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Suspicious Dish posted:Sure, but only if they improve the developer experience on Mac to not be loving terrible. Seriously, use some of that 36 billion dollars or whatever you have lying around, buy some PS4 SDKs made by grownups and call me back when you can do a twentieth of the stuff they have. gently caress you, the developer experience on the Mac is pretty goddamn nice, and I’ve worked pretty goddamn hard on making my parts of it—and a great many parts that aren’t mine—quite good and quite capable (also, I actually know one of the people who ran PS4 at Sony, and get regular and actionable input from them on this kind of thing, thanks)
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May 5, 2018 07:12
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Gazpacho posted:so ah what's the other platform for hardware-independent net-delivered interactivity that we're all missing out on? there is no such thing as a good way to deliver applications independently of operating system, trying to pretend it’s something that can exist despite decades of experience to the contrary is just folly write native applications against well defined protocols
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May 5, 2018 07:14
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eschaton posted:write native applications against well defined protocols i wish this were more of a mantra and things like electron just hosed off forever. i cant think of a way to make electron worse - maybe replacing javascript with groovy?
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May 5, 2018 15:10
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eschaton posted:there is no such thing as a good way to deliver applications independently of operating system, trying to pretend it’s something that can exist despite decades of experience to the contrary is just folly lol if you think your ideological purity will ever outweigh business needs get with the times grandpa
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May 5, 2018 15:28
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NihilCredo posted:c tp s: new intern started working this week. he was the first guy to see my current project's f# codebase so I'd spend the previous few days cleaning it up, adding comments, and most importantly replacing some of the fancier tricks i used with more verbose but simpler code i love f# but hate how easy it is to cross the line from "succinct" to "unreadably terse"
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May 5, 2018 15:35
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git reverted immediately and brought back all the srtp goodness
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raminasi posted:i love f# but hate how easy it is to cross the line from "succinct" to "unreadably terse" this but q
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May 5, 2018 15:39
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eschaton posted:delenda est JavaScript
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May 5, 2018 17:10
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eschaton posted:gently caress you, the developer experience on the Mac is pretty goddamn nice, and I’ve worked pretty goddamn hard on making my parts of it—and a great many parts that aren’t mine—quite good and quite capable you need to get out of the apple bubble if you actually believe this. the developer experience on the mac is atrocious
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May 5, 2018 17:12
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Sapozhnik posted:maybe in ten years when Linux might not be a completely dickless opposition (desktop environments were a solved problem ten years ago, surely they will eventually get bored of endlessly rewriting their broken poo poo from scratch) this will never, ever happen i say that as a desktop linux user. i've had a unix desktop for almost twenty years. i will never, ever change. but i don't expect this poo poo to ever hit the mainstream i expect desktop linux will probably take over software development for everything that isn't a fart app on ios, as the years go by, for practical reasons but no regular joe is going to put up with all the bullshit on linux. open sores projects are never going to stop scratching themselves and rewriting dumbassery
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May 5, 2018 17:28
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eschaton posted:there is no such thing as a good way to deliver applications independently of operating system, trying to pretend it’s something that can exist despite decades of experience to the contrary is just folly you're about twenty years too late for this fight, friend
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May 5, 2018 17:29
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:this will never, ever happen yeah well read the microsoft thread sometime oem agreements are a continuing issue but from everything i've seen lately microsoft are the ones racing to close the gap right now, not linux
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May 5, 2018 18:41
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every time i have to debug something on windows i am amazed by how much faster and responsive debugging something in visual studio in a vm is than debugging in xcode without the vm overhead
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May 5, 2018 19:22
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eschaton posted:gently caress you, the developer experience on the Mac is pretty goddamn nice, and I’ve worked pretty goddamn hard on making my parts of it—and a great many parts that aren’t mine—quite good and quite capable "the cost of the hardware and subscriptions required to create an iphone app is greater than the yearly income of over half the people on earth" "gently caress you im really proud of this one xcode dialog" e: im sure your work is great eschaton, but some of your posts about Apple stuff come across sounding really tone-deaf. i think it's reasonable to say that every big tech company has downsides in their products and in their corporate behavior. taking personal offense seemingly just because you work on the product of company X and know more about it is an extremely techbro response, imo Lutha Mahtin fucked around with this message at 21:41 on May 5, 2018 |
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May 5, 2018 21:16
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I used to have a not-entirely-legitimate VM of OS X with XCode, so I could test it out and help my students when they ran into trouble. After 2 hours with XCode, the official party line became that if you are on OS X, you are on your own  It is terrible.
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May 5, 2018 21:29
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Plorkyeran posted:every time i have to debug something on windows i am amazed by how much faster and responsive debugging something in visual studio in a vm is than debugging in xcode without the vm overhead im sure you're just missing the benefits of whatever it is that xcode is doing that requires it to be slow. also you can use vs to do ios development so theres no need for a human to interact with xcode or osx.
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May 5, 2018 22:04
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Peeny Cheez posted:If you must persist on doing this: ceterum censeo iavascripto esse delendam. ITYM persist IN doing this 
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May 5, 2018 22:20
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Struggling to get even just a simple mariadb server running was all i needed to convince me that developing on osx is a complete waste of time.
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May 5, 2018 22:59
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eschaton posted:gently caress you, the developer experience on the Mac is pretty goddamn nice, and I’ve worked pretty goddamn hard on making my parts of it—and a great many parts that aren’t mine—quite good and quite capable lmao
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May 5, 2018 23:38
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qhat posted:Struggling to get even just a simple mariadb server running was all i needed to convince me that developing on osx is a complete waste of time. code:
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May 5, 2018 23:39
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yeah, doing normal unix poo poo on macs is very nice and easy. xcode is where the pain is.
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May 5, 2018 23:41
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eschaton posted:gently caress you, the developer experience on the Mac is pretty goddamn nice, and I’ve worked pretty goddamn hard on making my parts of it—and a great many parts that aren’t mine—quite good and quite capable trap sprung, nice meltdown, etc.
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May 5, 2018 23:45
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feedmegin posted:ITYM persist IN doing this
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May 6, 2018 00:05
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Blinkz0rz posted:
gently caress a bunch of brew
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May 6, 2018 01:14
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Suspicious Dish posted:The PS3 architecture was really terrible for games just in general but that's a story for another thread. idk, this seems like a perfectly good thread for it
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May 6, 2018 01:46
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that story about how the original plan was two cells and no gpu is boggling
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May 6, 2018 01:51
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pseudorandom name posted:that story about how the original plan was two cells and no gpu is boggling all rendering done in software on a general-purpose CPU? lmbo
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May 6, 2018 02:29
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no, the cell is mostly terrible CPU cores aka really nice DSP cores
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May 6, 2018 02:38
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fritz posted:idk, this seems like a perfectly good thread for it yeah there's no other threads just some massive SPE's to offload computation on, but god help u if a branch is necessary
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May 6, 2018 03:07
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So, the PS3 was designed like the PS2 was. And the PS2 was designed for console developers -- you know, former arcade guys. People used to bizarre wack-rear end amounts of dumb special hardware and very not used to "multi-platform" development. A port was a real endeavor that basically meant rebuilding the game's code, and often the game's data. The Xbox 360 came out of Microsoft, who had built Direct3D and was used to handling multiple GPU vendors and drivers and all that stuff, and they ran it like a PC project: build a PC game in Direct3D but with some extra weird stuff and special cases and it'll run well on the XB360. You have a CPU, and a GPU, and some lovely slow memory; go build your game. The original goal was that, yes, your Cell processors rasterized the game, but they couldn't get the SDK ready in time and the memory bandwidth they required wouldn't be affordable to compete with the Xbox 360. At the last minute, they shoved in this godawful chip that NVIDIA had extras of and wanted to get rid of, basically. They duct taped this thing in there at the last minute. And when I say that, I mean it: it had its own memory that didn't connect to the rest of the Cell SPUs. So you had to initiate these really weird DMAs and such. The pixel processor on it was decently OK, but the vertex processor was somewhere between "extremely broken" and "meh". In order to, say, pass any camera uniforms into it, well, you had to patch the shader source code to supply constants in the code buffer itself. And flush the icaches. And cause a full pipeline stall. The Cell processor in the PS3 was an extremely powerful device for compute workloads, and a lot of people made cool tech with it, but that doesn't transfer easily over to games. (Note: the story in here is abridged and exaggerated for your humor)
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May 6, 2018 03:20
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did the cell SPUs communicate with anything other than the main ppc core? i thought they had little or no access to main memory
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May 6, 2018 03:32
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Notorious b.s.d. posted:did the cell SPUs communicate with anything other than the main ppc core? they interacted directly with a local store, but an spu could initiate a dma transfer to/from main memory and it's local store or between the local stores of 2 spus. the cell was neat in the sense that it was sort of a primitive gpgpu in terms of what kinds of workloads it targeted, but a year after they started shipping cell chips nvidia rolled out cuda and we know how that turned out. it seemed like everyone lost interest in the cell pretty quickly after that, except for sony who were stuck with it, and in 2009 ibm officially gave up on it calling the architecture "an evolutionary dead end". e: i remember seeing some generic benchmarks run on the main ppe processor core in the ps3 and overall it was slower than a powermac g5 running at roughly half the clock speed. The_Franz fucked around with this message at 05:03 on May 6, 2018 |
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May 6, 2018 04:28
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Suspicious Dish posted:trap sprung, nice meltdown, etc. so explain what you think is actually wrong with development on the Mac and don’t just say “lol I couldn’t figure out how to build MariaDB on non-Linux” like “VS debugging starts up instantly and is very responsive after startup,” is good feedback (and something we keep making progress on, though some people will assume no change unless LLDB suddenly becomes instant)
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May 6, 2018 05:05
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Suspicious Dish posted:So, the PS3 was designed like the PS2 was. And the PS2 was designed for console developers -- you know, former arcade guys. You're forgetting the part where the PS2 was designed to fix PS1 developers complaints. Specifically "The lack of an FPU kind of sucks", so SCJP said "fine, here's 2 VPUs, but they don't work the same and neither one follows IEEE 754, but our own IEEE 754 adjacent implementation whose weirdness isn't documented anywhere... Anyways, have fun!" Suspicious Dish posted:
The GPU and CPU had access to the same memory, which let you do cool things like write a GPU compute garbage collector for your lovely Lua port, but it was all PowerPC in the end, so enjoy your out of order execution anyway my dudes. Suspicious Dish posted:
The RSX was hilarious because it was a modified 7800 GTX and was little endian, and the reason you could only interact with it via DMA is because the Cell's PPU was PowerPC based and big endian as a result. Word is the RSX gently caress up is what led SCJP executives to give control over the PS4's design to SCEA, but I've only ever heard that from old white dudes perpetuating racists stereotypes at GDC.
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May 6, 2018 05:06
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Slurps Mad Rips posted:Word is the RSX gently caress up is what led SCJP executives to give control over the PS4's design to SCEA, but I've only ever heard that from old white dudes perpetuating racists stereotypes at GDC. less the rsx fuckup specifically, more that the ps3 very nearly bankrupted sony it is not an accident that the ps4 is designed around commodity hardware
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May 6, 2018 05:10
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Slurps Mad Rips posted:The GPU and CPU had access to the same memory, which let you do cool things like write a GPU compute garbage collector for your lovely Lua port, but it was all PowerPC in the end, so enjoy your out of order execution anyway my dudes. the xb360 and ps3 were both in-order units iirc. also the 360 didn't have gpu-level compute, it was a lovely fixed-function nvidia thing iirc.
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May 6, 2018 05:14
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Suspicious Dish posted:the xb360 and ps3 were both in-order units iirc. also the 360 didn't have gpu-level compute, it was a lovely fixed-function nvidia thing iirc. the ibm documentation says that the cell ppe is out-of-order, but i don't know if that was for the version they shipped in their blade servers and maybe the ps3 used a cheaper variant? the 360 was definitely in-order though. the 360 used a then-ati gpu. e: nevermind, it's in-order but allows limited out-of-order load instructions: quote:The PPE core can fetch four instructions at a time, and issue two. In order to improve performance from its in-order pipeline, the PPE utilizes delayed-execution pipelines and allows limited out-of-order execution of load instructions. This allows the PPE to get some of the advantages of out-of-order execution without any significant increase in complexity. The_Franz fucked around with this message at 05:28 on May 6, 2018 |
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May 6, 2018 05:23
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The_Franz posted:the ibm documentation says that the cell ppe is out-of-order, but i don't know if that was for the version they shipped in their blade servers and maybe the ps3 used a cheaper variant? https://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/pa-cellperf/ quote:The PPE consists of a POWER Processing Unit (PPU) connected to a 512KB L2 cache. The PPE is the main processor of the Cell BE, and is responsible for running the operating system and coordinating the SPEs. The key design goals of the PPE are to maximize the performance/power ratio as well as the performance/area ratio. The PPU is a dual-issue, in-order processor with dual-thread support.
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May 6, 2018 05:26
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the 360 is three slightly modified cell PPUs, so it’d be in-order too
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May 6, 2018 05:29
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that reminds me, one of the 360 PPU modifications was an load instruction that completely ignored the cache coherency protocol they discovered the hard way that if that instruction appeared anywhere in the executable, it could get speculatively executed on essentially random memory, which would cause speculative cache loads that ignored the cache coherency protocol and left the cache in a state that would later corrupt memory
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May 6, 2018 05:34
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eschaton posted:so explain what you think is actually wrong with development on the Mac The fundamental problem is that Apple significantly under-invests in developer tools relative to Microsoft. Microsoft's lead is therefore large and ever-expanding. Thinking about it now, if you count the people working on cross-platform tools like VS Code + its infinitely many extensions, dotnet, powershell, and so forth in addition to the VS for Mac team it's probable that Microsoft employs more people working on developer tools for the Mac than does Apple.
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May 6, 2018 10:11
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