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To jump on the Verus bandwagon: his encounter with the Revenge Teens is really what cemented the moral gray area of the series, and I'm so glad that it keeps getting brought up every book because of course no one would forget how he had to kill some kids. When Harry Dresden bitches about "bwuh am i a bad guy??" it has no impact because his negative actions are always given an out (either implicitly, or explicitly by another character explaining well actually it wasn't bad, because).
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Apr 17, 2018 00:47
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Velius posted:I’m really hoping Caitlin is playing a long game with Faust for some non-twue Love reason. They introduce the idea that maybe she is then it’s resolved shortly after that. Her being with Faust doesn’t really make sense otherwise - she’s demonic royalty, whatever that entails in the setting, while he’s some small time criminal. I guess but she's not the only one that for some reason makes time with a human, Emma Loomis does too and even has a kid with him and it seems like a relatively healthy relationship. It is jarring whenever you think about it though you're right, considering that it's only the two of them that seem to do it with actual emotional investment. Maybe because he writes a book every six months
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Apr 17, 2018 00:51
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ConfusedUs posted:I firmly believe that Jordan was one of the most influential authors in fantasy, specifically with regards to "epic" fantasy. He laid a foundation for a new renaissance in the genre. He did it so well that he was outclassed in his own lifetime, and his most famous work was finished by someone who is his successor in the field. Does this mean Benedict Jacka is gonna finish writing The Dresden Files down the road? 
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Apr 17, 2018 02:37
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Phobeste posted:I guess but she's not the only one that for some reason makes time with a human, Emma Loomis does too and even has a kid with him and it seems like a relatively healthy relationship. Uh, yeah, about that. How many books have you read?
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Apr 17, 2018 03:12
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biracial bear for uncut posted:Uh, yeah, about that. How many books have you read? Imo it's pretty sincere on Emma's end for Demon Of Envy values of sincerity and relationship-health. Which makes it all the more interesting to compare it to Faust, because her husband has the Actual Morally Correct response to the whole thing, if rather belatedly, and gets super-dead for it. Faust forked over the Ring of freakin' Solomon and keeps getting involved in improbably high-octane situations. I can totally see Sitri being perfectly happy with this as long as he keeps his head above water. Especially if Sitri suspects that there actually is something fancy going on fate-wise (see: the Archetype War) rather than just a shitload of wacky coincidences. edit: I also sort of get the impression that the Court of Jade Tears might in general be a lot fonder of the stupid monkeys than some of their fellows. It's stated that they don't consider cambions to be by definition total trash, unlike almost everybody else. Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 01:33 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 01:30
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GreyjoyBastard posted:Faust forked over the Ring of freakin' Solomon and keeps getting involved in improbably high-octane situations. I can totally see Sitri being perfectly happy with this as long as he keeps his head above water. Especially if Sitri suspects that there actually is something fancy going on fate-wise (see: the Archetype War) rather than just a shitload of wacky coincidences. Plus Lucifer hit Faust up at the casino bar (or wherever) in the previous book.
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Apr 18, 2018 02:50
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GreyjoyBastard posted:For that matter, he's literally never given a particular gently caress about people he considers bad suffering horribly / for eternity. That was kind of a thing in the first book. His only really serious "wait, maybe this Hell thing isn't so great" moment was with the victim in the first book, and if Caitlin ever told him about how she resolved it he'd probably be quite pleased. I sort of dismiss this because it doesn't seem any more monstrous than baseline humanity, honestly. After all, "if you're a bad person you go to hell and burn for eternity" is pretty much standard issue Christianity.
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Apr 18, 2018 08:28
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Khizan posted:I sort of dismiss this because it doesn't seem any more monstrous than baseline humanity, honestly. After all, "if you're a bad person you go to hell and burn for eternity" is pretty much standard issue Christianity. Which, as it happens, actually has very little basis in the Bible at all. 
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Apr 18, 2018 13:51
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Doesn't matter, though. That belief is pretty mainstream anyways.
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Apr 18, 2018 14:26
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So I finally started reading Alex Verus. I think I like it mostly, though there are more than a few things that bother me about it. 1) Holy poo poo are his enemies morons. It feels like almost everyone he fights, including people who have fought him before and explicitly have insight into his power-set, are hit with an insane idiot ball constantly and don't treat him like an actual threat despite how successful he's been. And the people he doesn't fight are worse since none of them seem to actually respect how insanely powerful divination is. Alex keeps having internal monologues about how he's the underdog and poo poo, but his power is by far the most broken and bullshit powerful thing we see in the series. 2) I'm glad the thing where it looked like he was going to hook up with Luna was dropped after book 2/3, but Anne is still pretty bad as a love interest and it feels kinda eh the series seems to be heading that way. Alex x Caldera otp 3) There are too many assassins. There are multiple assassination attempts, sometimes upwards of 10, per book. Its silly as gently caress. 4) The politics feel inconsistent and kinda dumb. Everyone in Light Magic society hates Alex for being a former Dark apprentice basically on sight, but there's enough political will to grant at least one of the council seats to a Dark Mage and supposedly most mages are idiotic 'don't rock the boat' centrists. 5) A lot of the 'morally greyer' than Dresden stuff mostly seems to be window dressing at this point since where I left off (end of book 7) no one actually gives a poo poo about the bad things he's done any more. He's made up with the two friends who were uncomfortable with him slaughtering a group of teenagers, everyone he fights is ridiculously evil in comparison, pretty much everyone's stopped objecting to murder (even the characters defined as ardent pacifists) and have joined in on it with it... idk. There was a single sympathetic villain early on, but since then its mostly just been an escalating series of monsters.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:24
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Verus basically can't win any sort of straight-up fight. He knows it. Everyone knows it. He has to cheat. Everyone seems to go wrong by giving him room to breathe during the fight. If you leave him an out, he WILL find it. That's literally his power. So don't. Ambush him on ground of your choosing. Block all the exits or do the attack somewhere he can't escape, like a boat or plane. Set the whole place on fire. Whatever. Put him into a box with no way out, then burn it to the ground.
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Apr 18, 2018 16:47
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Also if you think Verus’s power is broken wait until you meet Richard
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Apr 18, 2018 21:58
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Daric posted:Also if you think Verus’s power is broken wait until you meet Richard I remember a lot of speculation about what, exactly, his power is. It seems to be subtly different (and far more powerful) than Alex's. Few people are scared of Alex the way they are of him.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:00
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Syzygy Stardust posted:Plus Lucifer hit Faust up at the casino bar (or wherever) in the previous book. I remember that conversation, with the "older dude" but is it confirmed later that he really was the guy? He had the conversation about being an archtitect "before he retired" right? It's been a minute since I've read that book.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:07
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ConfusedUs posted:I remember a lot of speculation about what, exactly, his power is. It seems to be subtly different (and far more powerful) than Alex's. I think the one I find most appealing, is that his magic is *related* to divination but more powerful. Instead of seeing probable future paths and choosing the the optimal one, he’s able to eliminate all other paths except the one he wants. Rather than reading the future, he’s forcing his vision on the future.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:08
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hatelull posted:I remember that conversation, with the "older dude" but is it confirmed later that he really was the guy? He had the conversation about being an archtitect "before he retired" right? There’s been no confirmation as in it being stated baldly in the book. But it’s fairly obvious that the intention is it was him.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:10
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Proteus Jones posted:I think the one I find most appealing, is that his magic is *related* to divination but more powerful. Instead of seeing probable future paths and choosing the the optimal one, he’s able to eliminate all other paths except the one he wants. Rather than reading the future, he’s forcing his vision on the future. Yeah, having just finished up the series to this point this tracks pretty well with some of the clues in that last book. Alex having the futures just wink out when he actually tries to attack Richard is pretty telling. Of course he could also just be a Diviner who prepares more than Alex. Nothing he does on screen seems beyond the scope of what Alex could theoretically do, it just would require a ton more resources and magical items. Though he does introduce a weird an awkward retcon of 'generic universal spells' to hide his exact powerset. Up till that point in the series mages were pretty strictly defined by their element/classification and outside of gating being a thing for Elemental mages there aren't really 'universal' spells. Alex certainly isn't able to make a light etc. Zore fucked around with this message at 22:19 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 22:17
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ConfusedUs posted:I remember a lot of speculation about what, exactly, his power is. It seems to be subtly different (and far more powerful) than Alex's. My suspicion: It's hinted that Fate wizards are extant but rare -- i.e., human Fateweavers, who can *make* a potential future happen. . I think it's quite likely Richard is such. Note that Richard then has a huge incentive to Harvest Verus. Zore posted:
He does actually straight-up lose some friends (Sonder, possibly Caldera. ConfusedUs posted:Verus basically can't win any sort of straight-up fight. He knows it. Everyone knows it. He has to cheat. There are a couple of points in the series where this is attempted -- the cab attack in the first book and a few others. Zore posted:So I finally started reading Alex Verus. I think I like it mostly, though there are more than a few things that bother me about it. A lot of the fights he gets into, though, are with enemies who either don't realize who they're fighting, are fighting him for the first time, are apprentices or otherwise non-expert, or are fighting at places and times of Verus's choosing. There aren't many people who fight Verus multiple times (e.g., Cinder basically stops trying after a certain point). I think it' also relevant that Verus is the only "combat diviner" we really see; every other diviner in the series is a massive scaredycat who gets the hell out of dodge at the first sign of trouble. So it's not unrealistic for other mages to expect verus to be more like Helikaon or other more cowardly diviners who just cut and run, rather than someone who takes the fight to the enemy. The bigger issue is that people so often betray Verus without expecting him to realize that they're gonna do so. But it's like he says in the first book when being walked past a locked door -- people just don't get what he's capable of. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 22:23 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 22:17
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:He does actually straight-up lose some friends (Sonder, possibly Caldera. Eh, Sonder still works with him despite everything and there's every indication that relationship is going to mend based on their scenes in the last book. Ditto Caldera. ConfusedUs posted:I remember a lot of speculation about what, exactly, his power is. It seems to be subtly different (and far more powerful) than Alex's. Remember though, no one knows what Richard's powers are exactly. And every other diviner we see in the series is a weird old hermit, and it usually drives initiates insane. quote:I think it' also relevant that Verus is the only "combat diviner" we really see; every other diviner in the series is a massive scaredycat who gets the hell out of dodge at the first sign of trouble. So it's not unrealistic for other mages to expect verus to be more like Helikaon or other more cowardly diviners who just cut and run, rather than someone who takes the fight to the enemy. This is a fair point though. The other diviners we see 'onscreen' tend to vastly downplay how their abilities work or just fudge it for whatever reason. Zore fucked around with this message at 22:27 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 22:25
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:A lot of the fights he gets into, though, are with enemies who either don't realize who they're fighting, are fighting him for the first time, are apprentices or otherwise non-expert, or are fighting at places and times of Verus's choosing. There aren't many people who fight Verus multiple times (e.g., Cinder basically stops trying after a certain point). turns out verus is actually a poo poo mage on top of all that
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Apr 18, 2018 22:27
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Zore posted:
Bhodi posted:I like that when we meet actual diviners, they're so far above him in power they don't even show up to fights because they see it coming, just nope out weeks in advance of any conflict. can wander through time and send messages and all this poo poo he didn't even know existed The impression I get is that Verus is a lot more focused on predicting the immediate short term future than the other diviners we meet are. He's . .. literally . . . short-sighted.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:36
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:The impression I get is that Verus is a lot more focused on predicting the immediate short term future than the other diviners we meet are. He's . .. literally . . . short-sighted. Yeah, he goes for a high degree of accuracy on the immediate future. The others are much more about picking out the broader picture. Remember, the Crusaders start trying to kill him because that master Diviner was like 'Yeah, looking ahead there's about a 30% chance he fucks this whole thing up and gives the artifact to Richard, 60% chance he just dies and a 10% he manages to thread the needle'. On an event that was a week+ out. Those odds are going to be constantly changing, but they're okay with the snapshot. Basically the other diviners are pollsters and take the overall temperature of the country while Verus is crawling around mapping out a single street and its residents really well. They're going to be right most of the time overall, but Verus is crawling in the weeds constantly and will sometimes be able to catch edge cases etc. Because they're probability mages and Verus is the idiot who actually tries to go for 100% certainty on everything. Zore fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Apr 18, 2018 |
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Apr 18, 2018 22:39
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Zore posted:So I finally started reading Alex Verus. I think I like it mostly, though there are more than a few things that bother me about it. He is definitely a little OP, which is why the author took away a few of his toys, like Starbreeze and the Mist Cloak. Other posters noted that most people don’t get exactly how his powers work or the variety of little tricks he has worked up. I actually just finished a re-read and I agree that the politics side makes zero sense. The whole “Light Mage” “Dark Mage” crap is just unwieldy and suspension-breaking and unnecessary to the point where I developed a whole other canon in my mind that I pretend is the actual deal. I enjoy the books and they are super quick reads, but I won’t be sad if this next one or the one after wraps it up.
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Apr 18, 2018 22:59
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Zore posted:. They're going to be right most of the time overall, but Verus is crawling in the weeds constantly and will sometimes be able to catch edge cases etc. Yup. The interesting thing is that if you read between the lines, Richard seems to have pretty consciously bent Verus in that direction. All those "release him in the maze and let Tobruk chase him" etc. were a great way to train Verus in short-term stuff like combat and lockpicking, but Verus didn't even get an inkling that stuff like long-term path-walking was *possible* until afterwards, when he went to Helikaon. Net result is that Verus seems to be really, really unusual by the standards of the setting. He's the only Dark-side diviner we meet, and also the only combat-focused one. So it's at least semi-believable that his opponents never really adjust to his tactics; he's a machine gun in a muzzle-loading world. navyjack posted:
Author has said that the series is gonna be about 12 books total, so yeah, we're actually getting close to the end. It seems to take him about ten months to write each one.
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Apr 18, 2018 23:00
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OK, I was really confused for a second. There really are two threads talking about this
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Apr 18, 2018 23:01
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navyjack posted:He is definitely a little OP, which is why the author took away a few of his toys, like Starbreeze and the Mist Cloak. Other posters noted that most people don’t get exactly how his powers work or the variety of little tricks he has worked up. Preface: I haven't read the books in a while and there may be something in there that totally contradicts the rest of this post. I think the politics work better if you consider that Richard and Morden and whoever else are basically putting on a fiction that paints the Dark Mages as misunderstood. They don't really do evil stuff, they just have a kind of Darwinian survival of the fittest philosophy! What makes this effective is that they have political allies on the Council, and that they don't get caught being evil. These guys never do dirty work, they use catspaws, and in the books they mainly use Verus. Most people don't have the inside view of Richard's household that we get through Verus, and they don't get to see the poo poo that Deleo and Onyx get up to. The reason everyone is suspicious of Verus isn't that he used to be Dark, it's that he isn't Light and isn't willing to affiliate with anyone so he seems like a dangerous, unpredictable renegade. Add to that the general knowledge that he did kill people, that (as others have said) he doesn't act like a regular diviner, that he associates with monsters and outcasts, and that there is a powerful council member who totally hates him and he is going to come across to people as being a pretty nasty guy.
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Apr 18, 2018 23:17
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Plus: Almost all mages in the setting are, functionally, pretty drat dark. With the exception of a few idealistic types (Caldera, Sonder) pretty much everyone is reasonably dark; all the mages are one-percenters and if you aren't a mage you aren't people. The dark mages are joining the council because there's not that much real disagreement, in practical political terms, between them and the "light" mages.
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Apr 18, 2018 23:31
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Zore posted:Yeah, having just finished up the series to this point this tracks pretty well with some of the clues in that last book. Alex having the futures just wink out when he actually tries to attack Richard is pretty telling. That’s not a retcon, it’s what Richard learned during his ten years in the alternate reality. During the raid on the vault it’s obvious he’s a diviner who just learned some extra tricks during that interlude. Check his warning to Verus about a side passage ahead and his accurate, bounded prediction of how many he would kill compared to Verus in the final showdown. He’s a diviner with unique magic tricks, gun training (compare to Verus’ throwing), mystery about his capabilities, aggression, and better foci. Hell, the Council intel report has him owning and exerting power through imbued magic items. Verus is a lesser Drahk.
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Apr 19, 2018 04:46
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Plus: Not to get too political, but the whole setup looked a lot more unrealistic until 2-3 years ago. if you substitute "light mage" with center-right and "dark mage" with far-right/fascist it might be a bit more relatable how a group that has been in the weeds for decades quite quickly can gain political influence, access and popularity despite being assholes and shitstains.
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Apr 19, 2018 06:32
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Honestly after it being hyped up here - i expected Alex to have done much worse than tag along for one bad mission in a mostly support role, then regret it almost immediately and do his best to fix it.
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Apr 19, 2018 14:18
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Avalerion posted:Honestly after it being hyped up here - i expected Alex to have done much worse than tag along for one bad mission in a mostly support role, then regret it almost immediately and do his best to fix it. Especially once you realize most of his supporting cast have done worse when they were the same age. But its his reveal that triggers a bunch of pearl clutching.
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Apr 19, 2018 14:30
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Avalerion posted:Honestly after it being hyped up here - i expected Alex to have done much worse than tag along for one bad mission in a mostly support role, then regret it almost immediately and do his best to fix it. Zing still, that's far more on the "dark past" meter than Dresden ever even approaches
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Apr 19, 2018 14:31
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Zing Harry on-screen torturing those ghouls is arguably darker than anything Alex ever gets up to.
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Apr 19, 2018 14:35
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Zore posted:Especially once you realize most of his supporting cast have done worse when they were the same age. But its his reveal that triggers a bunch of pearl clutching. I'd disagree there but it may be because I'm thinking legally. Verus commits felony murder and kidnapping ; his compatriots have defenses -- luna lacks intent, Anne was under duress and in self defense -- but he doesn't, he did it willing ly. Similarly, Dresden always has an out to absolve him of anything really awful - literal demonic influence, etc. There are a *lot* of folks serving life sentences.for basically exactly what Verus did.
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Apr 19, 2018 14:54
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'd disagree there but it may be because I'm thinking legally. Verus commits felony murder and kidnapping ; his compatriots have defenses -- luna lacks intent, Anne was under duress and in self defense -- but he doesn't, he did it willing ly. Similarly, Dresden always has an out to absolve him of anything really awful - literal demonic influence, etc. I mean, if we assume real life legality Verus almost definitely would have walked or served a reduced sentence by turning on the rest. He approached the authorities in an attempt to turn himself in and even save the girl and its only the super hosed way mage society works in those books that he ended up left out in the cold. And Luna and Anne stacked up a lot of bodies between them even if it was without intent/under duress
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Apr 19, 2018 15:23
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Zore posted:Harry on-screen torturing those ghouls is arguably darker than anything Alex ever gets up to. First, the ghouls were ghouls who were killing his students. Second, Harry had the excuse that Lash was loving with him and making him more prone to rages. Harry always has that kind of excuse. Verus, on the other hand, helped murder and kidnap some campers who had done nothing to him, just because he was told to do so. The situations aren't really comparable.
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Apr 19, 2018 17:07
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Being a troubled teen groomed into that by a predatory master manipulator should count for something, I think.
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Apr 19, 2018 17:39
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All the above said, yeah, sorry if I oversold Verus. It's just refreshing to see a character who is angsting about his supposed Dark Past, actually have an actual Real Bad Crime in that past, not just misunderstood good intentions.
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Apr 19, 2018 17:42
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Remind me why it matters who's "darker"?
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Apr 19, 2018 17:43
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Wizchine posted:Remind me why it matters who's "darker"? It doesn't, Imho, except as a matter of personal taste. One of my pet peeves with Dresden is that he's more a creature of angst than of guilt, if that distinction makes sense: he very rarely commits real sins, when he does suffer consequences for his actions it's usually because he is misunderstood, and whenever he does something morally questionable, there is a convenient friend (or even, in later books, a convenient manifestation of the Divine) at hand to pat him on the shoulder and tell him he's still a good person. Verus, he just straight up did a bad thing. He gets called out on it and he suffers for it and he feels real guilt over it. I appreciate a genuinely guilty protagonist.
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Apr 19, 2018 18:10
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