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He didn't, but it's pretty much impossible for him to have not known, at least on some subconscious level, that Garak was absolutely capable of what he did, and that he'd absolutely do it, knowing what the stakes were not only for the Alpha Quadrant, but for Cardassia, as well. I believe Sisko when he says he didn't want Garak to do it, but you don't have to be lying intentionally to lie to yourself.
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Apr 24, 2018 16:20
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:I believe that to be Garak's rationale, not Sisko's. Garak is all "You knew I was going to do this! You asked for it!" but really Sisko didn't. ...or did he? Well, that's what makes it a thought-provoking episode. It's all about the nature of personal responsibility in your position of influence and how guilty each individual can be. It certainly doesn't provide any one answer, but it pushes the idea of Sisko being guilty hard enough to demand that the viewer ask these questions.
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Apr 24, 2018 16:22
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Personally I blame the romulan. He should have just pretended to accept the evidence and then report his findings. Or use a drat phone before hopping on his ship. You people are supposed to be good at this game
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Apr 24, 2018 16:30
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Windows 98 posted:God drat S6 of DS9 is good. I just finished the whole 6 parter series where it ends with them taking DS9 back. That was probably the best Trek I’ve seen yet. It had it all, long conference room arguments, Odo learning more about himself, espionage, Rom being an unlikely hero, Quark more or less saving the quadrant by blasting two guards with phasers, massive space battles, Dukat getting his comeuppance even if it’s a bit of a downer. Wow. That arc was also pivotal for its use of special effects. It marked the last major usage of physical models of ships in Star Trek and the first major use of CGI ships. DS9 ships are mostly CGI from that point onwards.
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Apr 24, 2018 16:38
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The Bloop posted:Sisko didn't really have a lot of choices about where to get genuine Cardassian security rods or whatever. He has one possible Cardassian to choose from who is also ambiguously connected to nefarious things or.... nobody. It was exactly what he wanted. He didn't have to spell it out for Garak and he wasn't supposed to spell it out for the audience because he wasn't willing to admit to himself that he went to Garak because he knew Garak would do exactly what Sisko needed him to do. That’s what the episode is about. -I can’t do it, it’s wrong. -I’ll recruit a guy I know will do it and but only ask him to do something much more mundane. -Guy does exactly what I really wanted him to do. -I am happy with this. I can live with it. Zesty fucked around with this message at 16:50 on Apr 24, 2018 |
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Apr 24, 2018 16:46
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Plotac 75 posted:...what's the goon consensus on Continues? ... It's good. If you like TOS you'll like Continues. It's also, IMO, the only fan project that actually feels like part of the series.
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Apr 24, 2018 16:46
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Star Trek Continues is great. I would definitely recommend it if you're a TOS fan. Two episodes in particular that I think are especially good: Fairest of Them All, a sequel to Mirror, Mirror; and of course the last two episodes, which provide a real ending to the TOS era that the show never got in its original run. As for TOS being very sixties: my unpopular opinion is that TOS is better - much better, in my opinion - about gender equality than the early Bond movies. It's true that the Connery-era Bond films and Star Trek are two separate things, but they're contemporaneous, and I think the Connery films are a better example of '60s sexism than Star Trek.
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Apr 24, 2018 16:53
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Zesty posted:It was exactly what he wanted. He didn't have to spell it out for Garak and he wasn't supposed to spell it out for the audience because he wasn't willing to admit to himself that he went to Garak because he knew Garak would do exactly what Sisko needed him to do. All I'm saying is that yeah he knew Garak was going to do things, but it wasn't explicitly his plan and he genuinely hoped Plan A would work. The deleted log entry was him coming to grips with it having been an implicit contingency all along. He couldn't make it his explicit plan, and when it all went down he was mad at himself, Garak, and the world. But he could live with it. So we probably agree and I was probably unclear earlier.
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Apr 24, 2018 16:53
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Zesty posted:It was exactly what he wanted. He didn't have to spell it out for Garak and he wasn't supposed to spell it out for the audience because he wasn't willing to admit to himself that he went to Garak because he knew Garak would do exactly what Sisko needed him to do. Maybe subconsciously Sisko wants this, but saying that he is 'happy' with the result is way off base and you should probably watch the episode again.
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Apr 24, 2018 16:54
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Don’t forget the forger guy was also murdered by Garak.
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Apr 24, 2018 16:57
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Also Sisko was murdered by Garak as the last remaining witness, then he killed himself.
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Apr 24, 2018 16:59
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Peachfart posted:Hurr durr Okay.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:09
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Zesty posted:Okay. Man, my favorite part of In The Pale Moonlight is the part at the end where Sisko breaks into a big grin and then starts laughing joyfully.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:14
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Troi was written for people like you.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:17
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Peachfart posted:Man, my favorite part of In The Pale Moonlight is the part at the end where Sisko breaks into a big grin and then starts laughing joyfully. Best use of "end of episode comedy clarinet sting" in all of Star Trek, IMO.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:21
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Zesty posted:It was exactly what he wanted. He didn't have to spell it out for Garak and he wasn't supposed to spell it out for the audience because he wasn't willing to admit to himself that he went to Garak because he knew Garak would do exactly what Sisko needed him to do.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:23
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Jeez. I don’t know why you think it’s a good episode with such a surface level examination. It’s like people who think Walter White is the good guy.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:30
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Peachfart posted:Man, my favorite part of In The Pale Moonlight is the part at the end where Sisko breaks into a big grin and then starts laughing joyfully. My favorite part is right after that, when he literally dances with the devil.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:30
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Personally I blame the romulan. He should have just pretended to accept the evidence and then report his findings. Or use a drat phone before hopping on his ship. You people are supposed to be good at this game Yeah, this part is hilariously insane. You don't call out fabricated intelligence to the face of the guy that delivered it to you during a war, especially if it's one of your usual adversaries, and expect to not get murdered on the way out the door. Say hmm very interesting, I'll need to consult with my government, then discredit your enemy publicly from a safe distance.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:45
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Windows 98 posted:God drat S6 of DS9 is good. I just finished the whole 6 parter series where it ends with them taking DS9 back. That was probably the best Trek I’ve seen yet. It had it all, long conference room arguments, Odo learning more about himself, espionage, Rom being an unlikely hero, Quark more or less saving the quadrant by blasting two guards with phasers, massive space battles, Dukat getting his comeuppance even if it’s a bit of a downer. Wow. I remember watching that when it was first on and feeling like the station was occupied for ages Watching it back later on DVD it seemed so much less impactful than it did then.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:47
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Yeah I remember telling my wife "oh yeah there's like a whole season where ds9 is occupied" but then I realized it was only a few episodes. If it was made today it would have been a full season.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:51
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Sash! posted:Yeah, this part is hilariously insane. Tbf this is the Federation he was dealing with. A Picard or a Janeway would have let him walk.
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Apr 24, 2018 17:51
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Congratulations on being the one romulan to ever trust a federation officer
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Apr 24, 2018 17:53
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Sir Lemming posted:My favorite part is right after that, when he literally dances with the devil. https://youtu.be/O6T2nRAazrY
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Apr 24, 2018 17:53
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Maera Sior posted:How did you miss the entire framing device this badly? Sisko is trying to figure where things went wrong and if he can live with keeping quiet. That's the entire purpose of retelling and then deleting it. Absolutely. Sisko is furious with Garak, even going so far as to assault him after he realizes the senator has been killed. There is no part of him that is happy with the outcome. Or, to put it more accurately, he accepts the outcome, but hates the methods. And yes, there was a part of Sisko thinking "I will use Garak because he will do the things I can't do". But the shifty things he thought Garak would do involve making deals with criminal forgers, not murdering Romulan senators. That is clear from the episode, and anyone saying different is a Section 31 poopy head...
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Apr 24, 2018 17:58
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A.I. Borgland Corp posted:Congratulations on being the one romulan to ever trust a federation officer 
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Apr 24, 2018 18:01
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Windows 98 posted:God drat S6 of DS9 is good. I just finished the whole 6 parter series where it ends with them taking DS9 back. That was probably the best Trek I’ve seen yet. It had it all, long conference room arguments, Odo learning more about himself, espionage, Rom being an unlikely hero, Quark more or less saving the quadrant by blasting two guards with phasers, massive space battles, Dukat getting his comeuppance even if it’s a bit of a downer. Wow. With all the big events in the first 6 episodes of season 6 it's still kind of weird to me that the smaller events in "Rocks and Shoals" remains my favorite of them, and one of my favorite episodes of the entire show. The overall plot on the planet is the kind of story that could have been done at any point after the Jem Hadar are introduced but the way it ties the theme of duty together with Kira back on the station - her realization that a passive acceptance of occupation is just as bad as active collaboration - is wonderfully done. The actor who played Keevan and the Jem Hadar leader were great guest stars. Though any time Dukat and Weyoun, in all 6 episodes, are on screen and not-so-subtly trying to undermine each other is a treat. Dukat's conversation with him where they discuss what to do with Earth if they win the war is the best encapsulation of his character. Kibayasu fucked around with this message at 18:15 on Apr 24, 2018 |
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Apr 24, 2018 18:12
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1000 Brown M and Ms posted:You're not wrong. Hell, even in the early days of TNG they hadn't decided whether or not it was a direct sequel or just a reboot of the same premise. Eh. They had Data give Admiral McCoy a tour of the ship, which was about the most 'pass the torch' they did until Gene died... from what I gather they deliberately avoided callbacks or long-lost characters' relatives until TNG had stood on its own two feet and bringing Spock back would be meaningful. Credit where it's due, they deliberately and knowingly jumped hundreds of years into the future to make a New Trek instead of playing it safe with TOS 1.5, and the results speak for themselves.
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Apr 24, 2018 18:13
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so I could say that I finally figured out what this god damned cube is doing. Get well Lowtax.
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Sash! posted:Yeah, this part is hilariously insane. That was dumb on his part but this probably wouldn't have worked anyway. Garak was doubtful enough that his forgery would pass all the scrutiny the Romulan government could bring to bear on it; it's likely murdering the senator in an explosion that damages the data crystal enough to hide the forgery was Plan A.
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Apr 24, 2018 18:15
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I can see the arguments made about Sisko's overall motivation, what he wanted the plan to be or not, but anything that Garak did was almost certainly what Garak was going to do regardless of what happened. There would be too many possibilities - further examination revealing the fake evidence, the forger talking - for him to do otherwise.
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Apr 24, 2018 18:18
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skasion posted:Tbf this is the Federation he was dealing with. A Picard or a Janeway would have let him walk. Even so, it's still not a very Romulan plan. He sucks at the cloak and dagger.
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Apr 24, 2018 18:19
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WampaLord posted:This is still why I have a hard time trying to watch TOS, it's so so dated and the casual sexism really flies at you fast and loose. Honestly I feel like TOS is weird on this topic even for 1967
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Apr 24, 2018 18:22
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dont even fink about it posted:Honestly I feel like TOS is weird on this topic even for 1967 Like was mentioned before if anything TOS is quite progressive for the time. I dunno if it's because the UK made shitloads of shows in the 60s and liked to repeat them but most stuff from the 60s was still on TV when I was young in the 80s and TOS was always a standout as being less horrendous. I say that as someone who can't watch loads of things I used to enjoy because of how horrendously sexist they are.
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Apr 24, 2018 18:30
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Windows 98 posted:God drat S6 of DS9 is good. I just finished the whole 6 parter series where it ends with them taking DS9 back. That was probably the best Trek I’ve seen yet. It had it all, long conference room arguments, Odo learning more about himself, espionage, Rom being an unlikely hero, Quark more or less saving the quadrant by blasting two guards with phasers, massive space battles, Dukat getting his comeuppance even if it’s a bit of a downer. Wow. DS9 owns so hard, I think I'm feeling the itch to rewatch it again.
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Apr 24, 2018 19:36
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Taear posted:Like was mentioned before if anything TOS is quite progressive for the time. I agree, but I also think sexism took not necessarily worse, but different forms in the US and the UK. I'm struggling to word how but I think in a sense of like... making women seem very fragile?
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Apr 24, 2018 19:48
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spincube posted:Eh. They had Data give Admiral McCoy a tour of the ship, which was about the most 'pass the torch' they did until Gene died... from what I gather they deliberately avoided callbacks or long-lost characters' relatives until TNG had stood on its own two feet and bringing Spock back would be meaningful. What 1000 Brown M and M's was getting is that there's a subtle difference between "TNG takes place in TOS's future" and "TNG takes place in a timeline where at least some of the elements of TOS were in the past history of TNG, but it's uncertain how much of TOS is in that past history of TNG."
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Apr 24, 2018 19:56
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Plotac 75 posted:Off on a "featuring Romulan Commander" sidetrack, what's the goon consensus on Continues? I've been trying to decide whether to watch that or the animated series between TOS and TMP, because I'm punishing myself by watching a continuous Trek from Enterprise to Voyager. It's good and you should watch it.
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Apr 24, 2018 20:53
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That's why you came to me, isn't it, Captain? Because you knew I could do those things that you weren't capable of doing.
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Apr 24, 2018 21:09
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Is continues just on YouTube or do you have to go to
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Apr 24, 2018 21:18
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Free on their website, startrekcontinues.com . E: they even have Blu-ray images for download.
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Apr 24, 2018 21:26
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