|
The issue is that nobody who plays in the pond of politics has an unimpeachable record. It’s like the mafia - in order to get made you need something on you so that party structures can exert their influence
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 13:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 20:09 |
|
|
Peven Stan posted:The issue is that nobody who plays in the pond of politics has an unimpeachable record. It’s like the mafia - in order to get made you need something on you so that party structures can exert their influence That seems like a convenient lie the bad people tell you to try to justify being bad. "nah, everyone does it! I'm just honest about it!"
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 13:55
|
|
|
If the corrupt political system can't give the head of state a quiet retirement it encourage them to do whatever it takes to stay on power, because losing the election is ruination of the whole faction.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 14:03
|
|
|
This is why South Korean presidents aren't allowed to stand for re-election. That the proposed constitutional reform will allow for two terms is the main aspect of it I'm pretty lukewarm on, even though Kim Dae-jung is probably the only president in living memory who could have actually won re-election. Although really, you need military support to try and stay in power indefinitely, and South Korean conservatives just aren't closely enough linked with the military for that possibility to be feasible. Lee Myung-bak and Park Geun-hye ran on being corporatist managers, and South Korean elites are infamous for trying to weasel their sons out of the same miserable PTSD experience the sons of normal people get. Which incidentally leads to the next problem of a military takeover. South Korea has no culture of military worship, in part because of its past history of military dictatorship, but also because half of the population has been in the military and knows that it really loving sucks. Most of the conscripts that are in it right now don't want to be there, and it's not clear that they'd follow orders to repress the local population as used to be common. There's a reason why anti-protest duties in the recent conservative era have fallen to police rather than the military. That's a job you have to give people who are self-selected to support state interests, and the recent visible role of the police in suppressing leftist protests while doing gently caress-all about insane right-wingers has left the police in a very bad position when it comes to public relations.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 14:51
|
|
|
Owlofcreamcheese posted:That seems like a convenient lie the bad people tell you to try to justify being bad. "nah, everyone does it! I'm just honest about it!" It is, however, accurate: if the institutions of government have a long history of being shaped for and by the corrupt, then even someone actively reducing corruption would likely still have to do technically corrupt things from time to time in the process (and might then be removed for being corrupt by the actually most corrupt people). I suppose you could start a revolution, but even in cases where it would be justified to do so, it isn't always possible assuming the point is actual change and not just suicide by cop.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 14:53
|
|
I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
|
Some Guy TT posted:That's a job you have to give people who are self-selected to support state interests, and the recent visible role of the police in suppressing leftist protests while doing gently caress-all about insane right-wingers has left the police in a very bad position when it comes to public relations.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 17:39
|
|
|
Anecdotes aren’t data, but the Koreans I talk to also seem to have a heavy emotional attachment to individual politicians, as opposed to parties or policies. A lot of Americans will self identify as die hard conservatives/liberals, but Koreans seem to love the guy/girl. Like they never start talking about policy planks, it’s just how politician X is so great and honest and kind and I love him/her and, by extension, anyone in his ‘network’ (mostly the younger guys who came up under the patronage of the main guy).
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 20:43
|
|
|
So they're suckers for demagogues? They've got that much in common with the states, judging by the current Cheeto-Chief.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 21:16
|
|
|
TsarZiedonis posted:Anecdotes aren’t data, but the Koreans I talk to also seem to have a heavy emotional attachment to individual politicians, as opposed to parties or policies. A lot of Americans will self identify as die hard conservatives/liberals, but Koreans seem to love the guy/girl. Like they never start talking about policy planks, it’s just how politician X is so great and honest and kind and I love him/her and, by extension, anyone in his ‘network’ (mostly the younger guys who came up under the patronage of the main guy). That's kinda how it is here too? That's the incumbency effect ("politicians are all crooks except my guy who does a nice job and is really swell when you see him at the parade")
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 21:21
|
|
|
WarpedNaba posted:So they're suckers for demagogues? They've got that much in common with the states, judging by the current Cheeto-Chief. Moon Jae-in is about as far from a demagogue as you can get. He got blamed for losing the 2012 election mainly for running a campaign without pandering or promising magical solutions, instead focusing on long-term cultural sea change. That he stuck to his guns and wouldn't back down off of those positions in the aftermath of the loss, or even when a hostile takeover the party was attempted, has been interpreted as proof of Moon Jae-in's legitimacy. Admittedly that statement does not say anything about what Moon Jae-in's policy positions actually were. But South Korean politics are so wonky and technical (see the current constitutional reform) that overall personality is the main thing that people can easily remember.
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 22:06
|
|
|
Some Guy TT posted:This negative language strikes me as a bit odd considering that Park Geun-hye and Lee Myung-bak are in fact guilty of the crimes they've been accused of. That much has never really been in dispute. The entire debate has just been over the optics of sending political opposition to jail without making value judgments as to whether or not they deserve it. Well, at least in Brazil's case it's being used against the left to great effect, and also in SK with Roh Moo-hyun, right? I don't think it's completely black and white but IMO it's probably better just not to have a precedent of arresting and jailing former presidents if it's very likely to be used to suppress the left as well
|
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 23:04
|
|
|
A critically important element of the principle at play here is whether the ex-president in question actually committed the crime. It's not clear that Roh Moo-hyeon could have actually been prosecuted for what little dirt Lee Myung-bak managed to dig up and blow out of proportion. The Roh Moo-hyeon investigation only came up at all because of the Mad Cow protests, which Lee Myung-bak and his cronies decided had been masterminded by Roh Moo-hyeon's website (because as ex-president he no longer lived in Seoul). Notably Moon Jae-in did not pursue a "lock her up" platform in 2017, though that would have been popular. His position was that an investigation had to take place and once the evidence was publically available, the mood of local citizens would decide her fate. Lee Myung-bak is being held to the same standard. The only reason the government is going for blood is because that's what the public wants. By way of contrast one of the big factors to sink Ahn Cheol-soo's campaign was that he stated he would be willing to consider pardoning Park Geun-hye. This answer immediately pissed the hell out of drat near everyone, because Ahn's statement was interpreted as being a Ford-like gesture to save the country the spectacle of a trial when a trial was very much what people wanted. Of course talking about doing pardons at all was an idiotic move. Pardons were a major feature of the corruption machines Lee Myung-bak and Park Geun-hye used to reward their allies. A big reason why Moon Jae-in is pushing so hard on constitutional reform is because it's the only way to fix of the pardon system. That alone will probably guarantee that the revisions pass a popular vote even if most of the reform is just going to be weird wonky stuff no one will understand. These revisions are also likely to be the best way to try and curtail politically motivated prosecution in the future. But I don't know much of the constitutional reform really gets into that. edit: my mistake, Ahn Cheol-soo didn't actually say that, he said a bunch of equivocating bullshit that in context couldn't easily be interpreted any other way. In all fairness Moon Jae-in has moments like that too, but his fallback is always "we should do what the people want" while Ahn Cheol-soo's fallback is "the system works and we should just strengthen it". The former message is a lot more convincing in the aftershock of a series of events that demonstrates just how broken the existing system is. Some Guy TT fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Apr 11, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 11, 2018 23:32
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/986208912205467653?s=21 This seems kinda huge.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2018 16:10
|
|
|
I'd wait for an actual korean source on this.
|
|
#
?
Apr 17, 2018 16:34
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/986394542537658368?s=21 https://twitter.com/willripleycnn/status/986404568819904512?s=21
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 02:09
|
|
|
Under no circumstances should the CIA ever be doing diplomatic work. Trump has hosed everything up to an insane degree. I wonder what pompeo offered.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 04:21
|
|
|
Grapplejack posted:Under no circumstances should the CIA ever be doing diplomatic work. Trump has hosed everything up to an insane degree. Obama and W Bush sent intelligence officials to North Korea too, so it's really not that crazy for Pompeo to have gone.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 04:35
|
|
|
gently caress Trump and gently caress Pompeo but I’m pleased we are at least talking with NK directly.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 04:50
|
|
|
Demiurge4 posted:https://twitter.com/haaretzcom/status/986208912205467653?s=21 The North has always required American withdrawal in return for a treaty, so I'm skeptical. Even if they do sign a treaty, how does that materially change things? Will they stop building nukes? No. Will they draw down the number of soldiers on the DMZ? No. Will they stop aggressively patroling the maratime border? No. Will they stop selling missiles to middle eastern countries and counterfitting US currency? No. So, what exactly does it accomplish accept good PR for both parties.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 05:21
|
|
|
Sinteres posted:Obama and W Bush sent intelligence officials to North Korea too, so it's really not that crazy for Pompeo to have gone. The key difference is that Obama and Bush sent the officials there. Pompeo did this without Trump's knowledge.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 05:42
|
|
|
An official end to the war would require everyone who contributed UN forces to also sign off on it so it would be tantamount to South Korea signing a separate peace agreement which is a pretty big diplomatic faux pas
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 05:48
|
|
|
When it comes to enormous faux pas', they have the right guy.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 05:58
|
|
|
Thump! posted:The key difference is that Obama and Bush sent the officials there. Pompeo did this without Trump's knowledge. Wait, really?
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 06:20
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:Wait, really? Every report I've seen is saying that Trump sent Pompeo as an Envoy, but that he traveled with only other CIA staff, not staff from the State Dept or West Wing. Tillerson was fired on March 13th, this meeting supposedly took place over Easter weekend, and Pompeo was already known to be the intended replacement for SecState, so in that regard sending Pompeo makes sense. MullardEL34 fucked around with this message at 06:34 on Apr 18, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 06:31
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:The North has always required American withdrawal in return for a treaty, so I'm skeptical. I feel like any treaty involving denuclearization would require U.N. inspectors akin to Iraq’s inspections, right? I don’t imagine any treaty would involve some sort of honor system that would allow them to continue all those things. Any potential cooling of tensions would have to start with exactly the steps that are going on now, so I’m hopeful. Just wish it was literally any other President in American history that Kim was meeting with.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 06:41
|
|
|
Charlz Guybon posted:Will they stop building nukes? No. At worst they're doing it a lot slower than they were last year. Short of nuking the place ourselves I don't see how anything aside from a peace agreement will do better than that. quote:Will they draw down the number of soldiers on the DMZ? No. What makes you so sure of that? South Korea has just as many on the other side of the border, and any drawdown would be mutual. quote:Will they stop aggressively patroling the maratime border? No. This one is just nonsense. South Korea is the one who has a stick up their rear end about the maritime border, which North Korea never actually agreed to and is in flagrant violation of maritime law. Even the United States won't back up South Korea's claims on this point. quote:Will they stop selling missiles to middle eastern countries and counterfitting US currency? No. That counterfeiting US currency conspiracy theory is still a thing? Also, lol if you think we are in any position to tut-tut other countries about selling missiles to the middle east.
|
|
#
?
Apr 18, 2018 23:09
|
|
|
It's not that far fetched to believe that a white nationalist administration wants to quickly wrap up American entanglements overseas. A large part of why the hart cellar act allowed nonwhites to move to America again was Cold War politics - America was best friends with Japan, South Korea, and Taiwan but wouldn't let their nationals move and live here. Soviet propaganda was killing them in developed countries. Hart Cellar and the subsequent developments (like calling east asians model minorities) are a consequence of that geopolitical environment. Now that the Cold War is over and whites are feeling that their privilege gets them less and less every year, I'm sure most of them would rush to the polls to vote for a politician that would end the American empire overseas if it allowed them to ban nonwhite immigration again.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 02:04
|
|
|
Kind of ironic given that this is the explicit immigration policy of every major east Asian country.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 02:21
|
|
|
EasternBronze posted:Kind of ironic given that this is the explicit immigration policy of every major east Asian country. Typical of white people to mash the whatabout button when it suits their needs.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 03:25
|
|
|
Peven Stan posted:Typical of white people to mash the whatabout button when it suits their needs. There is no ironicat large enough.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 03:46
|
|
|
Lotta false hope for some sort of peace treaty. Pompeo's angle seems to be to convince Kim that the situation in his country is deteriorating, that he's not getting the right information and that he can trade nukes for some semblance of aid and normalization short of a peace treaty and the withdrawal of US troops from South Korea. Hard to see it working.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 06:21
|
|
|
LeoMarr posted:Its very obviius you have a narrow minded view of how diseases are contracted. malaria is still prevailent in NK which was the point of discussing Mosquitos. Small pox lives and breeds in cramped conditiobs. Disease can spread rapidly due to the lack of gene pool diversity. Its not a conspiracy but thats a great buzzword for anything that doesnt conform to your narrow minded opinion. I dont understand what you are trying to counter here. Do you actually believe there are no diseases running rampant in NK? I halfway regret knowing I should have even asked the question. Should I be concerned about my weak genes helping bring back smallpox if more relatives get to bust out of north korea?
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 07:53
|
|
|
Just contract Cowpox and you'll be fine.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 08:25
|
|
|
Kavros posted:I halfway regret knowing I should have even asked the question. Should I be concerned about my weak genes helping bring back smallpox if more relatives get to bust out of north korea? I don't think North Koreans are all subhuman plague carriers like LeoMarr does.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 08:38
|
|
|
Bip Roberts posted:I don't think North Koreans are all subhuman plague carriers like LeoMarr does. loving ignore him already, he is bar none the most ignorant babby poster itt and I'd appreciate not having him quoted.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 08:43
|
|
|
Tias posted:loving ignore him already, he is bar none the most ignorant babby poster itt and I'd appreciate not having him quoted. also staying in hongik next month so ready to martyr myself for immortal juche thought
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 08:47
|
|
|
Bip Roberts posted:I don't think North Koreans are all subhuman plague carriers like LeoMarr does. Phew, bodes well for me! Of course, leomarr had only briefly quoted/mentioned some things which did feature in conversations I had about the north that are for actual real, which mostly boils down to diseases of opportunity from poor living conditions, poor healthcare, and recurring famine issues. A LOT of intestinal parasites in some regions, like what that recent defector had.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 09:21
|
|
|
Well, spoke too soon.
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 17:11
|
|
|
One of these days we're really going to have to find out if Moon is just making poo poo up or not. This seems pretty firmly in 'huge if true' territory: North Korea has dropped its long-held demand that the United States withdraw forces from South Korea in exchange for denuclearization, South Korean President Moon Jae-in said Thursday. https://www.cnn.com/2018/04/19/asia/north-korea-us-forces-korean-peninsula-intl/index.html
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 21:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 21, 2024 20:09 |
|
|
If Trump ends up accidentally solving the Korean issue I swear to God...
|
|
#
?
Apr 19, 2018 23:40
|
|