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Daniel Dennett posted:Right and wrong, however, are parts of morality, a peculiar phenomenon that can’t predate a I think Dennett's inquiry into Bicameralism basically explains what Bakker is getting at. However badly he is at providing a coherent and interesting narrative framework to explore the ideas.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:40
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skasion posted:I don’t know if it’s really all in the payoff, but building to “Kellhus wins lol” is less cathartic to me than “Kellhus hubristically doomed civilization and died like a bitch lol” though I imagine some people might disagree. Even nihilism and plot twists have to be set up somehow. No author really gets to turn "Psyche! you thought you were reading utopic upbeat sci-fi, but now it's '120 Days of Sodom' in Space!" on a dime. It amuses me how Black Library's Night Lords trilogy is as unpretentions as it gets (it -knows- it's pulp), but they pull something akin to this off FAR more gracefully. Almost no one is good or even redeemable, but the characters feel real and their empty tragedies, big and small, have meaning to the narrative, even if not to the cold unfeeling universe. And the twist at the ending was delightful in its "Holy poo poo, I don't know f this makes things better or even more grim." So yeah, all in all glad to be done with Bakker. Hopes, as they say, was a mistake.
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Feb 2, 2018 01:43
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I read too much Bakker along with fan theories. It's all extremely dumb.
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Feb 2, 2018 08:50
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The original No-God was the Anasurimbor prince who got buried alive and then mailed off to the Consult, right? The time frame seems to line up roughly and it seems like you need the Anasurimbor gene-seed or whatever to run the No-God’s box. But on the other hand, I thought the guy was secretly Seswatha’s kid. If that’s true then I don’t know how it would work at all.
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Feb 15, 2018 15:29
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skasion posted:The original No-God was the Anasurimbor prince who got buried alive and then mailed off to the Consult, right? The time frame seems to line up roughly and it seems like you need the Anasurimbor gene-seed or whatever to run the No-God’s box. But on the other hand, I thought the guy was secretly Seswatha’s kid. If that’s true then I don’t know how it would work at all. 
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Feb 15, 2018 16:04
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skasion posted:The original No-God was the Anasurimbor prince who got buried alive and then mailed off to the Consult, right? The time frame seems to line up roughly and it seems like you need the Anasurimbor gene-seed or whatever to run the No-God’s box. But on the other hand, I thought the guy was secretly Seswatha’s kid. If that’s true then I don’t know how it would work at all. Yeah all of this is correct I believe. The original Anasurimbor dude being probably Seswatha’s kid doesn’t really fit with what we know about how the No-God works and there isn’t any clear explanation.
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Feb 15, 2018 20:18
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Would’ve been the perfect payoff to Achamian’s dreams to reveal how the No-God is made just in time for Achamian to fail to stop it. Waste of a good plot thread. Bonus points if it involved the Judging Eye and Mimara’s baby.
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Feb 15, 2018 21:52
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General Battuta posted:Waste of a good plot thread. That's basically The Second Apocalypse in capsule form.
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Feb 15, 2018 22:56
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I’m about 3/4 through the first book and I’m having trouble keeping track of anything other than Archamian. Probably has something to do with how I read books. Can someone gimme some cliff notes on what is going on?
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Apr 14, 2018 16:33
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Invalid Validation posted:I’m about 3/4 through the first book and I’m having trouble keeping track of anything other than Archamian. Probably has something to do with how I read books. Can someone gimme some cliff notes on what is going on? I bounced off the first book completely on a first read, so it's not just you. These books are kind of imposing at first, but pretty easy to follow most of the time once you get a handle on them. The main plot of the first trilogy is just a fantasy version of the First Crusade. The Inrithi are the Christians, the Shriah is the Pope, the Fanim are the Muslims, the Nansur are Byzantines, the Scylvendi are Seljuks/somewhat anachronistic Mongols. Two thousand years before all this went down however, there was a gigantically hosed up magic apocalypse to a good ways to the north that almost wiped out human civilization. That's what the prologue was about, and is also what Achamian keeps dreaming about because his order of sorcerers was founded to prevent the recurrence of it. Kellhus' distant ancestors were kings in the north before they got wrapped up in this. Of unclear relevance to all this stuff are the Dunyain, who you can think of as sort of like the Bene Gesserit from Dune, or actually even more like the Bene Tleilax: a secretive sect of complete psychos with insane ambition for the human race, mysterious fancy skills (though not magic), and collective hard-on for planning way ahead. Kellhus is with them, and so was his father before him, and so on, stretching back to the kid from the prologue.
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Apr 14, 2018 16:59
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That helps a little thanks
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Apr 14, 2018 20:58
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skasion posted:I bounced off the first book completely on a first read, so it's not just you. These books are kind of imposing at first, but pretty easy to follow most of the time once you get a handle on them. The main plot of the first trilogy is just a fantasy version of the First Crusade. The Inrithi are the Christians, the Shriah is the Pope, the Fanim are the Muslims, the Nansur are Byzantines, the Scylvendi are Seljuks/somewhat anachronistic Mongols. Two thousand years before all this went down however, there was a gigantically hosed up magic apocalypse to a good ways to the north that almost wiped out human civilization. That's what the prologue was about, and is also what Achamian keeps dreaming about because his order of sorcerers was founded to prevent the recurrence of it. Kellhus' distant ancestors were kings in the north before they got wrapped up in this. Of unclear relevance to all this stuff are the Dunyain, who you can think of as sort of like the Bene Gesserit from Dune, or actually even more like the Bene Tleilax: a secretive sect of complete psychos with insane ambition for the human race, mysterious fancy skills (though not magic), and collective hard-on for planning way ahead. Kellhus is with them, and so was his father before him, and so on, stretching back to the kid from the prologue. You forgot the most important: This is all written very badly.
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Apr 19, 2018 20:34
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:You forgot the most important: It’s no Malazan.
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Apr 19, 2018 21:06
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I'm reading Ferdinand Braudel's The Mediterranean and his vision of the immense labours that made civilization thrive across the sea is much more engaging and existentially harrowing than Bakker's nihilism.
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Apr 19, 2018 21:17
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I'm reading Ferdinand Braudel's The Mediterranean and his vision of the immense labours that made civilization thrive across the sea is much more engaging and existentially harrowing than Bakker's nihilism. Never heard of it, but it sounds cool. I will give it a try as soon as I finish what I am currently reading, a genuinely really terrible trilogy by one NK Jemisin. It’s like Bakker if he were a teenage girl.
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Apr 19, 2018 21:21
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BravestOfTheLamps posted:I'm reading Ferdinand Braudel's The Mediterranean and his vision of the immense labours that made civilization thrive across the sea is much more engaging and existentially harrowing than Bakker's nihilism. But does it have a formerly good man eating/loving a livem radioactive, agonising leper that used to be his friend, on a journey to achieve nothing?
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Apr 19, 2018 21:44
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Sephyr posted:But does it have a formerly good man eating/loving a livem radioactive, agonising leper that used to be his friend, on a journey to achieve nothing? Don’t forget the cunny-liking dragon
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Apr 19, 2018 21:48
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The slog of slogs was still genuinely great but everything after was bad.
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Apr 19, 2018 22:51
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skasion posted:Don’t forget the cunny-liking dragon Like I ever could. It was like a finely-crafted literary kick to my junk. "Hey, this actually has some stakes and motion to it. Badly injured megawitch against evil dragon! Achamian facing off against a crabby dragon was also the high point of the other b...oh wait, it's ruined." It even gets solved off-camera, for added pointlesness.
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Apr 19, 2018 23:01
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Sephyr posted:But does it have a formerly good man eating/loving a livem radioactive, agonising leper that used to be his friend, on a journey to achieve nothing? Which book in the series is that one? Is that the one that makes a point about the poop smell? I haven't done a reread in a while, and I don't feel like hate-reading the last book.
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Apr 20, 2018 01:46
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skasion posted:I will give it a try as soon as I finish what I am currently reading, a genuinely really terrible trilogy by one NK Jemisin. It’s like Bakker if he were a teenage girl. Ah, I know that: It's called Her Entire Oeuvre.
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Apr 20, 2018 04:52
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The truest slog of slogs is any Esmenet chapter in the latter trilogy.
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Apr 20, 2018 07:03
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"Which book in the series is that one?" The Unholy Consult. Poor Proyas....  "I will give it a try as soon as I finish what I am currently reading, a genuinely really terrible trilogy by one NK Jemisin. It’s like Bakker if he were a teenage girl." Is that the Inheritance Trilogy? I heard not good things about that. Broken Earth, OTOH, is said to be amazing. Pleiades fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Apr 20, 2018 |
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Apr 20, 2018 18:33
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The reports are inaccurate.
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Apr 20, 2018 21:03
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It’s Fifth Season etc. They are unmitigatedly pretentious crap with some of the worst-chosen and most obnoxiously incessant fantasy swear words I have ever read.
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Apr 20, 2018 22:02
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skasion posted:It’s Fifth Season etc. They are unmitigatedly pretentious crap with some of the worst-chosen and most obnoxiously incessant fantasy swear words I have ever read. Yes. Fooled me with the first one, which had actually an okay narrative structure, but the second was just garbage.
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Apr 20, 2018 22:26
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skasion posted:It’s Fifth Season etc. They are unmitigatedly pretentious crap with some of the worst-chosen and most obnoxiously incessant fantasy swear words I have ever read. Oh god please share. I consider myself quite the connoisseur of fantasy swears.
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Apr 20, 2018 22:57
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Can we talk about loving radioactive people again? I think that's more fun. And I think Saubon would have been more fitting than Sibuwal.
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Apr 20, 2018 23:48
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Pleiades posted:Can we talk about loving radioactive people again? I think that's more fun. I was totally onboard with the ordeal loving and eating each other except: a) Licking the pus from a radioactive lepers sores is about seven steps too far into edgelord territory b) There are no actual consequences to it, and it seems the cure for sranc-meat-induced rapeyness is just to...rape and eat a bunch of people. And then you're fine. It's the most adolescent part of the series - he wants to have all sorts of terrible atrocities, but he's unwilling to actually deal with the consequences of them. He also dangles the cannibalism in front of the reader for ages, and then we're supposed to act surprised when they start eating each other, even though gnawing on sranc with a visible erection is A-OK!
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Apr 20, 2018 23:58
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"he's unwilling to actually deal with the consequences of them." Unless, of course, it's Proyas. He didn't seem to have a problem with making HIM pay.   Beyond that, you're right. I don't recall anyone else facing the consequences. Not even radiation sickness as they were eating radioactive people. Pleiades fucked around with this message at 02:22 on Apr 21, 2018 |
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Apr 21, 2018 02:19
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Pleiades posted:
Don't think that is how it works. The last two books really show what a good editor can do for you. Mostly the cannibalism goes on for far too long. The idea that he split the book so he could put more of that in there is mind-boggling.
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Apr 21, 2018 03:22
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genericnick posted:Don't think that is how it works. That is, in fact, how it works. Radiation knocks neutrons and protons out of the neucleus, and formerly stable atoms become radioactive as they decay further. It’s why water that was used to cool reactors isn’t safe to dump into rivers.
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Apr 21, 2018 04:39
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wellwhoopdedooo posted:That is, in fact, how it works. Radiation knocks neutrons and protons out of the neucleus, and formerly stable atoms become radioactive as they decay further. It’s why water that was used to cool reactors isn’t safe to dump into rivers. I'm pretty sure the dosis you get from being downwind when the nuke goes off is quite a bit more intense then what you'd find in the human body after a few days. Also most of the activation of other material is caused by neutrons and I doubt you really have to worry about that much if the target is still walking. Edit: What I'm saying is that eating radiation Lepers is mostly a long term health risk. genericnick fucked around with this message at 05:12 on Apr 21, 2018 |
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Apr 21, 2018 05:05
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The true greatness of Bakker will be realized once WWIII hits.
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Apr 21, 2018 05:26
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genericnick posted:I'm pretty sure the dosis you get from being downwind when the nuke goes off is quite a bit more intense then what you'd find in the human body after a few days. Also most of the activation of other material is caused by neutrons and I doubt you really have to worry about that much if the target is still walking. Yeah it's a story, so you're always going to be disappointed if you dig deep enough. My point was basically, I agree with the original poster: Bakker missed a plot beat in not making radiation poisoning contaigous. It would have made it even more horrific (and seriously, the reality of radiation poisoning is loving horrific). My friend who made a ton of money in the '90s as an asbestos remover literally can't be buried in a normal grave, or even be cremated through conventional means. He has breathed so much of it, according to the law his corpse will be classified a biohazard, and must be disposed of by the federal government in a place like Yucca mountain. He made $80k a year for five straight years in his twenties though, so, worth it!
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Apr 21, 2018 05:27
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Strom Cuzewon posted:b) There are no actual consequences to it, and it seems the cure for sranc-meat-induced rapeyness is just to...rape and eat a bunch of people. And then you're fine. I mean, on the one hand, this is a series where a major foundational premise is that Hell is Actually Real and is infinitely more horrible than anything you could ever imagine, and everyone who took part in that atrocity is almost certainly now going there if they weren't already, so there's that for consequences and for not being fine. On the other hand, you probably meant that Bakker mostly doesn't write the characters meaningfully confronting it instead of going 'welp, mistakes were made, back to the whole conquering Golgotterath thing.' Which, yeah, you have a point.
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Apr 21, 2018 06:01
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I feel he missed a lot of plot beats in the last two books. The whole cannibalism thing starting with eating Sranc didn't really go anywhere much. Or rather it went everywhere but never arrived.
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Apr 21, 2018 06:27
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JerryLee posted:
Exactly this. Kelhus arrives, there's some ritual sacrifice, everything goes back to normal, book is forever known as "that one with the radioactive leper rape".
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Apr 21, 2018 11:37
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Cardiac posted:The true greatness of Bakker will be realized once WWIII hits. This speaks to me.
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Apr 21, 2018 12:36
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JerryLee posted:I mean, on the one hand, this is a series where a major foundational premise is that Hell is Actually Real and is infinitely more horrible than anything you could ever imagine, and everyone who took part in that atrocity is almost certainly now going there if they weren't already, so there's that for consequences and for not being fine. Actually, IIRC, the vast majority of the Ordeal is damned, even those who chose not to participate. And I suspect that some of them were damned long before the Gay Cannibal Holocaust because it's all too easy to be damned on that world. Even Serwe is said to be there.
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Apr 21, 2018 16:14
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