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botany posted:🎵who gives a gently caress why as long as they do it🎵 lol that thinking dems saying a thing means they are going to do it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA9KC8SMu3o
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Apr 30, 2018 22:34
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Also where's this weird loving idea that people can't vote against their immediate interest and that anyone who doesn't vote dem because they're poo poo is clearly some kind of champagne swilling ultrabooj in disguise? Is it so weird to think that maybe people who need real change in their lives rather than platitudes can look at the situation and think "well I'm never going to get it by voting for megabucks mc cuntface with the blue pin on, so I'm going to vote against them as well as the republicans"
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Apr 30, 2018 22:36
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botany posted:🎵who gives a gently caress why as long as they do it🎵 What's the guarantee they'll do it Dems are opportunists and pay lip service to the issue long enough to convince people they're behind it and then do nothing unless absolutely forced to, and even then it's almost always some half rear end bullshit
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Apr 30, 2018 22:37
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Also as always it's important for me to point out that I live in a uniquely lovely situation for voting being in Syracuse shhh the german who knows our political system better than anyone has assured me that if you don't vote for a dem in all elections you're supporting republicans. he also told me that non-voters are cast into hell with the rest of the sinners
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Apr 30, 2018 22:37
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botany posted:the dumb thing is in my country voting "third party" actually makes sense, since we have a functioning political system Which one? Die Linke?
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Apr 30, 2018 22:38
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Condiv posted:well, my plan was instead to vote for dems that are good, and not vote for dems that are bad, so as to hopefully purge the party of the bad dems. i call it strategic voting It's great to be ideologically pure, but ocassionally you have to suck it up and vote for a mediocre/bad dem if the results of losing warrant it. If you're a middle class white person, maybe no results warrant it  BENGHAZI 2 posted:By supporting the people who gently caress people to death, I'm an even better one Wait is this in defense of not voting, or voting? OwlFancier posted:You can't change it if you keep offering uncondtional support to whoever has the blue rosette on. Because why are you going to get electoral reform if you achieve your end state of just electing any democrat that's on the ballot? Why are you going to get left candidates if literally anyone can show up and get the votes because people have to give them? I've made this argument in the past. The issue is that the party doesn't look at your vote like this. If all you do is vote lesser evils, no you won't change the party. You need to vote lesser evils AND work at changing the party from the ground up. That takes work and that's why most internet posters end their involvement at protest voting. quote:Like, why are you a socialist if you think that oligarchs will just hand over power because you ask nicely while supporting everything they do? You don't get better wages by asking the boss for some but refusing to withdraw your labour. If dems want votes you have to make them work for them, because votes are the only thing they give a poo poo about, votes are their money, votes are their power, votes are what they need from you, you don't give them over freely and expect anything back in return do you? A voter strike has different results than a labor strike. If I don't vote in a close state and Trump wins, I have actively hosed people HARD, rather than given them a lesser loving. I'd prefer no loving(har har) but that's not one of the two options. quote:Why on earth do you treat democrats like some sort of ally or equal? I don't. They occasionally ally but ideologically they're going to be liberals, and not leftists, until the party shifts(if ever).
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Apr 30, 2018 22:38
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OwlFancier posted:Also where's this weird loving idea that people can't vote against their immediate interest and that anyone who doesn't vote dem because they're poo poo is clearly some kind of champagne swilling ultrabooj in disguise? Is it so weird to think that maybe people who need real change in their lives rather than platitudes can look at the situation and think "well I'm never going to get it by voting for megabucks mc cuntface with the blue pin on, so I'm going to vote against them as well as the republicans" This is where I bust in and remind everyone that I refuse to vote for Dems and work at a lovely part time job where i scrape by, grew up somewhere between secure and not, and am the stealth redneck in any gathering of friends You can be broke as a joke and think the system is hosed and doesn't care about you
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Apr 30, 2018 22:38
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OwlFancier posted:Also where's this weird loving idea that people can't vote against their immediate interest and that anyone who doesn't vote dem because they're poo poo is clearly some kind of champagne swilling ultrabooj in disguise? Is it so weird to think that maybe people who need real change in their lives rather than platitudes can look at the situation and think "well I'm never going to get it by voting for megabucks mc cuntface with the blue pin on, so I'm going to vote against them as well as the republicans" sorry, that's just too strategic. we need to vote for dems so they can
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Apr 30, 2018 22:39
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Jaxyon posted:It's great to be ideologically pure, but ocassionally you have to suck it up and vote for a mediocre/bad dem if the results of losing warrant it. I mean you're positing thAt not supporting the people who are loving us to death is bad, so by supporting them you're actually good
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Apr 30, 2018 22:39
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OwlFancier posted:Also where's this weird loving idea that people can't vote against their immediate interest and that anyone who doesn't vote dem because they're poo poo is clearly some kind of champagne swilling ultrabooj in disguise? Is it so weird to think that maybe people who need real change in their lives rather than platitudes can look at the situation and think "well I'm never going to get it by voting for megabucks mc cuntface with the blue pin on, so I'm going to vote against them as well as the republicans" Because 90% of the time when I'm arguing this on facebook it's a white upper middle class person saying "hillary and trump are functionally the same" and that's because to them, they are. If you're an exception, wonderful, but most aren't.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:39
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VitalSigns posted:Which one? Die Linke? yep
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Apr 30, 2018 22:39
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Condiv posted:shhh you live in france, you don't get to pull that "he's a foreigner" poo poo
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Apr 30, 2018 22:40
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botany posted:yep Nice, good luck
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Apr 30, 2018 22:40
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Jaxyon posted:I've made this argument in the past. The issue is that the party doesn't look at your vote like this. If all you do is vote lesser evils, no you won't change the party. You need to vote lesser evils AND work at changing the party from the ground up. That takes work and that's why most internet posters end their involvement at protest voting. If they don't look at your vote like that, the issue is that you have not denied them enough votes. In a system where the majority of people don't vote, I would suggest this is already their error. A party should fear its voters. You can argue "well it's a two party system so that's never going to happen" in which case, perhaps the preferred goal is to render it no longer a two party system? By taking votes from either of the other parties?
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Apr 30, 2018 22:40
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Jaxyon posted:It's great to be ideologically pure, but ocassionally you have to suck it up and vote for a mediocre/bad dem if the results of losing warrant it. we've already established i'm a lowerclass white person. also bi, not that it matters to you. and the results of winning have to be considered too, and they don't warrant it anymore. oligarchs winning and tearing down democracy doesn't appeal to me in the slightest.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:41
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Jaxyon posted:Because 90% of the time when I'm arguing this on facebook it's a white upper middle class person saying "hillary and trump are functionally the same" and that's because to them, they are. 100% of the time when you're arguing it you're fuckin retarded Also at the most base level, in terms of how they impact regular people's lives, there really isn't much of a difference Hillary would still be rounding up immigrants and pursuing a forever war and not doing poo poo about healthcare and minimum wage
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Apr 30, 2018 22:41
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:I mean you're positing thAt not supporting the people who are loving us to death is bad, so by supporting them you're actually good OOh I can do this too! You're posting that by supporting the people loving you harder, eventually you'll stop getting hosed. But the middle part in there is hazy and not very detailed.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:42
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botany posted:you live in france, you don't get to pull that "he's a foreigner" poo poo i'm american botany. so yeah, i do, cause i'm not actually a foreigner. the talk about me being under IBR for my student loans might've clued you in to that if you were actually as aware of how america works as you claimed you were.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:42
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VitalSigns posted:Nice, good luck thanks, we're doing pretty well locally where i am. now if we could get our national leaders to play along nicely instead of infighting all the time... 
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Apr 30, 2018 22:43
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Condiv posted:i'm american botany. so yeah, i do, cause i'm not actually a foreigner. the talk about me being under IBR for my student loans might've clued you in to that if you were actually as aware of how america works as you claimed you were. you live in france. i live in germany. we presumably both have people we care about in the US. unless you want to argue that understanding of the US political system is transmitted genetically, there's no reason to discard my points but value yours.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:45
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botany posted:the fact that i understand your political system better than you should give you pause but i'm reasonably sure you couldn't pour water out of a shoe with the instruction printed on the sole so Why am I not surprised that in this thread, much like the lovely Trump threads that died or got shut down, people are getting hung up on what country people are from instead of their actual thoughts? Who can explain the mysteries of the human mind? For instance: can people stop themselves from arguing in bad faith? It seems like the answer is no, but I'm no doctor so who knows.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:46
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OwlFancier posted:If they don't look at your vote like that, the issue is that you have not denied them enough votes. In a system where the majority of people don't vote, I would suggest this is already their error. A party should fear its voters. You can argue "well it's a two party system so that's never going to happen" in which case, perhaps the preferred goal is to render it no longer a two party system? By taking votes from either of the other parties? That's not how the system works. If you want to change the electoral progress, change it, but don't fool yourself that simply voting 3rd party every once in a while is doing that. Currently there are things preventing third parties from progress that require more change than not voting for Dems and hoping.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:48
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botany posted:you live in france. i live in germany. we presumably both have people we care about in the US. unless you want to argue that understanding of the US political system is transmitted genetically, there's no reason to discard my points but value yours. i've lived in america most of my life, and i'm an immigrant to france. i've only lived here about 5 years now. i voted for obama in 2008 and 2012, as well as a number of other state and local level elections.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:48
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Jaxyon posted:OOh I can do this too! I'm explicitly not supporting any of the people loving me to death though
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Apr 30, 2018 22:49
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:100% of the time when you're arguing it you're fuckin retarded You're a moron if you think they're functionally the same. This is a lie you're telling yourself because either A) you aren't reading enough or B) it justifies your ideology BENGHAZI 2 posted:I'm explicitly not supporting any of the people loving me to death though And because of how politics works, you may be effectively doing it anyway. This is why you should try to learn things.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:49
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Jaxyon posted:That's not how the system works. Who says that's all people are doing
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Apr 30, 2018 22:50
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Jaxyon posted:That's not how the system works. I would suggest that any change is going to require not voting for the democrats at some point. Because again, why are you going to get any change to the electoral system if you keep instilling the idea that people have to vote either democrat or republican? '"I want electoral change!" cries person actively reinforcing two party system' is not a very compelling argument. Neither party is going to want to change the electoral system if they're both capable of winning with it. Either you deny the republicans it long enough that they run with electoral reform on the ticket, or you deny the democrats it long enough that they do. And I would suggest that voting democrat at present is an excellent way to ensure that it falls right back into republican hands because they appear chronically incapable of doing lasting good with their time in office resulting in swings back to republican. Like, voting third party and encouraging everyone else to do so or just not vote seems by far the most sensible way to undermine the legitimacy of the current electoral system and also to force the existing parties to consider electoral reform to save their own skins, both of which seem like necessary steps to enact electoral reform. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 22:56 on Apr 30, 2018 |
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Apr 30, 2018 22:50
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Jaxyon posted:You're a moron if you think they're functionally the same. This is incredible argument, really does a great job explaining your point of view and not just asserting that you're better than me
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Apr 30, 2018 22:51
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Who says that's all people are doing Nobody, but that poster specifically said withholding votes was a strategy. At this time, until laws are changed, that's not a winning strategy at all, and actively fucks over people.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:51
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Jaxyon posted:And because of how politics works, you may be effectively doing it anyway. if voting means he's supporting people loving him to death, and not voting means he's supporting people loving him to death, why do you give a poo poo if he votes? people are gonna gently caress us to death in any case edit: oh wait, you said that non-voting is less supportive of the "gently caress me to death" parties, so it looks like that's still in his best interests
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Apr 30, 2018 22:51
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Jaxyon posted:Nobody, but that poster specifically said withholding votes was a strategy. A strategy, not the only strategy Voting for Dems also actively fucks over people
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Apr 30, 2018 22:52
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Condiv posted:if voting means he's supporting people loving him to death, and not voting means he's supporting people loving him to death, why do you give a poo poo if he votes? people are gonna gently caress us to death in any case it is amazing you can look at GOP policies and dem policies on, e.g., gay people, and conclude they're all the same and hence it doesn't matter. it's even more amazing you can type a line like the above and still argue you're not only concerned about yourself and people like you.
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Apr 30, 2018 22:54
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It's pretty funny to watch Jaxyon and botany insist that neoliberal dems are owed our votes Now who else have I seen say th—  oh..
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Apr 30, 2018 22:55
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botany posted:it is amazing you can look at GOP policies and dem policies on, e.g., gay people, and conclude they're all the same and hence it doesn't matter. it's even more amazing you can type a line like the above and still argue you're not only concerned about yourself and people like you. Lol if you think the Dem policy wasn't to pay lip service until joe hosed up and said he was in favor of it and forced them to get on message
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Apr 30, 2018 22:56
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botany posted:it is amazing you can look at GOP policies and dem policies on, e.g., gay people, and conclude they're all the same and hence it doesn't matter. it's even more amazing you can type a line like the above and still argue you're not only concerned about yourself and people like you. i've already told you why i won't vote for the dems. you don't need to look further than the fact that they're for crushing democracy in elections they control. why would i support that, or a party that was dragged kicking and screaming to acceptance of gay marriage by outside forces?
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Apr 30, 2018 22:56
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Also queer people and PoC are working class losers like me all the time so suck my whole rear end
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Apr 30, 2018 22:57
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botany and Jaxyon telling us the party of superdelegates cares about democracy now man the hits keep on coming
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Apr 30, 2018 22:59
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Lol if you think the Dem policy wasn't to pay lip service until joe hosed up and said he was in favor of it and forced them to get on message again: i do not give a poo poo why they do it as long as they do it Condiv posted:i've already told you why i won't vote for the dems. you don't need to look further than the fact that they're for crushing democracy in elections they control. why would i support that, or a party that was dragged kicking and screaming to acceptance of gay marriage by outside forces? because, you incorrigible moron, the party that was dragged kicking and screaming into supporting a good policy is still better than the party that wasn't and isn't.
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Apr 30, 2018 23:01
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Even the republicans haven't done anything as bad to democracy like kicking it in the nuts with superdelegates like the Democrats did just loving ponder that for a moment and still insist that these fuckers still deserve your vote
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Apr 30, 2018 23:02
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viral spiral posted:botany and Jaxyon telling us the party of superdelegates cares about democracy now when the gently caress did i say that
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Apr 30, 2018 23:02
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