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Yeah the weird biped dragon is the only enemy that's strictly animation only I can remember. Everything else gets either a cast bar, aoe markers or both I think? The timing on some is extremely dumb, but I'm sure that's more of a netcode limitation than something else. For a real simple test of how bad it is, have a friend run alongside your character while you're both running straight over some field, see how far behind you they are on your screen (it's pretty drat far).
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Apr 25, 2018 17:54
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Mymla posted:You don't, so you just dodge it as quickly as possible. And off the top of my head I can think of exactly one such attack, the knockback ghost in phantom train, they're extremely rare in this game. And I'm also not sure how your proposed fix to a problem that does not exist would do anything to change these edge cases. Here's the reasoning for my issue and why I hate it. It's janky garbage that's completely counter-intuitive if you play literally any other game ever until someone goes "Uh actually you got hit 5 seconds ago because it's tied to the castbar and marker". Like I have never ever played another non turn-based game where the damage and effects are not tied to the animation.
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Apr 25, 2018 17:56
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Truga posted:Yeah the weird biped dragon is the only enemy that's strictly animation only I can remember. Everything else gets either a cast bar, aoe markers or both I think? The timing on some is extremely dumb, but I'm sure that's more of a netcode limitation than something else. For a real simple test of how bad it is, have a friend run alongside your character while you're both running straight over some field, see how far behind you they are on your screen (it's pretty drat far). I'm pretty sure this is a problem in every single MMO, though. I remember in WoW people were bawling on ventrilo because they WERE TOTALLY OUT OF THAT MAN I RAN WITH EVERYONE ELSE, and everyone else has to explain that you have to start moving as soon as the ability starts telegraphing, so that you're running way ahead of everyone else on your screen. Chucat posted:Here's the reasoning for my issue and why I hate it. This is a you problem, not a game problem. I was slightly confused by it as well at first, but I figured it out around the time I killed my third funguar in central shroud.
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Apr 25, 2018 17:57
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Chucat posted:Here's the reasoning for my issue and why I hate it. Have you never played a multiplayer fps?
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Apr 25, 2018 17:58
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Solo Wing Pixy posted:Also, I’m supposed to be the thread’s negative person. I don’t understand why, if you hate how the game has played and been structured since 2.0, you’d still be playing it instead of jumping to another perfectly serviceable MMO like Guild Wars 2. Unless it’s the goon hate fetish or something driving y’all. I don't think anybody here really hates the game so much as they're just frustrated seeing opportunities to improve something they love get passed up in favor of things that don't seem nearly as valuable or smart. Even if the status quo was maintained perfectly, people would be a bit bummed that the devs weren't making things better and better; instead we've got slashed patch content in favor of things people don't like. Thus, lots of frustration. Oxyclean posted:I think one of the things that can come up to play is when there's just some legit ol' latnency, and will leave the danger zone "on time" on their end, but too late server-side because of latency. It's usually those situations where you're twenty miles away and still get hit. Even accounting for perfect latency, there's just a delay between the moment the game registers if you're in an AoE or not and the moment the actual impact of the attack goes off. Using Titan as an example, there's a solid second or so between the cast bar finishing (and the AoE indicator vanishing) and Titan lurching forward to punch the ground. Even with zero ping you can be a foot inside the AoE when it completes, and be very far away by the time the actual graphics of the attack go off. It makes sense from a mechanical clarity and netcode point of view, but hoo boy is it intensely frustrating when it happens. It doesn't bother me too much because XIV is an MMO and not a super-tight action game, but there have definitely been times where I've said, "Oh come ON that was nowhere near me!"
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Apr 25, 2018 18:00
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hobbesmaster posted:Have you never played a multiplayer fps? Yes I played TF2, I remember when the Demoman shot a grenade at me and because I was in his crosshair when he pressed the shoot button the grenade hit me even though I was nowhere near where it landed.
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Apr 25, 2018 18:01
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Mymla posted:I'm pretty sure this is a problem in every single MMO, though. I remember in WoW people were bawling on ventrilo because they WERE TOTALLY OUT OF THAT MAN I RAN WITH EVERYONE ELSE, and everyone else has to explain that you have to start moving as soon as the ability starts telegraphing, so that you're running way ahead of everyone else on your screen. Eve online "fixed" it by having the lag also show up client side, which is about as fun as you can imagine  Guild wars 2 somehow managed a netcode that's not literally made for the 90s and it seems to work out fine even for euros that play with goons on us servers, so apparently it can be done, though. hobbesmaster posted:Have you never played a multiplayer fps? I played quake 2 on 14400 and 33600 modems for a couple years and this game at <30 ping somehow feels sillier at times
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Apr 25, 2018 18:04
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Chucat posted:Yes I played TF2, I remember when the Demoman shot a grenade at me and because I was in his crosshair when he pressed the shoot button the grenade hit me even though I was nowhere near where it landed. What about tracer rounds for hitscan weapons
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Apr 25, 2018 18:16
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Mr. Nice! posted:There are a handful, but nothing is complicated and it is very clear what will happen. Sephirot, for example, no casts the tank buster but does a long drawn out animation in the process. Ah, I haven't tanked or healed Sephirot so I hadn't seen it. But I think that this discussion is happening shows that attacks like this are particularly rare and if they do exist they are telegraphed, learning the idiosyncrasies of the game is part of the fun I feel, so knowing that something hits after its cast bar ends is probably something you should know?
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Apr 25, 2018 18:16
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Personally I think it's awesome when you avoid the actual cast, and you can go in pounding during a flashy dbzesque light show animation without a scratch
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Apr 25, 2018 18:17
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Syncing up the animations to the markers to make combat feel more responsive would be objectively a good thing.
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Apr 25, 2018 18:36
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Hra Mormo posted:Syncing up the animations to the markers to make combat feel more responsive would be objectively a good thing. Yeah, and they'd have to do nothing to the netcode with this solution, just timing the animation to start playing before the cast bar is finished so that it lines up.
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Apr 25, 2018 18:39
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edit: hmm thread bad
Die Sexmonster! fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Apr 25, 2018 |
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Apr 25, 2018 18:41
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Chucat posted:I mean I'm probably the worst person to ask since I'd want the gameplay/engine side of the game rebuilt entirely from the ground up. So stuff like damage not being tied to the animation needs to go, every fight feeling like doing a dance while doing your constant, samey rotation. There's no "forbidden section" of your keyboard you open up when you need to push DPS (at least for a Black Mage). The game being so slow that I alt-tab as often as I can etc etc Do you ever just sit back and think about why you place this game in the first place?
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Apr 25, 2018 18:47
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Hra Mormo posted:Syncing up the animations to the markers to make combat feel more responsive would be objectively a good thing. I mean I agree but that's not what Chucat is talking about? They want to remove snapshotting on cast end and make the animation/particle effect the hit box, which is uh....untenable at best. A latency nightmare at worst.
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Apr 25, 2018 18:47
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KoB posted:Do you ever just sit back and think about why you place this game in the first place? I said it's so my house doesn't blow up.
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Apr 25, 2018 18:49
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I don’t see how it’d gently caress anything up to sync animations to cast bars better? Like if you’re in Europe then youd dodge according to the cast bar as usual while the boss does an awkwardly timed animation.
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Apr 25, 2018 18:50
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I mean I agree but that's not what Chucat is talking about? They want to remove snapshotting on cast end and make the animation/particle effect the hit box, which is uh....untenable at best. A latency nightmare at worst. It's almost like I said "I'm the worst person to ask because I'd want the entire gameplay and engine side rebuilt from the ground up." Oh wait, that's LITERALLY what I said. I said "It'd be nice if they did this thing that'd require a ton of hard work to do" and I get people jumping down my throat about how hard it would be to do? That's why I qualified my statement with that.
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Apr 25, 2018 18:51
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Xun posted:I don’t see how it’d gently caress anything up to sync animations to cast bars better? Like if you’re in Europe then youd dodge according to the cast bar as usual while the boss does an awkwardly timed animation. Yeah, people are saying that it'd still snapshot at the end of the cast bar, but the animation would play as the cast bar resolves instead of shortly afterwards, so everything feels snappy.
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Apr 25, 2018 18:54
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Chucat posted:It's almost like I said "I'm the worst person to ask because I'd want the entire gameplay and engine side rebuilt from the ground up." I'm jumping down your throat not because it would be hard to do, but because it would be an extremely terrible change to make.
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Apr 25, 2018 19:00
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at this point I assume tweaking any underlying system would make the game become sentient, at which point it would read balmung's chatlogs and become skynet e: not saying that's a bad thing
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Apr 25, 2018 19:02
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Mymla posted:I'm jumping down your throat not because it would be hard to do, but because it would be an extremely terrible change to make. Why is some pie in the sky change where animation is tied to damage and latency doesn't exist a terrible change? I legitimately don't understand why you're being so hostile about this.
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Apr 25, 2018 19:05
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The only attacks that have no cast bar, no AoE marker, and no wind up animation are cleaves. The generally accepted way to avoid these is to just not stand in front of the boss if you are not the tank. I can sympathize a bit with thinking it's weird that aoe markers are more important than animations for timing when you need to dodge. It's not something that's all that hard to get accustomed to though.
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Apr 25, 2018 19:06
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Chucat posted:It's almost like I said "I'm the worst person to ask because I'd want the entire gameplay and engine side rebuilt from the ground up." I appreciate you admitting you have a dumb idea that's largely unfeasible , that doesn't save it from criticism. World War Mammories posted:at this point I assume tweaking any underlying system would make the game become sentient, at which point it would read balmung's chatlogs and become skynet Worse it'd become a horny AI with the dumbest fetishes.
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Apr 25, 2018 19:07
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:I appreciate you admitting you have a dumb idea that's largely unfeasible , that doesn't save it from criticism. How is the idea stupid? How is a cast bar filling up at the same time the animation goes off stupid?
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Apr 25, 2018 19:10
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Chucat posted:Why is some pie in the sky change where animation is tied to damage and latency doesn't exist a terrible change? I legitimately don't understand why you're being so hostile about this. Because I'm having to listen to you whine ever raid night about how poo poo the game is because you're getting hit by easily avoidable mechanics because you apparently still haven't figured out how the basic mechanics of this game works.
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Apr 25, 2018 19:12
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Chucat posted:How is the idea stupid? How is a cast bar filling up at the same time the animation goes off stupid? The post you quoted saying that you agreed with (and your original argument) wasn't about that at all? ZenMasterBullshit posted:I mean I agree but that's not what Chucat is talking about? They want to remove snapshotting on cast end and make the animation/particle effect the hit box, which is uh....untenable at best. A latency nightmare at worst. I even said "Yeah it would be cool to better sync the animation to the cast bar." but that's not what you were originally arguing for. You want the animation to be tied to the damage, IE the animation to be the actual hitbox, which is a hilariously dumb idea because latency exists. This isn't a 1 on 1, peer-to-peer connection fighter, it's 8+ people connection to a server then back. On top of that it's widly dumb because all that would do is change the window of when you should move by a fraction of a second. It'd be a rework and massive technical retooling for...basically no pay off? Other than your verisimilitude and inability to get used to how this game plays because it doesn't play like other games you play. Play. ZenMasterBullshit fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Apr 25, 2018 |
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Apr 25, 2018 19:17
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Mymla posted:Because I'm having to listen to you whine ever raid night about how poo poo the game is because you're getting hit by easily avoidable mechanics because you apparently still haven't figured out how the basic mechanics of this game works. Oh okay, are we doing this now?
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Apr 25, 2018 19:17
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The point was never "I can't avoid things because I watch for animations and not cast bars." The point was always, "It's kinda weird that the animation is delayed so much after cast bar completion that you can visually be clear of the attack by a mile and still get smacked." Which is a legitimate criticism because it is weird, despite making some amount of sense from a netcode / clarity point of view. This isn't that big of a deal, there's no need to get so cranky over it. 
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Apr 25, 2018 19:20
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Mymla posted:Because I'm having to listen to you whine ever raid night about how poo poo the game is because you're getting hit by easily avoidable mechanics because you apparently still haven't figured out how the basic mechanics of this game works. I mean from their posts it seems they play BLM so I dunno why they're worried about dodging poo poo anyway. Tank the hits you live, tp to better timed allies for when you cant.
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Apr 25, 2018 19:23
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Chucat posted:How is the idea stupid? How is a cast bar filling up at the same time the animation goes off stupid? The cast bars are probably tied to a synchronized server based event that relies on a callback. The animations are probably purely client side and unsynched. This allows the casting of abilities to be seen by the group as the same event at the same time and ensures that all mechanics play smoothly and according to script. Animations clientside means that the boss does not jitter, slide around or clip their animations(as much).
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Apr 25, 2018 19:27
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Level 80 BLM skill should just a red wagon they sit in that gets tethered to the healer.
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Apr 25, 2018 19:28
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Head Hit Keyboard posted:Is there even a dodgeable mechanic in this game that doesn't have one of these two things? I can't think of a single one. Some of the Optical Sights in A11s are like that. There's no circle and the actual spell that hits you is cast by invisible actors.They did say they learned their lesson, though. Also, I would guess that the cast bar doesn't finish when Titan's fist hits the ground because that would mean he starts the animation before the cast finishes, and the system they have in place makes that difficult, if not impossible.
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Apr 25, 2018 19:28
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It might have something to do with their weird sequential damage resolve thing, which is easiest demonstrated by pulling 30 mobs in unsynced Sastasha and the aoe'ing them all at once. They all get hit / die one after the other. I'm guessing Boss / Mob aoe hit delay on the party is there for some technical reason like giving the hits time to resolve first before "delivering" them onto the players all at once, so things like party wipes actually hit the entire party at once and don't potentially confuse / mess up triggers related to that.
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Apr 25, 2018 19:32
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Coming from ESO, the way AOE's charge and fire in this game is indeed weird and off-putting at first. Takes some getting used to, but it's not horrible.
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Apr 25, 2018 19:44
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Oxyclean posted:Level 80 BLM skill should just a red wagon they sit in that gets tethered to the healer. Don't toy with my heart like this
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Apr 25, 2018 19:57
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i've totally had bosses die as the enrage cast was killing half the party, while leaving the other half alive, though
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Apr 25, 2018 19:58
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Reiterpallasch posted:i've totally had bosses die as the enrage cast was killing half the party, while leaving the other half alive, though it's also funny when it's throttle killing 6 out of 7 of us and then our warrior comes out looking confused at why only he and the dragoon are alive.
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Apr 25, 2018 20:12
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Chucat posted:Why is some pie in the sky change where animation is tied to damage and latency doesn't exist a terrible change? I legitimately don't understand why you're being so hostile about this. Either attacks are processed serverside in which case every now and then if you run into some lag you're gonna get hit by some stuff you thought you dodged or attacks are processed entirely clientside (because otherwise you introduce client-server latency) in which case you're advocating for a completely foolish approach that has never gone wrong in any online game ever, no not at all. Additionally, the current system right now is a binary yes/no "was the player in X area at Y time". Tying it to animation means that an attack that consists of one of those checks now has to perform that check for every frame of its animation, which will slow everything down. Your solution doesn't remove the effect of latency: it multiplies it. If your annoyance is how you can get hit by stuff you thought you dodged, then whether it's because you thought you walked out of a glowy spot on the floor before a little bar finished filling up on top your screen or because you thought you walked away from a stream of rocks heading at you, you're still going to have the same problem because that sort of thing can only be minimized, not eliminated.
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Apr 25, 2018 20:17
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Rainuwastaken posted:The point was never "I can't avoid things because I watch for animations and not cast bars." The point was always, "It's kinda weird that the animation is delayed so much after cast bar completion that you can visually be clear of the attack by a mile and still get smacked." Which is a legitimate criticism because it is weird, despite making some amount of sense from a netcode / clarity point of view. Yeah it's literally this, thank you.
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Apr 25, 2018 20:20
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