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sassassin posted:This is all good stuff that supports my position that Sally Po was MVP. Basically anything good that happens in Wing is the result of the women in it.
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Apr 8, 2018 18:32
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Sally Po: better than Treize imo
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Apr 8, 2018 20:15
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chumbler posted:Basically anything good that happens in Wing is the result of the women in it. Agreed. Relena is the true hero(ine) of Wing. Think I had an argument with somebody about that not too long ago in here but I still maintain she serves as the most obviously good and powerful force in the show, at least in the second half.
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Apr 8, 2018 21:41
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Did she actually accomplish anything with either her total pacifism or the times she decided it was okay to fight for peace (often in the same episode)? Everyone ends up saying she'll be useful later when they've had their huge war/half the earth is destroyed but during Wing her kingdom gets destroyed easily, and after she takes over Romefeller Treize walks in and shows her out and the leos immediately start launching into space. She an idealist with an extremist ideology who the characters all seem to agree with (especially the villains because who doesn't want total pacifism when they're sitting on top?) but the events don't, really. The argument of fighting for peace versus total pacifism doesn't reach a satisfying verdict. She a figurehead that drives the narrative forward in the second half but the conclusion is five plucky kids in war machines battling to save the earth from the bloodthirsty villains plans. Endless Waltz ends in a big shootout. Disarmament clearly doesn't work, you end up with 9 year old girls taking over the planet. sassassin fucked around with this message at 22:17 on Apr 8, 2018 |
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Apr 8, 2018 22:15
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Neddy Seagoon posted:I always loved the random lines she tossed out in English for no reason at all. She was the best.
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Apr 8, 2018 22:25
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sassassin posted:Did she actually accomplish anything with either her total pacifism or the times she decided it was okay to fight for peace (often in the same episode)? Those five plucky kids did nothing but gently caress everything up so bad in the first half that Relena had to pick up the pieces in the second half. The Wing Boys' actions ranged from worthless to counterproductive given that they, ya know, directly helped OZ and Romefeller take over the Earth. And since Endless Waltz shows that the Operation Meteor we saw in the anime was nothing more than a random last second decision, that makes sense. Violence is not the solution. It can help - that is the point of Heero being Relena's bodyguard or Heero stopping the Earth from being destroyed - but it can never be the actual answer to the problem. I thought that was a pointedly obvious and un-subtle theme in both Wing and 00. Going around in invincible giant robots wrecking poo poo isn't going to actually help anyone or fix anything.
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Apr 8, 2018 22:30
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NikkolasKing posted:I thought that was a pointedly obvious and un-subtle theme in both Wing and 00. Going around in invincible giant robots wrecking poo poo isn't going to actually help anyone or fix anything. That's the message Wing preaches but in the end wrecking poo poo with giant robots was necessary to stop the bad men who wanted to enforce their will on the Earth sphere. No one's ambitions are stopped simply by pacifism. The general public even take to the streets to fight back at the end of Endless Waltz. If Operation Meteor had not happened (in whichever form) Oz/Romefeller would have clearly still taken over the ESA (the Specials growing power already stated to be a concern when the show begins) and brought weapons production to the space, escalating tensions there and on Earth. Doll technology makes popular support for military actions unnecessary, no soldiers required. The Gundams were a convenient tool, but hardly vital in instigating the coup. As Sally Po tells Wufei, stop talking and blow some things up (please, we're dying).
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Apr 8, 2018 23:21
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sassassin posted:Did she actually accomplish anything with either her total pacifism or the times she decided it was okay to fight for peace (often in the same episode)? But it turns out to be kinda bullshit. And what if it's not human soldiers being sent against the pacifists, see? A nice warning about unquestioning automated warfare too. The reason the Gundam pilots faff about is because they arrive on earth, start wrecking poo poo, and then start wondering what their cause really is and whether they believe in it. Heero makes it clear he won't attack Relena, but with that comes the "I'll kill you" bit which is what happens if she ever strays from the pacifism that he seems to admire; it's the only thing stopping him from doing destroying her. Side theme: "Am I any better than a robot?" Trowa's whole shtick leans towards this. Ranzear fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Apr 9, 2018 |
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Apr 9, 2018 00:47
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Ranzear posted:A theme of the show, or at least what Zechs believes, is that the victor is always whichever soldier believes strongest in their cause. Absolute pacifism is the hard-counter to that, because a soldier cannot have cause against those who don't fight back, and the pacifists have the ultimate cause to believe in. Zechs is one of the firmest believers in the effectiveness of Relena's ideology, as he intends for her to survive and lead the world he's about to ruin. Treize the same. His plan is based on achieving total pacifism (through fear of war's death toll). They keep her hands clean so she can be wheeled out to rule over the wreckage.
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Apr 9, 2018 01:22
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NikkolasKing posted:Agreed. Relena is the true hero(ine) of Wing. Pretty sure we had an argument about that a few months back; though it was mostly about you advocating she was the real protagonist and me saying that while she's a heroine she doesn't fit the role of protagonist at all and thinking she's the best doesn't make her one if I recall. NikkolasKing posted:Violence is not the solution. It can help - that is the point of Heero being Relena's bodyguard or Heero stopping the Earth from being destroyed - but it can never be the actual answer to the problem. To be fair, Relena has to encourage the people to stand up and take back peace using force (or at least it's threat) in Endless Waltz. Whose message at the end is that total pacifism is a nice ideal but it tends to lead to people being over-run by assholes and you have to take and guard peace rather than just say it.
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Apr 9, 2018 01:25
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Relena isn't really an absolute pacifist anymore by the time the Sanc Kingdom collapses.
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Apr 9, 2018 01:37
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Speaking of wing just got up to episode 45 last night. Here's my random thoughts. -Rommafella’s leader is hella dumb. Hey we conquered your country, now we’ll make you’re a symbolic figurehead, I’m sure this won’t backfire -Zech’s becoming leader of the white fang comes from out of goddamn nowhere and I still don’t get why the hell they put him on top, other than the fact that he’s got a gundam. He's not from space, he has no experience leading an army, nothing. -this also leads to by major problem that I had with destiny. Why is the entire world listening to this sixteen year old. Like yeah, I get that she’s royalty, but Jesus no one goes- “hey maybe we shouldn’t turn over our decision making process to a teenager” Relena has more agency than Sayla ever did, so that’s a plus. - The wing zero being passed around like a joint his hilarious. I forgot that 7 people pilot this thing throughout the show. -I like how the wing boys are finally having some real trouble at the end, given that they never worked as a team before. They’re kinda like “oh poo poo we can’t just rely on our gundams steamrolling everyone.” -I’m still flabbergasted how Lady Une survived. I guess mobile doll inventor just shot her and put her in tube for whatever reason. -Treize still rules. Wufei still sucks. -Why are the white fang having Dorothy, a sixteen year old teenager with no military experience, run the zero system. She joined your forces two days ago and you’re giving her a system that drives people bonkers. -Heero has promised to kill half the cast and has not followed through on a single occasion. Monaghan fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Apr 9, 2018 |
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Apr 9, 2018 16:01
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Monaghan posted:-Heero has promised to kill half the cast and has not followed through on a single occasion. Hey, don't judge others for how they greet people.
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Apr 9, 2018 16:07
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It's hard to tell whether Dorothy's love of battle was simply romantic naivety or based on intense book-learning and tactical nous. Maybe that doesn't matter when you're playing with dolls. Adopting Relena into the Romefeller Foundation was in theory a good way to stop people from getting up in arms about having destroyed the Peace(craft) kingdom again. He wants to have his cake and eat it too, believing Relena's pacifism will make her a passive victim, and that his other foundation members love conquering as much as he does. The White Fang approach Zechs after the nation he had spent his whole life working to avenge has been destroyed again, this time by more of less his people. He's mad, he's dumb, and he's got a Gundam. Perfect figurehead for a group of opportunistic extremists.
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Apr 9, 2018 16:26
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Monaghan posted:-Heero has promised to kill half the cast and has not followed through on a single occasion. He's just shy. That's his way of saying 'hello'.
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Apr 9, 2018 20:51
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There’s a giant Gundam 00 box set coming out in North America.
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Apr 9, 2018 21:38
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Monaghan posted:-Heero has promised to kill half the cast and has not followed through on a single occasion. I believe there's a game (an SD Gundam?) where Heero has an "I'll kill you" spirit. Predictably, it makes him incapable of actually killing.
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Apr 9, 2018 22:49
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Edward Mass posted:There’s a giant Gundam 00 box set coming out in North America. Too bad that second half isn't good enough to warrant spending 200 bucks on all those extras.
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Apr 9, 2018 23:37
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Too bad that second half isn't good enough to warrant spending 200 bucks on all those extras. I was thinking recently about what in season 2 would even be salvageable, and all I've got is the general idea that whoops Schoenberg's plan was actually pretty dumb because it led to A-laws, and Tieria looking good in a dress. The rest is just a lot of why is this here. Louise didn't need to be suddenly a super soldier. Liu-Mei didn't need to suddenly have been cartoonishly evil all along. Sergei's son didn't need to even be there. So much of it just felt like filler that you'd practically have to rewrite the season from scratch. I'd maybe even go as far as saying Destiny was a better follow-up to SEED than 00 season 2 to season 1.
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Apr 9, 2018 23:48
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Destiny at least had good ideas and started out trying to develop and criticize the original. It just handled them all horribly and completely even stopped trying rather quickly. 00 S2 is just creatively bankrupt and a cynical cash in from day one which is a thousand times worse then Destiny.
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Apr 10, 2018 00:15
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Blaze Dragon posted:I believe there's a game (an SD Gundam?) where Heero has an "I'll kill you" spirit. Predictably, it makes him incapable of actually killing. Yep, in more than one game Heero's "I'll kill your" ID Command boosts damage and also applies SRW-style Mercy at the same time. It's actually legitimately good, just not at sealing the deal.
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Apr 10, 2018 02:25
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RevolverDivider posted:Destiny at least had good ideas and started out trying to develop and criticize the original. It just handled them all horribly and completely even stopped trying rather quickly. 00 S2 is just creatively bankrupt and a cynical cash in from day one which is a thousand times worse then Destiny. Was Destiny's hard right turn back to Kira being the protagonist from Bandai going "Hey, stop that"?
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Apr 10, 2018 02:31
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The dude who wrote Destiny claims it was always planned that Kira would be protagonist again but Destiny's early stuff is incredibly bizarre even by Destiny standards if that was always intended to be the case since early Destiny really criticizes Kira's philosophy and the short sighted poo poo from the end of SEED. Bandai definitely was against that though since we get poo poo like Kira having any sort of culpability in the death of Shinn's family scrubbed clean out of the HD remakes.
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Apr 10, 2018 02:42
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Was Destiny's hard right turn back to Kira being the protagonist from Bandai going "Hey, stop that"? There's no solid answer as to what exactly was going on. There was some kind of behind the scenes drama but a lot of it is unsourced hearsay. Fukuda and Morisawa both genuinely loved Kira as a character but there was obviously at least some pressure behind the scenes due to Kira's insane loving popularity.
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Apr 10, 2018 02:48
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RevolverDivider posted:The dude who wrote Destiny claims it was always planned that Kira would be protagonist again but Destiny's early stuff is incredibly bizarre even by Destiny standards if that was always intended to be the case since early Destiny really criticizes Kira's philosophy and the short sighted poo poo from the end of SEED. The early part of Destiny is chock full of "Kira's weird 'interventionist pacifist' approach ranges from questionably useful to actively harmful", with examples including Shinn's entire existence, the episode where Cagalli tries it and fails and breaks down crying, to Heine literally dying because Kira disarmed him on an active battlefield. If this was a series of events intended to cause Kira to moderate or adjust his approach it would be fine, but when the protagonist shift happens Kira returns to his exact same approach from SEED with zero consequences, which just makes the early part of Destiny confusing in retrospect if the intent was for Kira to become the protagonist again. Kanos fucked around with this message at 03:11 on Apr 10, 2018 |
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Apr 10, 2018 03:05
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Kanos posted:The early part of Destiny is chock full of "Kira's weird 'interventionist pacifist' approach ranges from questionably useful to actively harmful", with examples including Shinn's entire existence, the episode where Cagalli tries it and fails and breaks down crying, to Heine literally dying because Kira disarmed him on an active battlefield. If this was a series of events intended to cause Kira to moderate or adjust his approach it would be fine, but when the protagonist shift happens Kira returns to his exact same approach from SEED with zero consequences, which just makes the early part of Destiny confusing in retrospect if the intent was for Kira to become the protagonist again. That isn't entirely true. Kira and Athrun have a talk about how they need to change what they're doing and the ending is literally Kira breaking into the Neo-Genesis planning to shoot Durandal himself. They wave their hands at it but never actually have to follow through with the consequence of changing their actions.
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Apr 10, 2018 03:12
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chumbler posted:I was thinking recently about what in season 2 would even be salvageable, and all I've got is the general idea that whoops Schoenberg's plan was actually pretty dumb because it led to A-laws, and Tieria looking good in a dress. The rest is just a lot of why is this here. Louise didn't need to be suddenly a super soldier. Liu-Mei didn't need to suddenly have been cartoonishly evil all along. Sergei's son didn't need to even be there. So much of it just felt like filler that you'd practically have to rewrite the season from scratch. I mean, afaik there wasn't a real formal plan beyond getting humanity ready for spaaaaaace. Some basic poo poo like uniting humanity is clearly a step in that direction but while some of the stuff orchestrated by Ribbons may have been been beneficial, he was clearly in it for his own benefit and had enough influence over things to change it further for his own benefit.
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Apr 10, 2018 04:32
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Ribbons was the Mule to Sheinberg's Hari Seldon.
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Apr 10, 2018 05:49
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ImpAtom posted:That isn't entirely true. Kira and Athrun have a talk about how they need to change what they're doing and the ending is literally Kira breaking into the Neo-Genesis planning to shoot Durandal himself. They wave their hands at it but never actually have to follow through with the consequence of changing their actions. I mean, Kira tried to kill Rau, too, so him planning to kill Durandal because there was absolutely no other option for him isn't really him changing his behavior.
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Apr 10, 2018 06:45
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That second Build Divers episode was much better now that it's not saddled with explaining the basic concept. It still feels very kids' show, but at least the physical comedy bits are pretty good - it reminds me of PokeSuMo. Lemon-Lime fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Apr 10, 2018 |
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Apr 10, 2018 13:20
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I like the Gundam Rap
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Apr 10, 2018 14:06
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Guy Goodbody posted:I like the Gundam Rap Japanese rap is powerful. Uematsu knows it, Yuasa knows it, you should know it.
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Apr 10, 2018 16:21
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As lost as 00 S2 is, it's not as blatantly garbage as everything past about ep 11-13 in Destiny. Destiny throws this really cool concept at you and then completely abandons it. Kanos and RevolverDivider covered that so I won't add on. My biggest problem with 00 S2 is that indeed so much of it feels like replacement filler right down to the well we've just got another Lockon here enjoy! It's not actively bad for me in the way Destiny was where you just roll eyes at everything that happens for 3/4 of its run time. Plus Destiny is easily 35-40 episodes of garbage vs 00 S2s at most 20 episodes of middling whatever.
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Apr 10, 2018 22:26
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I could bring myself to watch 00 S2 but I couldn't do the same for Destiny Granted it was a bit harder to get  back in the day
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Apr 11, 2018 01:36
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I actually quite like Lockon: The Sequel because they at least tried to give him an arc about having to step into his dead brother's shoes while simultaneously trying to get out of his dead brother's shadow, and there's a lot of little touches about that, even down to robot design: Lockon 1 was almost a pure sniper, whereas Lockon 2 is much more about mid range skirmish combat and the way he uses his robot's tools reflect that.
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Apr 11, 2018 01:40
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Schubalts posted:And now I want PUBG, but in mobile suits. PUBG, but G Gundam's battle royale island stage. i've unironically been poking at learning Unity or UE4 to make a mecha battle royale game my idea is essentially: - 100 people drop out of a plane onto an island, classic PUBG style, on foot - there's human-sized weapons and armor in buildings, but where you'd ordinarily expect to see vehicles, there's instead empty, armed randomized mecha waiting to be taken and used (and there's also additional ammo and new parts for them mixed in with the human-sized loot) - if you can't score a mecha immediately, supply drops would, instead of having really nice human-sized loot, have at least one guaranteed kitted out mecha, and the parts you find would include "frames" that you can use to straight up build a janky one out of loot the idea would be, it would be like playing a batshit crazy version of Chromehounds MP with the option of going Mellowlink on people's asses on foot in solo, and 4-man squad (or 8-man squad) would basically be 08th MS Team Simulator
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Apr 11, 2018 04:03
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I have a soft spot for Lockon 2.0 for the reasons stated above. The concept is stupid but they actually try to go somewhere with him. Honestly I think the movie is straight up better then 00S2. While the execution completely and utterly falls apart in the back half, the ideas and concepts the movie presents are way way more interesting then anything in S2, and I give it a lot of credit for actually trying to do something unlike its predecessor.
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Apr 11, 2018 04:55
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Who is this Lockon? I think you mean  ROCKON
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Apr 11, 2018 12:07
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Apr 11, 2018 15:11
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Ouch, bad news for anyone who was hoping the Origin series would go on to cover the entire OYW timeline (i.e. everyone), the latest trailer suggests that will not be happening. At 0.54 or thereabouts the title card says "[Kidou Senshi Gundam: The Origin] anime series complete!" with the word used for complete specifically meaning completely finished (with no more to come). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icxi47U0y-o Interestingly trailer 2 just said the Loum arc would be completed so perhaps something changed in the past few months? Either way genuinely disappointing if not fairly predictable.
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Apr 11, 2018 17:58
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