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I would also add that the Israelis killed a dual citizen of the US/Turkey in that raid and only Turkey did anything in response. He was also a teenager.
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Apr 1, 2018 02:42
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Kim Jong Il posted:From Israel's perspective, what benefit do they get from violence? Israel's perspective is that it wants to steal the Palestinian homeland, something that is easier done when Palestinians are killed. But since they worry about optics, they can't just go full on with extermination camps -- so they content themselves with containing them in an ever-shrinking prison, and shooting them whenever they have a halfway plausible pretext. For example, kids playing with a ball on a beach look exactly like terrorists when you're far away enough, so they can safely be shelled from a warship. That's a little protip from the IDF. Kim Jong Il posted:If you want to be cynical about it, the best thing for them would be to just be the current stalemate and smothering all hope of rebellion, not active confrontation.
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Apr 1, 2018 02:42
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International law concerning unlawful/unofficial combatants is a huge gray area, in general. This is just true. Sorry? Soldiers: For instance, retreating soldiers can lawfully come under fire even within the protections and restrictions of the Geneva Conventions. The purpose of Retreat Under Fire is a lawful tactic to force the enemy to regroup farther than they would otherwise. Civilians: Generally dealing with civilians is a different matter but usually left up to the countries. For instance, if this were private property or any restricted government facility, no one would bat an eyelash at firing at them firing at civilian (criminal) intruders until they were out of range. Unlawful Combatants: But in the middle are unlawful combatants, who have barely any international law pertaining to them, never mind case law. I'm not a lawyer, either, but I am able to read and parse certain laws. If you can find anything pertaining to this specific situation, I stand ready to correct myself. But please stop calling this guy a civilian. By definition, when you attack a foreign entity (say by raiding their border, even with lovely weapons), you forfeit civilian status and civilian protections and become an Unlawful Combatant. And there is simply very little applicable law about unlawful combatants. Tacky-rear end Rococco posted:As others have said, Jesus Christ. The target isn't that far away, especially not for IDF snipers (who are highly trained and aren't too far off from world gold medalists). Several of those shots appear to be deliberate misses intended to scare the guy as he retreated (see firing under retreat above). Warning shots. The last shot I'm guessing was just a soldier showing off to knock the tire out of his hand. Since it doesn't look like they're even trying to kill these people, only give them a scare, yeah I'll treat it like it's harmless. The IDF had pretty good discipline on Friday and only seem to have killed people raiding the border. I know 10 of the people killed were Hamas militants engaged in combat, the other 4 I'll reserve judgment. Zulily Zoetrope posted:I'm no scholar of international law mm-hmm. quote:but I'm pretty sure there is no such thing as "non-lethal shooting" when wielding lethal firearms, let alone with regards to unarmed, fleeing civilians. The people apparently being shot at are not "unarmed civilians," no matter how many times you insist on calling them that. They sacrificed that status when they attacked the fence. When they meet up with the regular crowd, notice that no further shots are fired. Those people in the crowd had not attacked and did have civilian status. Hence, no shots were fired at them. You may not agree with everything the IDF does but you do have to acknowledge that it is a very disciplined fighting force and there are certain lines that they rarely to never cross. Internet Explorer posted:You are a disgusting human being. Sorry I'm showing insufficient sympathy for a death that didn't happen, I guess. And for the 10+ militant deaths that were actually cut-and-dry legal and justified, I also spare no tears. That's war. War is terrible. People die. When you initiate combat, when you wage war, when you attack, you bear at least partial (if not total) responsibility for the casualties on your side. This was an attack on Israel's border, plain and simple, with the cover of a few thousand protestors so they could fool people unwilling to look closer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgdxnFizHpE
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Apr 1, 2018 02:46
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Oh, hey, thanks for the high-key antisemitic avatar package. Hope it was worth the money.
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Apr 1, 2018 02:48
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It's cool you can't even stop jerking off to the IDF's marksmanship even as they shoot civilians, Steve.
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Apr 1, 2018 02:49
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it isn't antisemitic. You are racist. Sorry.
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Apr 1, 2018 02:50
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Marxist-Jezzinist posted:it isn't antisemitic. You are racist. Sorry. The payot are just for decoration, then? Do you want a cookie because you (or whoever) didn't go full Le Happy Merchant? Way to distance Anti-Zionism from its Nazi past. 
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Apr 1, 2018 02:57
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Nameless_Steve posted:International law concerning unlawful/unofficial combatants is a huge gray area, in general. This is just true. Sorry? Jesus loving christ what is wrong with you you loving psycho
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Apr 1, 2018 03:02
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Nameless_Steve posted:The payot are just for decoration, then? Do you want a cookie because you (or whoever) didn't go full Le Happy Merchant? I get the feeling literally anything from Jewish culture would have you screaming anti-semitism.
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Apr 1, 2018 03:03
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Look, Streicher, if you want to give me an avatar that signals "Jew", so that all near and far on the forums will know I'm a filthy untermensch and know which train to send me to, you should just quit pussyfooting around and give me a yellow star.
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Apr 1, 2018 03:06
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Nameless_Steve posted:Look, Streicher, if you want to give me an avatar that signals "Jew", so that all near and far on the forums will know I'm a filthy untermensch and know which train to send me to, you should just quit pussyfooting around and give me a yellow star. Wah! I just want to suck off the Israeli military, not be associated with them! You people are MEANIES! Waaaah! Haha, you are such a hypocrite. Calmly give us paragraphs defending murdering protesters, and now this? You're something special. A Terrible Person fucked around with this message at 03:15 on Apr 1, 2018 |
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Apr 1, 2018 03:12
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I'm not crying. I would be annoyed if you hadn't given me a Pesach miracle: You have thoroughly proven your Anti-Zionism actually, truly is Antisemitism. Plot twist! And I'm too fat and high to be associated with the IDF. I'd just look silly in one of those uniforms. "paragraphs defending murdering protestors" The people I've been talking about, in those two videos, are not dead. They're not dead. Even Hamas isn't claiming they're dead. They're not dead.
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Apr 1, 2018 03:24
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YodaTFK posted:Jesus loving christ what is wrong with you you loving psycho I was raised by a lawyer, does that count?
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Apr 1, 2018 03:28
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Nameless_Steve posted:I'm not crying. I would be annoyed if you hadn't given me a Pesach miracle: You have thoroughly proven your Anti-Zionism actually, truly is Antisemitism. Plot twist! Oh my god, grow up you loving infant. I didn't have a loving thing to do with the new text or image. I just find it hilarious when a sociopath cries about their insensitivity coming back to bite them in the rear end.
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Apr 1, 2018 03:30
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Nameless_Steve posted:The payot are just for decoration, then? Do you want a cookie because you (or whoever) didn't go full Le Happy Merchant? Payot? Those are straps from the construction hat Spidey avatar that someone photo-chopped a fedora over.  But keep grasping at straws you racist piece of poo poo. 
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Apr 1, 2018 03:34
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:
Well now I feel like a loving moron, too. S/he's still a racist sociopath, though.
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Apr 1, 2018 03:41
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Payot? Those are straps from the construction hat Spidey avatar that someone photo-chopped a fedora over. pffhahahahaha
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Apr 1, 2018 03:43
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it does kind of look like that to be fair
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Apr 1, 2018 03:46
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but now that thats out of the way: nameless steve you are a depraved lunatic
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Apr 1, 2018 03:46
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Nameless_Steve posted:But please stop calling this guy a civilian. By definition, when you attack a foreign entity (say by raiding their border, even with lovely weapons), you forfeit civilian status and civilian protections and become an Unlawful Combatant. There's obviously a zillion other things here, but one thing worth mentioning is that Israel loses any right to use this sort of excuse given the control it chooses to exercise over Palestinians. It is not the same as people from one country randomly being aggressive to another; the status quo itself is a state of perpetual Israeli aggression, and anything the Palestinians do should just be viewed as a response to that. edit: I feel the need to preemptively address the likely-inevitable "well you can also view Israeli actions as a response to Palestinian aggression" response. The main thing here is that there's a tremendous power differential, where Israel exercises almost complete control over the Palestinians, to the extend of controlling what resources they can receive, etc. Not to mention the fact that Israel has caused the Palestinians orders of magnitude more harm than vice versa. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 04:06 on Apr 1, 2018 |
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Apr 1, 2018 03:49
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That's idiotic. You know what it looks like and whoever dropped $10 knew it, too. If it quacks like an antisemitic duck and it walks like an antisemitic duck... A Terrible Person posted:Oh my god, grow up you loving infant. I didn't have a loving thing to do with the new text or image. I just find it hilarious when a sociopath cries about their insensitivity coming back to bite them in the rear end. I don't care who did it, whoever did it proved exactly what kind of antisemites you are. And that's glorious. Also, in no way did I ever say nor imply that Arabs are subhuman. My alleged "racism" is limited to my criticism of the PLO, Hamas, Fatah and other specific organizations and individuals. My "sociopathy" is because I know a little bit about law, enough to recite it dispassionately. Oh, and that one time I said it would be a better PR strategy for Palestinians to turn to self-immolations, rather than the same violent poo poo that hasn't worked out over the past 100 years.
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Apr 1, 2018 03:54
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gently caress off, sociopath. Better yet, re-read what Ytlaya posted and then get your racist rear end gone.
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Apr 1, 2018 03:58
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Ytlaya posted:There's obviously a zillion other things here, but one thing worth mentioning is that Israel loses any right to use this sort of excuse given the control it chooses to exercise over Palestinians. It is not the same as people from one country randomly being aggressive to another; the status quo itself is a state of perpetual Israeli aggression, and anything the Palestinians do should just be viewed as a response to that. Thank you for engaging in actual discussion like an adult. Consider the flip side: the view that the status quo itself is a state of perpetual Arab/Palestinian aggression and anything that Israel does should just be viewed as a response to that. It certainly works much better in this case than your theory. Palestinians assaulting Israel's borders because it's the anniversary of something that happened 40 something years ago, and Israel's only defending its borders. The relationship is much more causal and direct. Every time the Knesset has shifted rightward in its history was preceded by major Palestinian aggression. With the exception of the Suez Invasion, every war Israel has fought has been grounded in defensive reasoning responding to anti-Zionist aggression. Again, Anti-Zionism is an ideology founded and historically embodied by actual explicitly genocidal
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Apr 1, 2018 04:57
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Nameless_Steve posted:Thank you for engaging in actual discussion like an adult. 
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Apr 1, 2018 05:00
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Kim Jong Il posted:Hamas won the 2006 parliamentary elections, which had nothing to do with them taking over Gaza from Fatah by force 18 months later. Why, if I didn't know anything about Hamas' rise to power other than what you're telling me, I'd almost think that Hamas were the ones who launched a military coup to try to steal control of the Palestinian government from its democratically-elected leaders! Which is weird, since that's not at all what happened. Nameless_Steve posted:
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Apr 1, 2018 05:04
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Kim Jong Il posted:Nazi? What you said is incorrect, Hamas took power in Gaza by force. I did not "justify" anything - clearly the intent with the protests was for Hamas to have people killed to help their propaganda efforts. It's a sick tragedy. So, if a picture can be found of an Israeli civilian in an IDF uniform at some point in the past, one can say that their death was justified, then?
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Apr 1, 2018 05:25
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Kim Jong Il posted:Hamas won the 2006 parliamentary elections, which had nothing to do with them taking over Gaza from Fatah by force 18 months later.
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Apr 1, 2018 05:26
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it's good to hear that not only is asking Israel not to engage in ethnic cleansing antisemitic now, so is spiderman, and people who say shooting children in the back is bad
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Apr 1, 2018 05:43
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This psycho reminds me of the psychos who get off on the police murdering black people. He's even being "opressed". Racism is a loving nasty trait, people can be so awful. Nameless_Steve posted:you shouldn't earn sympathy just because you deliberately take knives to gunfights. Yeah that's what's happening there, a "fight". Harold Fjord fucked around with this message at 06:27 on Apr 1, 2018 |
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Apr 1, 2018 06:24
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That this turd talks about an "assault on Israel's borders" while settlers are actively stealing land to expand their own is the kicker.
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Apr 1, 2018 06:50
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Payot? Those are straps from the construction hat Spidey avatar that someone photo-chopped a fedora over. I'm just going to quote this again so Nameless_Steve has to stare at it in whatever passes for shame in their mind.
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Apr 1, 2018 07:18
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Payot? Those are straps from the construction hat Spidey avatar that someone photo-chopped a fedora over. lmao
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Apr 1, 2018 07:41
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Kim Jong Il posted:Nazi? What you said is incorrect, Hamas took power in Gaza by force. I did not "justify" anything - clearly the intent with the protests was for Hamas to have people killed to help their propaganda efforts. It's a sick tragedy. It's kind of magical that you're the second person ITT to say that Hamas forced the IDF to gun down civilians as if that somehow absolves them of any wrongdoing. You don't get a pass for being a violent psychopath just because the victim provoked you. Nameless_Steve posted:I can't prove a negative. There just isn't much international law pertaining to civilian/illegal/unofficial combatants. That very clearly is not what I was asking. Here, I'll try again: "Non-lethal shooting (using lethal, military-grade weaponry) is a thing acknowledged by international law" That's a positive statement you made, and one that is complete bullshit. Nameless_Steve posted:You may not agree with everything the IDF does but you do have to acknowledge that it is a very disciplined fighting force and there are certain lines that they rarely to never cross. No I don't, because they aren't. The IDF routinely opens fire on people who pose no threat to them whatsoever, and by your own admission, sometimes "just to gently caress with people." There is something seriously wrong with you if you think that that is not only okay, but is evidence of their discipline and evenhandedness. They've also been caught using human shields, doing straight up kneeling executions, and looting and making GBS threads all over any Palestinian house they pass through on raids.
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Apr 1, 2018 07:55
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Nameless_Steve posted:That's idiotic. You know what it looks like and whoever dropped $10 knew it, too. If it quacks like an antisemitic duck and it walks like an antisemitic duck... no, you're a sociopath because not only are you "well, actually"-ing shooting unarmed people in the back as they run away, you also make weird snide little jokes about shooting tires out of hands and Yosemite Sam you are such a genuinely awful person and it's so strange to me that you can't see it e: I mean, I assume you think you are a good, normal, kind and reasonable person because most people do, but I assure you, you arent
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Apr 1, 2018 08:54
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Hitlers Gay Secret posted:Payot? Those are straps from the construction hat Spidey avatar that someone photo-chopped a fedora over.  But if you squint...
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Apr 1, 2018 09:28
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i hope all the people who remain posting here in some weird effort to shift the discourse on israel in any way toward a favorable position get shot in the head with an incendiary round, preferably in front of their friends. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Apr 1, 2018 11:24
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This reminds me of a derail last week in the Peter Madsen murder sub thread. A guy kept insisting that enjoying seeing people tortured was natural. But only if one knew the victim was a bad person. He kept doubling down, going so far as to post a pic of Mussolini's lynching. He dared the thread not to feel happy at the sight of him hanging from a meat hook. I forgot how the mods got him to knock not off, but he even challenged them when they called him out on it and told him to shut up.
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Apr 1, 2018 11:56
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Kim Jong Il posted:The protests were Hamas led, and they were clearly designed to provoke regardless of what actually occurred. By Hamas's admission, 5 of the 16 casualties are its members. Israel says 8 casualties were Hamas, with 2 others member of other militant groups. it doesn't matter what group they were members of. that isn't a death sentence. Panzeh posted:So, if a picture can be found of an Israeli civilian in an IDF uniform at some point in the past, one can say that their death was justified, then?
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Apr 1, 2018 12:09
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tertullian straight up said the salvation of christians in heaven will be magnified because they will be allowed to view the torments of their earthly oppressors in hell so like, totally writing off that aspect of the human condition seems really disingenuous and not acknowledging it doesn't seem constructive.
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Apr 1, 2018 12:11
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like if you wanted a more recent example there's that picture of those israelis in sderot on lawn chairs eating snacks and watching destruction rain down on gaza.
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Apr 1, 2018 12:12
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