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Condiv posted:it wouldn't in the short term, but it might mean the dems could be reformed. bad dems like manchin hanging on to power means no reform to the dems, and they keep getting worse for immigrants. again, nice try using them as a shield while supporting a racist. The way to get rid of bad dems is primaries. This falls on voters to punish the electeds that are not representing their values.
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May 1, 2018 22:09
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Voting them out in the general seems like a potential strategy too, with like, a different party or something
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May 1, 2018 22:10
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Control Volume posted:Voting them out in the general seems like a potential strategy too, with like, a different party or something This thread is giving me a headache.
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May 1, 2018 22:11
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VitalSigns posted:It would be the same for immigrants.
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May 1, 2018 22:12
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Control Volume posted:Voting them out in the general seems like a potential strategy too, with like, a different party or something That sounds great, potentially. Unfortunately both parties have rigged the system so that's not a realistic option without passing reforms that you actually have to have political power to implement. Hence the DSA's strategy of working with the Democrats.
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May 1, 2018 22:12
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Im just saying, if someones single issue is immigration, and theyre given a choice between manchin, a republican, and some guy who says he doesnt want to blackbag all the muslims, theres only one real choice
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May 1, 2018 22:12
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Jaxyon posted:What you posted is not me saying: by voting for oligarchs trying to strip us of democracy, you are supporting them jaxyon. you insist upon the lesser evil strategy, which literally insists we vote for and support these oligarchs if they are in the GE. and a lot will be. so yes, you're arguing for supporting oligarchs. maybe you should drop such a simple-minded approach as lesser evilism if you don't want to support oligarchs or advocate for them? mcmagic posted:The way to get rid of bad dems is primaries. This falls on voters to punish the electeds that are not representing their values. which they're doing everything they can in their power to make ineffective and not allow voters to punish electeds. so lets see, your timetable for wresting control of the party from racists that treat immigrants like poo poo like manchin is what? 20-30 years if we're lucky? i'm sure the people in ICE detention will thank you for sticking to trying to change the party under its own lopsided rules.
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May 1, 2018 22:14
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*pouts 3rd parties into power wiping out election laws with the power of positive thinking*
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May 1, 2018 22:14
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Jaxyon posted:*pouts 3rd parties into power wiping out election laws with the power of positive thinking* That seems unproductive. I think voting for third parties would be more effective if you pursue this strategy
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May 1, 2018 22:15
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Jaxyon posted:*pouts 3rd parties into power wiping out election laws with the power of positive thinking* sounds more realistic than *pushes the dem party left with the power of positive thinking*. wonder why you subscribe to such a silly notion
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May 1, 2018 22:16
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Condiv posted:by voting for oligarchs trying to strip us of democracy, you are supporting them jaxyon. you insist upon the lesser evil strategy, which literally insists we vote for and support these oligarchs if they are in the GE. and a lot will be. so yes, you're arguing for supporting oligarchs. maybe you should drop such a simple-minded approach as lesser evilism if you don't want to support oligarchs or advocate for them? You said: quote:by insisting that we vote for dems at all times you are indeed saying to vote for oligarchs. That's not what I said, it's a strawman. You said: quote:and you're saying to support them in their attempts to destroy democracy by giving them political power And that's not what I said it's a strawman. You're now making the argument that the result of my position is these things, 100%, because working in absolutes and strawmen is how you likely justify your worldview.
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May 1, 2018 22:17
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Condiv posted:sounds more realistic than *pushes the dem party left with the power of positive thinking*. wonder why you subscribe to such a silly notion Neither is realistic, but I never said to do the latter. Notice how again, only the strawmen aimed at you matter. There's a reason why I put that one there.
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May 1, 2018 22:18
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Im kind of lost here. I dont think strawmen can vote, why is there such a large focus on their opinions now?
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May 1, 2018 22:20
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To be quite frank I dont think the straw men care much one way or the other anyways, as most politicians dont have any opinions or policies catering to them
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May 1, 2018 22:21
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Jaxyon posted:You said: both are in fact what you said. you can't say "always vote for democrats!" and expect to get a pass on advocating for voting for the oligarchs the dems will push through jaxyon. don't be naive. likewise, you can't advocate for voting for oligarchs and at the same time claim you're not supporting them and giving them poltiical power with which to attack democracy jaxyon. don't be naive. quote:You're now making the argument that the result of my position is these things, 100%, because working in absolutes and strawmen is how you likely justify your worldview. there are unchallenged oligarchs in the upcoming primaries so yes, the result of your position is support of oligarchs. sorry jaxyon, that's how the cookie crumbles. maybe you should reconsider absolute support of dem politicians in the GE?
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May 1, 2018 22:21
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Jaxyon posted:Neither is realistic, but I never said to do the latter. Notice how again, only the strawmen aimed at you matter. There's a reason why I put that one there. you sure did. when you said to change the party by pushing left but never ever by not voting for a dem in the ge. if such a strategy worked, it would've borne fruit by now. instead, the dems have circled the wagons and refuse to change. so your strategy does in fact boil down to "push the dems left with the power of positive thoughts" congrats!
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May 1, 2018 22:23
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Seems like the people opposed to "lesser evil voting" keep implying that a poo poo tier Republican getting elected has better long term gains than voting in a less than ideal Democrat. Which seems like a really sly way of just making sure Republicans get elected. I especially liked the poster presented with "Option A: you die and Option B: you die after a longer period of time" and they said "gently caress you I'm not playing." Like, omegalul dude that wasn't a choice. Then you're probably just picking A in that scenario.
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May 1, 2018 22:37
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Condiv posted:both are in fact what you said. No. Go ahead and quote me saying those things. Control Volume posted:Im kind of lost here. I dont think strawmen can vote, why is there such a large focus on their opinions now? Basically it's easier to argue against what you want people to say then what they actually do
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May 1, 2018 22:39
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Grimdude posted:Seems like the people opposed to "lesser evil voting" keep implying that a poo poo tier Republican getting elected has better long term gains than voting in a less than ideal Democrat. Which seems like a really sly way of just making sure Republicans get elected. You missed where the "you die" part is almost certainly not applying to them in either scenario.
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May 1, 2018 22:40
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self unaware posted:lol that thinking dems saying a thing means they are going to do it Never trust the vile lying dem, for he speaks only as a snake does, and then lies with Satan.
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May 1, 2018 22:42
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Jaxyon posted:No. Go ahead and quote me saying those things. already did jaxyon. Grimdude posted:Seems like the people opposed to "lesser evil voting" keep implying that a poo poo tier Republican getting elected has better long term gains than voting in a less than ideal Democrat. Which seems like a really sly way of just making sure Republicans get elected. but it is a choice. things aren't as binary as you're trying to claim they are, and if they are we might as well give in to fate and die now than die later.
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May 1, 2018 22:49
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Condiv posted:already did jaxyon Except, you didn't. You quoted me saying other things, which you interpreted as saying something different. That's called a strawman. It's cool, if you're not interested in actually being honest we're done.
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May 1, 2018 22:53
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Jaxyon posted:Except, you didn't. You quoted me saying other things, which you interpreted as saying something different. i've explained how what you've said results in those things jaxyon. it's too bad you never decided to be honest in your discussions here, but oh well. i hope you reconsider your support of oligarchs
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May 1, 2018 22:57
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Just gonna leave this here. A disgusting corporate grifter who calls himself a progressive is likely to get the Dem nom for the Governorship. https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/archives/2018/05/01/shri-thanedar-leads-democrats-in-latest-michigan-governors-race-poll If Dem voters are so low-information that they won't punish pols with bad values and can't distinguish the con from the real it's hard not to pull a McMagic and start to despair.
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May 1, 2018 23:09
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If voters are dumb it's because the society they live in has made them so, and that society is a product mostly of the government.
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May 1, 2018 23:12
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OwlFancier posted:If voters are dumb it's because the society they live in has made them so, and that society is a product mostly of the government. That's not even the problem, the real problem is that there's a very easy way to get dumb votes and it's called screaming "those fuckers, our poo poo" over and over and over and the Dems refuse to do it because their donors are the fuckers who own our poo poo.
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May 1, 2018 23:13
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Dem primary voters and the party are pro dog torture. Democrats will never help the Dreamers since there are way too valuable as hostages and wouldn't want to force Red State Democrats to do anything. Eggplant Squire fucked around with this message at 23:16 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 23:14
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OwlFancier posted:If voters are dumb it's because the society they live in has made them so, and that society is a product mostly of the government.  Government is both influenced and an influencer. There's not going to be a one main reason but if you're going to pick one, capitalism is a better bet.
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May 1, 2018 23:14
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Hell, lets replace them both
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May 1, 2018 23:20
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Jaxyon posted:Never trust the vile lying dem, for he speaks only as a snake does, and then lies with Satan. this but unironically, and about all registered dems OwlFancier posted:If voters are dumb it's because the society they live in has made them so, and that society is a product mostly of the government. lol at thinking it's possible for humans to not be dumb there's a reason democracy isn't compatible with an ecologically sustainable society Grimdude posted:Seems like the people opposed to "lesser evil voting" keep implying that a poo poo tier Republican getting elected has better long term gains than voting in a less than ideal Democrat. Which seems like a really sly way of just making sure Republicans get elected. I'm the guy who describes politicians with decades of racist policy, warmongering and completely selling out to corporations as "less than ideal" and then doesn't understand why people won't vote for his preferred candidate 90s Rememberer fucked around with this message at 23:44 on May 1, 2018 |
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May 1, 2018 23:30
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Jaxyon posted:
Capitalism is by defniition a description of a directionless process, however, and thus it is about as useful to complain about as gravity, or a finite human lifespan, or the fact that we aren't telepathic. The government is not directionless force, and thus it falls to it to improve society. Failure to do so or even to attempt it is an indictment of its competency.
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May 1, 2018 23:42
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mcmagic posted:Republicans won and there is an ethnic cleansing squad terrorizing people all over the country. Dismissing that as ah yes and ICE is a uniquely republican gestapo
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May 2, 2018 00:29
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is loving vile.
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is there a more bad dem opinion than "but Trump gave us ICE!!"
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May 2, 2018 00:31
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self unaware posted:is there a more bad dem opinion than "but Trump gave us ICE!!" Yeah, "dems are basically as bad as Republicans" but by bad I mean privileged
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May 2, 2018 00:35
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Jaxyon posted:Yeah, "dems are basically as bad as Republicans" well at least that's true. i mean, if you put the basically there it's not even an argument I'd tell you the dems are worse
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May 2, 2018 00:37
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I really don't think it can be understated that the Democratic party does more to damage social progress in the country than the GOP could ever hope to. The GOP openly opposes social progress and people who want that vote for it, and largely get it. The Democrats openly support social progress, people vote for them, and they stab them in the back time and time again. The Democrats have shown time and time again that they are not willing to fight for minorities, the poor, or any other disenfranchised person unless they absolutely have to. You can see it with the "evolution" on same sex marriage. It shocks me that people like botany, who clearly pays some attention to politics, can actually come in here with a straight face and try to pretend like if the Democrats say something they are going to do something. Don't give me this "but they are election promises, you're supposed to expect they are lying". What am I supposed to believe is true exactly? Why should I believe Hillary wants to fight for minorities when she has a long history of the opposite and her predecessor went hole hog on ramping up ICE detention centers when he should have been marching with unions like he said he would. How many times are you suckers going to keep voting for people who openly lie to you over and over again and continuously pursue only ONE agenda, which is that of the oligarchs who own the vast majority of wealth in this country. I mean gently caress, a "flawed" candidate would be a loving massive step in the right direction. Democratic candidates aren't flawed, they are evil people hell bent on creating the world's first quadrillionaire at any cost, even the entire planet. 90s Rememberer fucked around with this message at 00:48 on May 2, 2018 |
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May 2, 2018 00:46
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I like how the same persons who loudly proclaim that dissatisfaction with democrats is a white, privileged person type of thing are the same who had meltdowns when dreamers protested Pelosi and Schumer. A reminder: https://twitter.com/ErikaAndiola/status/962052816230531072
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May 2, 2018 00:48
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self unaware posted:well at least that's true. i mean, if you put the basically there it's not even an argument LOL how far do you have to be up your own rear end to believe this stuff. self unaware posted:How many times are you suckers going to keep voting for people who openly lie to you over and over again and continuously pursue only ONE agenda, which is that of the oligarchs who own the vast majority of wealth in this country. Galaxy brain: Money is a big thing in politics. Thanks man, you're really opening my mind here.
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May 2, 2018 00:49
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Have you considered.....maybe a lot of politicians are corrupt? Makes you think.
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May 2, 2018 00:50
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Voting for corrupt politicians hell bent on allowing our current dystopia to keep getting worse to own the conservatives Like fine, all politicans are corrupt and nothing matters. Just don't vote Dem.
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May 2, 2018 00:50
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