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muscles like this! posted:My understanding is that he wrote a script and then David Ayers did a pass on it without any of Landis' input. So whatever he was talking about isn't what the finished movie ended up being. Although I doubt it would be that great either as he hasn't really shown a great talent for deep screenwriting. Do you mean Landis or Ayer there?
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Apr 28, 2018 01:19
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K. Waste posted:The plot is that there have always been orcs. I honestly doubt that reading will make sense if orcs always existed. It sounds like you're saying that nothing is different except there are orcs now. Race, creed, sex, everything is exactly the same. Plus orcs. How is that a commentary on anything? I guess I have to watch it.
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Apr 28, 2018 01:24
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Wheat Loaf posted:Do you mean Landis or Ayer there? Neither really. Though I don’t understand how people think some magical message was erased when it’s more likely Landis just overhyped his rather simple movie.
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Apr 28, 2018 01:30
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Krankenstyle posted:I honestly doubt that reading will make sense if orcs always existed. It sounds like you're saying that nothing is different except there are orcs now. Race, creed, sex, everything is exactly the same. Plus orcs. How is that a commentary on anything? Well, no, plenty of things are different - the point is that these differences are the superficial content of generic fantasy, but the ideological context is unchanged. Generic fantasy is a veiled representation of dominant ideology.
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Apr 28, 2018 01:45
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It's fine but at that point it's just an (unusually incisive?) SNL sketch or something.
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Apr 28, 2018 01:48
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K. Waste posted:The funny thing, though, is that Bright considers religion. Even the Orc gangs and street artists, with their invocation of the Dark Lord and swearing of blood oaths, function just as much as cults as we might consider a gang. Have you seen the HBO show, The Leftovers? It had some great commentary in regards to religion/cults/society.
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Apr 28, 2018 01:48
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ruddiger posted:Have you seen the HBO show, The Leftovers? It had some great commentary in regards to religion/cults/society. I don't really watch TV at all but I'll check it out.
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Apr 28, 2018 01:50
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K. Waste posted:Well, no, plenty of things are different - the point is that these differences are the superficial content of generic fantasy, but the ideological context is unchanged. Generic fantasy is a veiled representation of dominant ideology. Alright I'm going to watch it over the weekend. Feel free to send a message or two about stuff I should pay attention to
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Apr 28, 2018 01:54
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K. Waste posted:Your second sentence doesn't follow the first, and also doesn't make sense on its own. Why would the existence of one other preclude the oppression and discrimination against others? Do you imagine that oppression is just the result of arbitrary prejudice? it all follows and it does make sense on its own.
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Apr 28, 2018 01:56
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Groovelord Neato posted:it all follows and it does make sense on its own. If a world in which orcs serve as the other likely wouldn't have racism, why would will smith's character live with them? Why would the existence of orcs likely prevent the development of racism?
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Apr 28, 2018 01:59
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CharlestheHammer posted:Neither really. You can read the original Landis script and Ayer's initial rewrite if you're really interested in comparing the differences, I posted links to them in the Bright thread. Lindsey Ellis also did a video that explored a bunch of things including some of the aspects of the different scripts that got carried over into the final version where they no longer make all that much sense and actively work against some of the things they were trying to achieve: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLOxQxMnEz8
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Apr 28, 2018 01:59
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K. Waste posted:If a world in which orcs serve as the other likely wouldn't have racism, why would will smith's character live with them? because with elves and orcs and the other species humans would just see themselves as "humans". skin color would be akin to hair color. the orcs are obvious stand-ins for black people. that's why it would make more sense for him to live around them if he's in a "bad" neighborhood Groovelord Neato fucked around with this message at 02:04 on Apr 28, 2018 |
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Apr 28, 2018 02:02
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Groovelord Neato posted:because with elves and orcs and the other species humans would just see themselves as "humans". skin color would be akin to hair color. This is basically what happens in Shadowrun: Humanis Policlub is basically the successor to the Klu Klux Klan (with Alamos 20,000 as the more militant terrorist wing) and boast an interracial mix of humans. It's even mentioned that skin color matters nothing compared to the dude who popped into a 7' tall horned troglodyte with bulletproof skin and can bench press cars, so traditional racism moved from discriminating against black and brown people and toward halfers (dwarves), dandelion eaters (elves), trogs (orcs and trolls) and general pointyears (most metahumanity has pointed ears, elves being super prominent).
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Apr 28, 2018 02:09
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Groovelord Neato posted:because with elves and orcs and the other species humans would just see themselves as "humans". skin color would be akin to hair color. Why would the existence of other humanoid species lead to a unified and unprejudiced conception of humanity, or, furthermore, to different human groups not developing ideologies of superiority to other humans? The orcs are not stand-ins for black people. Black people exist in the movie, and are also the victim of systemic oppression and socio-economic inequality. Smith's character is not defined by his living in a "bad" neighborhood, but since you're already pitching this hypothetical scenario where the existence of elves and orcs ends racism, why would he still live in a bad neighborhood? Again, are you under the impression that racism is merely arbitrary and superficial prejudice? That socio-economic inequality is not intrinsically reflective of racial hierarchy?
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Apr 28, 2018 02:14
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Groovelord Neato posted:will smith should've been living next to orcs not black "gangsters". in a world where we had an other like orcs racism likely wouldn;t exist. Good logic. I hadn't considered it but the existence of black people is a great explanation for why no one is racist towards middle eastern people
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Apr 28, 2018 02:19
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hahahah holy poo poo. two brain trusts in a row.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:20
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K. Waste posted:Why would the existence of other humanoid species lead to a unified and unprejudiced conception of humanity, or, furthermore, to different human groups not developing ideologies of superiority to other humans? It's the other way 'round, Kenneth Groovelord Neato posted:hahahah holy poo poo. two brain trusts in a row. You're unironically presenting the Ronald Reagan "if only there were aliens we could unite as Earthlings" argument but you don't even have dementia
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Apr 28, 2018 02:21
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hahaha no im not. in bright the orcs have been here for thousands of years.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:25
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Groovelord Neato posted:hahaha no im not. in bright the orcs have been here for thousands of years. Racism is not about numb nuts biotruths tribe vs tribe poo poo. Creating more people to exploit that look less like you will not eliminate exploitation of somewhat more similar looking people
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Apr 28, 2018 02:27
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Groovelord Neato posted:hahaha no im not. in bright the orcs have been here for thousands of years. Again, why would the existence of orcs prevent the development of racism? Like, full stop, let's even forget the fact the systematic oppression of orcs and socio-economic privilege of elves is already racism, that these are the veiled archetypes of this ideology.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:28
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It would depend on how many Orcs there are, their economic station vis-a-vis the "average" American, etc. Elves are Jews.
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Apr 28, 2018 02:28
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porfiria posted:Elves are Jews. Then why do they look like a Nazi's wet dream?
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Apr 28, 2018 02:31
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K. Waste posted:Then why do they look like a Nazi's wet dream? The main elf guy is a Latino Elf (+1 WIS/+1 DEX).
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Apr 28, 2018 02:33
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human skin isnt an issue in any version of planet of the apes explain
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Apr 28, 2018 02:49
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Groovelord Neato posted:will smith should've been living next to orcs not black "gangsters". in a world where we had an other like orcs racism likely wouldn;t exist. I guess if you assume that the orcs all lived on top of the minerals white people wanted and the black people didn't live on top of anything anyone wanted
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Apr 28, 2018 02:52
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AdmiralViscen posted:I guess if you assume that the orcs all lived on top of the minerals white people wanted and the black people didn't live on top of anything anyone wanted Orcs in Bright are shown to literally bench pressing cars and barely look human with their prominent tusks, receded noses, and patchy multi-colored skin, that's probably a more determining factor in discrimination than whatever scientific racism was invented to dehumanize black people. Young Freud fucked around with this message at 03:18 on Apr 28, 2018 |
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Apr 28, 2018 02:57
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K. Waste posted:Why would the existence of orcs likely prevent the development of racism? Shuuuuut uuuppppppp
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Apr 28, 2018 03:07
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Unoriginal Name posted:Shuuuuut uuuppppppp It’s kind of interesting having someone try and understand racism who doesn’t understand humans.
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Apr 28, 2018 03:25
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K. Waste posted:Nobody would find Bright at all impactful if it were more like most other fantasy films, people already engage with it as a lazy approximation of Lord of the Rings and Who Framed Roger Rabbit? and so on. The problem is that the film is clearly impactful, but the impact it leaves is subversive. The question effectively becomes "Why engage in subversion?" This is not a question of inherent quality, it's an ideological question. There is no reason why a fiction film shouldn't exploit the aesthetic and conventions of fantasy films in the context of social and political satire. The substance becomes not only to address social and political realities, but also their mythological substantiation. Star Vs The Forces of Evil already did basically this more interestingly.
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Apr 28, 2018 03:33
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CharlestheHammer posted:It’s kind of interesting having someone try and understand racism who doesn’t understand humans. It wasn't a good take when it was in the Bright thread either. If you need that many words to explain a movie about ORC COP, the writers have failed, on several levels. Its a bad movie with hamfisted allegories. Also, its screenplay is disjointed garbage.
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Apr 28, 2018 03:39
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K. Waste posted:Then why do they look like a Nazi's wet dream? Actually makes a surprising amount of sense given a lot of Nazi attitudes towards Jews come off as basically jealousy when you look at them closely. Alternatively a privileged 'master race' dealio like a dominant minority race like in Apartheid African countries. Shadowrun, of course, did it all so much better. Elves are basically the 'model minority' in that setting, and there's a handful of them that actually pre-date the whole magic coming back thing (since in Shadowrun, magic returned to the world and various humans turned into elves, dwarves, orcs and trolls, among other things. A lot of world governments collapsed in the process), though they're usually shown as loving everything up despite their privilege and abilities. And apparently they run Ireland.
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Apr 28, 2018 03:41
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Unoriginal Name posted:It wasn't a good take when it was in the Bright thread either. If you need that many words to explain a movie about ORC COP, the writers have failed, on several levels. "Why is the world of Bright so similar to our own world despite the existence of Orcs and Elves and whatnot? Because the movie is predicated on the supposition that the existence of Orcs, Elves, and whatnot would not in itself be enough to change the social and economic dynamics of the world." There, fifty-three words.
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Apr 28, 2018 04:08
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Schwarzwald posted:"Why is the world of Bright so similar to our own world despite the existence of Orcs and Elves and whatnot? Because the movie is predicated on the supposition that the existence of Orcs, Elves, and whatnot would not in itself be enough to change the social and economic dynamics of the world." That is kind of dumb, but more efficient true.
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Apr 28, 2018 04:16
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I figured it out: The orcs were there all the time but they lived in like Albuquerque.
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Apr 28, 2018 04:56
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CharlestheHammer posted:That is kind of dumb, but more efficient true. You're not going to like a film if you can't get past its central conceit, but that alone isn't a mark against the film.
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Apr 28, 2018 05:39
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muscles like this! posted:My understanding is that he wrote a script and then David Ayers did a pass on it without any of Landis' input. So whatever he was talking about isn't what the finished movie ended up being. Although I doubt it would be that great either as he hasn't really shown a great talent for deep screenwriting. Dirk Gently was good.
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Apr 28, 2018 05:39
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Schwarzwald posted:You're not going to like a film if you can't get past its central conceit, but that alone isn't a mark against the film. Well yeah it’s a bad film so of course it’s central conceit is dumb.
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Apr 28, 2018 05:44
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K. Waste posted:The funny thing, though, is that Bright considers religion. Even the Orc gangs and street artists, with their invocation of the Dark Lord and swearing of blood oaths, function just as much as cults as we might consider a gang. Given that there's no reason to believe black people weren't enslaved (since it is just modern America but with orcs), that would imply that African Americans have somehow leapfrogged orcs in the social hierarchy in recent history, which leaves you with a pretty interesting question of how a people would even do that in the context of America. Is there a Wakanda sitting in Africa, forcing Americans to tolerate black people and the oppression of orcs is the result of American society needing a subjugated people to function? Or was the civil rights movement just MLK telling everyone that black people deserve better than orcs, and white America agreeing that it was actually pretty strange that they were making GBS threads so hard on Christian humans when you had pagan non-humans running around? K. Waste posted:Moreover, I think it's important to note how, despite superficially depicting what should be pagan societies - and certainly being inspired by pagan culture - Tolkien fantasy and world-building is overtly a veiled analogy for Christianity. No pagan is preoccupied with some diametric opposition between good and evil, between gods of peace and 'Dark Lords' and such. Again, generic fantasy literature is overtly a production of Western ideology, where the history of Christianity dominates as source of religious justification for any number of historical events.
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Apr 28, 2018 06:12
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Unoriginal Name posted:If you need that many words to explain a movie about ORC COP, the writers have failed, on several levels. "A movie is bad if it gives you a lot to talk about" is a pretty interesting talk for a discussion forum.
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Apr 28, 2018 06:34
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There's generally more to easily talk about in bad movies than good ones, if only to figure out what went wrong.
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Apr 28, 2018 06:43
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