|
Oxyclean posted:Level 80 BLM skill should just a red wagon they sit in that gets tethered to the healer. My actual pie in the sky idea is a BLM rework that doubles down on being jerk that never moves, giving you abilities to just absorb damage instead.
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:22
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 20:45 |
|
|
Relax Or DIE posted:My actual pie in the sky idea is a BLM rework that doubles down on being jerk that never moves, giving you abilities to just absorb damage instead. they had that and it was super dumb.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:30
|
|
|
I would love it if they just gave BLM a tank-style immunity. Make it so that it only works when you're in your magic circle for thematic reasons or whatever.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:32
|
|
|
I don't remember the exact details but manaward used to be like that and was changed in heavensward
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:39
|
|
|
Both BLM and NIN used to have "immunity" skills, they removed/changed them since it was hilariously unbalanced in certain encounters, it was basically a "skip next mechanic" button.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:40
|
|
|
Mymla posted:Because I'm having to listen to you whine ever raid night about how poo poo the game is because you're getting hit by easily avoidable mechanics because you apparently still haven't figured out how the basic mechanics of this game works. Can we not? This games netcode is a dumpster fire covered in a runny poo poo. People are literally having to buy VPN subscriptions just to mitigate some (Not all) of the adverse affects of lovely data center placement and basic lack of knowledge about traffic shaping and requirements for a popular MMO. I’ve died to so many yellow circles I was a half dozen paces out of when the cast bar completed that I can’t even count them by taking my shoes off. I’ve also been the guy who was running just fine when half the raid would start blinking linkdead and being blipped out.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:42
|
|
|
Yeah manaward was pretty busted, but BLM played really differently back then anyway. I basically just want them to give BLM living dead.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:45
|
|
|
Rhymenoserous posted:Can we not? This games netcode is a dumpster fire covered in a runny poo poo. People are literally having to buy VPN subscriptions just to mitigate some (Not all) of the adverse affects of lovely data center placement and basic lack of knowledge about traffic shaping and requirements for a popular MMO. I’ve died to so many yellow circles I was a half dozen paces out of when the cast bar completed that I can’t even count them by taking my shoes off. I’ve also been the guy who was running just fine when half the raid would start blinking linkdead and being blipped out. I don't see how a VPN would help? Just because your end point is different doesn't magically make your traffic any faster or do less hops?
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:48
|
|
|
would fixing the aoe indicators actually matter in that case? if your shitass internet says your character is actually standing where you were standing five seconds ago, does it matter if the thing you think you avoided was an orange circle or a giant shiny sword?
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:48
|
|
|
like, the weird discrepancy between cast bars and their animations is a bit visually disruptive at first, but it's how the game works, and changing it won't actually accomplish what people think it will. you will still be hit by aoes that you think you avoided if the problem is with your internet.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:52
|
|
|
The issue is most likely that the game isn't designed for a new animation to start before a cast finishes. There's a casting animation, and a cast complete animation. They could fudge it by making the cast animation itself be the only animation, I suppose, but then you'd get out of sync from lag for other reasons. No matter what you do (in this game) there isn't going to be a direct link between the animation and when the targets are assigned; it'll be a coincidence at best.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:52
|
|
|
Aren't there some attacks that don't use AOE indicators. Like, that cyclops enemy that attacks you real-time if you step into him while he's spinning.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:53
|
|
|
Hobgoblin2099 posted:Aren't there some attacks that don't use AOE indicators. Like, that cyclops enemy that attacks you real-time if you step into him while he's spinning. His marker is just invisible, you still get hit if you're standing in range when the cast bar fills. Savage raids are full of invisible hit markers.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 20:55
|
|
|
Hobgoblin2099 posted:Aren't there some attacks that don't use AOE indicators. Like, that cyclops enemy that attacks you real-time if you step into him while he's spinning. Rofocale's figure eight charge is the only one I know of.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 21:25
|
|
|
MarquiseMindfang posted:Rofocale's figure eight charge is the only one I know of. The big glowing figure eight he draws on the ground is the AoE indicator 
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 21:30
|
|
|
Rainuwastaken posted:The big glowing figure eight he draws on the ground is the AoE indicator His point is that you don't always get hit if you stand in the 8 AoE when the cast ends. If you stand on the back part when it goes off and move out of the way before he reaches you back there, you don't get hit.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 21:31
|
|
|
Rofocale's aoe is indicated, but it's the only one I can think of that doesn't snapshot your position once the indicator fades.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 21:41
|
|
|
It probably does this by doing tiny little AoEs in front of him repeatedly as he moves
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 21:45
|
|
|
Yeah the figure eight shows the danger zone but the actual hitbox seems to be attached to Rofocale himself as he runs around it. So you can be standing in it when the cast ends and be safe if you leave before he gets to you, or be out of it when it finishes casting, go in, and then get run over. It's a fairly unique mechanic and not a standard AoE marker.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 21:48
|
|
|
Thundarr posted:Yeah the figure eight shows the danger zone but the actual hitbox seems to be attached to Rofocale himself as he runs around it. So you can be standing in it when the cast ends and be safe if you leave before he gets to you, or be out of it when it finishes casting, go in, and then get run over. It's a fairly unique mechanic and not a standard AoE marker. and as I've said, this only works as well as the servers allow cause I've seen some goofy poo poo in that fight like my friend walking well clear of him and out of the AoE then getting hit by him as he passed because the game apparently thought he was still inside the track. (Hilariously while talking poo poo about how ez the boss was.)
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 21:54
|
|
|
Hobgoblin2099 posted:Aren't there some attacks that don't use AOE indicators. Like, that cyclops enemy that attacks you real-time if you step into him while he's spinning. There's a dragon that does nothing but step on you for 15 minutes. It's actually a very big storyline event.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 22:05
|
|
|
It's also my character Vishap's Footrest <EULA>'s fetish
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 22:08
|
|
|
Trasson posted:Either attacks are processed serverside in which case every now and then if you run into some lag you're gonna get hit by some stuff you thought you dodged or attacks are processed entirely clientside (because otherwise you introduce client-server latency) in which case you're advocating for a completely foolish approach that has never gone wrong in any online game ever, no not at all. Kind of unrelated but are there any big examples of games doing this and ending up hilariously poorly? I know why it's a bad idea but I've only heard whispers about some game(s) sometime trying this to much regret.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 22:32
|
|
|
So that's why it's called the Steps of Faith.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 22:36
|
|
|
very few mmos are going to even attempt those sorts of things clientside. it's like saying 'i know its probably not safe to drive off a cliff, but has anyone tried it?' resolving things clientside in an mmo is just asking for trouble way beyond any minor hit detection issues it would solve. but if you'd like to see why its a bad idea, just look up any laggy gameplay from a p2p fps.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 22:39
|
|
|
oh no blimp issue posted:I don't see how a VPN would help? Just because your end point is different doesn't magically make your traffic any faster or do less hops? FFXIV did have a lot more netcode problems at first back when Titan Hard was more 'learn his pattern and hope your connection stays good enough to let you keep up with it.' They fixed those problems for the most part. oh no blimp issue posted:It probably does this by doing tiny little AoEs in front of him repeatedly as he moves Rofocale's trample is something I hope they do more of because it's something I didn't think was possible in the engine. In terms of hitbox, Rofocale doesn't actually move. He stays in the middle of the figure 8. In terms of AoE marking, it's incredibly dynamic. My guess is that the aoe plays out in four 'tracks' of the 8 in order: Front Left, Front Right, Back Left, Back Right. I've dodged the AoE at the front by stepping out of the Front Right part as he starts his charge. I want to say the animation is tied to the server-side 'firing' of the AoE as close as possible, with the incredibly overdramatic 'throw people away' knockback covering up the exact timing of it. Edit: Xun posted:Kind of unrelated but are there any big examples of games doing this and ending up hilariously poorly? I know why it's a bad idea but I've only heard whispers about some game(s) sometime trying this to much regret. I want to say some Korean MMO's have done it but it's been so long since I've played the few big ones that made it over here that I can't remember any concrete details or experiences about it. Plus it's not like I cared about them enough to actually dive into the whole client-server chicanery  A 50S RAYGUN posted:very few mmos are going to even attempt those sorts of things clientside. it's like saying 'i know its probably not safe to drive off a cliff, but has anyone tried it?' Imagine the bots with their crazy teleporting around underneath the ground shtick and now allow them the ability to tell the server 'no i didn't get hit by this. even if there's literally nowhere for me to dodge. i didn't get hit. also i cast flare 300 times in the last second the boss is dead, gimme my loot' EponymousMrYar fucked around with this message at 22:48 on Apr 25, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 22:43
|
|
|
oh no blimp issue posted:It probably does this by doing tiny little AoEs in front of him repeatedly as he moves Easier to just attach a collision box to him and when it detects an overlap, damage the overlapping object.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 22:57
|
|
|
Xun posted:Kind of unrelated but are there any big examples of games doing this and ending up hilariously poorly? I know why it's a bad idea but I've only heard whispers about some game(s) sometime trying this to much regret. Rule number one in anything you do internet games-wise is to never trust the client. This is part of the reason why hacking in, let's say, Dark Souls PvP is so rampant. Player 1 attacks player 2 and tells P2's client "i attacked you with weapon #129". P2's client receives this info and now calculates the resulting damage from attacker's weapon ID versus the player's currently equipped armor, stats and so on. Then P2's client sends the info of "Ok, i took 63 damage from that" back to P1's client. But, you know, Player 2 can just modify his client to lie about that. And Player 1's client will just take the info of "oh i actually didn't get hurt by this at all!" at face value. This is kiiind of a problem. And also the reason why it's possible to get cursed by invading players, or teleported into an inescapable abyss, or deleveled, because the attacking player can just tell your client "my attack that hit you has the property #xyz that's in the game's files and now it applies to you" and no-one in-between can check the veracity of that. Balancing how much of the data you receive from a client to accept as real and how much you calculate yourself is a fine balance act. The more you chose to compute internally, the higher the bandwidth and computational time you use on a server. The more you offload onto your client side, the more said client has the opportunity to just lie to you. There even was kind of a prominent case of this in FF14 back in ARR. There was a time when FF14 trusted the client side on completing a craft, without checking previous events. Which meant that eventually someone figured out that you can just watch what data packets your client sends to the server on completing a craft, taking the one that stands for "current craft completed now", and just sending it an arbitrary number of times in a row. Every time said package was sent to the server, the server awarded you with EXP for that completed craft. It did not actually give you the item you crafted, because the whole crafting process, selecting the recipe and consuming the materials did not take place, but you could just tell the server "Hey, i just crafted something of recipe level X! Gimme Y amounts of XP!" And the server would just go "Yup, alright, here you go!". Getting any crafter to 50 in a matter of hours was as simple as downloading a packet sniffer, crafting something and sending the last packet over and over. It's not the case anymore, but obviously that came at the cost of more computational burden to the server. It's not that big of a deal in this case, because not hundreds of thousands of people are finishing a craft every second, like what happens with players getting hit, i suppose. But you try to save bandwidth and performance wherever you can as a developer.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 22:58
|
|
|
Hello, resident nerd here to basically tell you that the game's mechanics and dodging them is easy, and if you are dumb and blaming 'animations', then you may want to consider discussing this with a gaming therapist. They will be able to analyze your psychological blockers to becoming a better person.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:09
|
|
|
ntan1 posted:Hello, resident nerd here to basically tell you that the game's mechanics and dodging them is easy, and if you are dumb and blaming 'animations', then you may want to consider discussing this with a gaming therapist. Rainuwastaken posted:The point was never "I can't avoid things because I watch for animations and not cast bars." The point was always, "It's kinda weird that the animation is delayed so much after cast bar completion that you can visually be clear of the attack by a mile and still get smacked." Which is a legitimate criticism because it is weird, despite making some amount of sense from a netcode / clarity point of view.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:11
|
|
|
the mobs of level 17 thaumaturges teleporting across thanalan farming gil right now is why the server should never trust the client for anything
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:11
|
|
|
Does everyone just go into loving ultra siege mentality when this game gets called out in any sort of way and they turn into a wholly unpleasant person or something?
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:12
|
|
|
Chucat posted:Does everyone just go into loving ultra siege mentality when this game gets called out in any sort of way and they turn into a wholly unpleasant person or something? Yes
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:13
|
|
|
You can do sanity checking on the server, and "never trust the client" is one of the things that made FF14 V1.0 such a miserable experience. Online games indeed have to balance when they trust the client and when critical stuff only gets done with approval from the server. FF14 does more of the latter than most MMOs I've played, which is why eg. WoW with 400ms ping plays better than FF14 with 100 to 200. Chucat posted:Does everyone just go into loving ultra siege mentality when this game gets called out in any sort of way and they turn into a wholly unpleasant person or something? I want to say welcome to SA/Discussion/Games, but this game is special, yes. Reiterpallasch posted:the mobs of level 17 thaumaturges teleporting across thanalan farming gil right now is why the server should never trust the client for anything No this is why people who can't even get a basic chat spam filter working in 2018 shouldn't design MMO server software. orcane fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Apr 25, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:15
|
|
|
Don't feel bad! Remember that all people in the world have some latent psychological baggage!
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:17
|
|
|
If you want more examples on the bad idea of trusting the client's data, leveling your crafters to max level wasn't the only thing this exploit could do. I said that you wouldn't get the item resulting from a packet-manipulated craft, but that's not quite true. If i recall correctly, every time you sent the "craft completed" package, you DID actually get the item AS LONG as you actually had the proper materials for it in your inventory, which were then consumed to give you the finished item. You could still spam the package without the required materials, but you would only get completion exp and no item. And you could go even further: Completing the craft basically snapshotted your current craft progress and sent that to the server. Which means that when you crafted some item with a 97% HQ chance and continually sent that finisher packet to the server with the required materials in your inventory, you'd get the resulting item at a 97% HQ chance directly into your inventory, without the crafting hassle and faster than even quick synth. This worked on any recipe, so an especially crafty (  ) hacker who's determined enough could just analyze said packet, identify the recipe number and quality value in it, modify those and basically mass-produce any item in the game with zero effort and guaranteed 100% in high quality as long as the materials were there, just by telling the server "Yo, i just made this".Don't trust your client on anything, if you can help it. If you say he gets hit, he gets hit, not the other way around.
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:20
|
|
|
ntan1 posted:Don't feel bad! Remember that all people in the world have some latent psychological baggage! In the nicest possible way, what on earth is wrong with you?
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:20
|
|
|
Chucat posted:In the nicest possible way, what on earth is wrong with you? he's bourgeois I HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN THAT I'M GOING TO EAT YOU NTAN
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:21
|
|
|
HenryEx posted:Don't trust your client on anything, if you can help it. If you say he gets hit, he gets hit, not the other way around. This works if you're playing that game while locally connected to the server. In the real world this leads to "but I was out of this half a second ago and still got hit" in fights like Titan Ex (E: And not because you were inside the danger zone when the cast finished). orcane fucked around with this message at 23:29 on Apr 25, 2018 |
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:24
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 11, 2024 20:45 |
|
|
Chucat posted:In the nicest possible way, what on earth is wrong with you? Like I said
|
|
#
?
Apr 25, 2018 23:25
|
|