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I'm not bothered by mechanical complexity but I wish there were one that were mechanically complex for the sake of being a game rather than mechanically complex for the sake of simulating superpowers.
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May 9, 2018 23:59
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Slimnoid posted:Is there any superhero RPG out there that's both good and isn't an overcomplicated mess of mechanics? strike!
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May 10, 2018 00:06
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Slimnoid posted:Is there any superhero RPG out there that's both good and isn't an overcomplicated mess of mechanics? gonna pump for Marvel Heroic Roleplaying.
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May 10, 2018 00:18
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i love MHR plenty but i'd call it overcomplicated, especially when you're first looking at it
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May 10, 2018 00:21
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I wouldn’t say that MHR is overcomplicated as much as it suffers from being under explained or insufficiently tutorialized, which leads to the same effect of being pretty unintuitive to grasp until rubber hits the road for a bit. I think the new version of Cortex is going to address that pretty well by virtue of not having the license and theming honestly.
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May 10, 2018 00:41
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Maxwell Lord posted:It seems like from what I've been able to gather, good superhero RPGs are either super mechanically complex, or very narrativist and simple- there's not a lot of middle ground. Given my brief foray into M&M, I'm leaning more towards the simple end of things. Brother Entropy posted:strike! I backed the kickstarter and tried reading through it when it finally released and honestly nothing about it really grabbed me. Being burnt out on 4e after playing/running it for so long probably didn't help. I suppose I should figure out if I want to run a superhero game and then decide at what general "power level": vigilante (minimal/no powers), superhero (moderately-powered heroes) , or cosmic (Thor, basically), and then find a system appropriate for it. I'm getting the feeling FAE might do what I need to do for at least the first two power levels, and the latter...I dunno.
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May 10, 2018 00:49
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MHR looks really neat but it also seems to fall into that weird hole where a game is trying to be rules-light while also claiming the benefits of mechanics-heavy. It's not as egregious in this as 7th Sea 2e, but it still ends up muddy and poorly-defined instead of slick and focused. Like, I think a superhero game should spend more time on superpowers.
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May 10, 2018 00:52
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I noticed a strange problem in recent years. Play a lot of games online with strangers and I've noticed an interesting trend. Alot of players tend to act a little weird and not how they used to act weird. I talked to one of my friends who are in a lot of my games and they seem to think that it might have to do with the rise in YouTube actual plays. There just seems to be people who have a very specific vision for how things are going to play out and kind of get surprised when it doesn't work that way. It's kind of hard to describe without like an example to point but but I guess I can describe it as a really fakey demeanor that can only be described as playing to a camera. I originally just thought it was just social awkwardness, I'm wondering if it's just habits people are picking up from getting a lot of their experiences off YouTube. dwarf74 posted:MHR looks really neat but it also seems to fall into that weird hole where a game is trying to be rules-light while also claiming the benefits of mechanics-heavy. I disagree. Because it's kind of a "do or do not" situation. Once the game starts to really worry about powers, it gets kind of hard to keep the rules light at all. There are a lot of powers in superhero comics and they don't actually abide by any rules other than whatever the writer needs at the moment so when you try to like make a system for them that actually goes into depth it's going to get very complicated very quick. In my mind you either keep super powers super light or the entire game is heavy. Slimnoid posted:Given my brief foray into M&M, I'm leaning more towards the simple end of things. I guess I'll just mention there is Icons which is trying to be that kind of make a random character deal and I hear good things about that. There is also Prowlers and Paragons which is just the West End D6 system for Supers.
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May 10, 2018 01:00
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dwarf74 posted:Like, I think a superhero game should spend more time on superpowers. Agreed. The game itself also shouldn't be so bogged-down with rules as to come off as being focused on the minutae, like mosy D20 versions end up being.
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May 10, 2018 01:01
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Personally, I'm a big fan of PDQ's Truth and Justice. It's light and encourages DIY powers, but it's also designed to be fairly traditional (rather than more narrative-style supers games which have come to dominate the landscape). That said, it has some significant problems here and there, so I used an unofficial 2nd edition I put together: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V7uNzfqcB9XYHYR3xa2s_QaLSSUMNj4-/view?usp=sharing
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May 10, 2018 01:27
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Slimnoid posted:Is there any superhero RPG out there that's both good and isn't an overcomplicated mess of mechanics? MHR or Strike! pending your focus. Also, @Jimbizog, please make the exclamation point official in all promotional materials when you make Strike! 2e. (Super Strike!) thank you.
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May 10, 2018 01:38
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Slimnoid posted:Agreed. The game itself also shouldn't be so bogged-down with rules as to come off as being focused on the minutae, like mosy D20 versions end up being. You're not going to get both. It also doesn't help that "superhero" isn't a genre, it's a supergenre, and most supers games get bogged down in trying to work for every single subgenre instead of just picking one and sticking to it. And again, unless you really don't want to play teenage superheroes trying to make a name for themselves, Masks is the best supers game out there. 
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May 10, 2018 01:40
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Covok posted:I noticed a strange problem in recent years. Play a lot of games online with strangers and I've noticed an interesting trend. Alot of players tend to act a little weird and not how they used to act weird. I talked to one of my friends who are in a lot of my games and they seem to think that it might have to do with the rise in YouTube actual plays.  I don't know if it's what you're experiencing, but when I talked to people post-mortem a lot of them were acting odd because they wanted X to "just happen"; for some reason, asking for X was impossible or enormously undesirable.
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May 10, 2018 01:47
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Or you don't want to give money to Magpie Games, which is another issue to consider.
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May 10, 2018 01:47
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Mr. Maltose posted:Or you don't want to give money to Magpie Games, which is another issue to consider. Yeah, that's fair.
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May 10, 2018 01:50
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Yawgmoth posted:Back when I was playing with randos off roll20's LFG system, a lot of people seem to have a set of expectations that were often at odds. Like, a player will have this super detailed backstory... but not tell anyone including the GM. And then get weird/sad when people don't bring it up and it never comes up during play, because they wanted it to come up "naturally". Or a GM will have an idea for a game, and then delete it entirely after 1-2 sessions because the PCs did something he didn't expect. I had one guy delete his whole account because I asked for an example of how his homebrew item creation system would work. social anxiety is a bitch
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May 10, 2018 01:51
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Yawgmoth posted:Back when I was playing with randos off roll20's LFG system, a lot of people seem to have a set of expectations that were often at odds. Like, a player will have this super detailed backstory... but not tell anyone including the GM. And then get weird/sad when people don't bring it up and it never comes up during play, because they wanted it to come up "naturally". Or a GM will have an idea for a game, and then delete it entirely after 1-2 sessions because the PCs did something he didn't expect. I had one guy delete his whole account because I asked for an example of how his homebrew item creation system would work. Somewhat similar. I ran a sandbox of eberron and kept dropping plot hooks but one player just refused to bite. At first, it was fine his character want to do different things. But nothing I could throw at him with something his character wanted to do and when I asked him what he wanted to do he really had no answer. Like how am I supposed to loving respond to that? He ended up being a real drag on things. My friend, thankfully, decided to get check that at a local house to see if he had a dragon mark because he demonstrated healing capabilities and that allow me to spin out a plot line of a Lost Heir and mistaken identity and an attempted Invasion by Thane. But he hated that whole thing. I really didn't know what to do cuz what am I supposed to do to a guy doesn't want to do anything? And then he would get really kind of douchey to one of the other players to the extent that I actually had to step in and tell the guy not tell the other person what to do or insult the guy for choosing to do something. He was very controlling like he was just expecting everyone to make the right move all the time or expecting everyone to be like super in character or something. Then I invited a new player with a very clear goal of becoming an Airship Captain and then he was totally on board. But kind of too on board and got a little pushy. It was kind of stuff like that. Just this refusal to play and this expectation for me to magically come up with exactly what he want to do mixed with the desire for things to just move really fast and level ridiculously quickly when were playing 4th edition D&D with the experience points rules. And that's just one example. I have others. I can't imagine someone just quitting when you ask him how home brew system works and then deleting his entire account. Is there more to that story?
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May 10, 2018 01:55
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Slimnoid posted:Is there any superhero RPG out there that's both good and isn't an overcomplicated mess of mechanics? I like Double Cross.
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May 10, 2018 02:08
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Yawgmoth posted:Back when I was playing with randos off roll20's LFG system, a lot of people seem to have a set of expectations that were often at odds. Like, a player will have this super detailed backstory... but not tell anyone including the GM. And then get weird/sad when people don't bring it up and it never comes up during play, because they wanted it to come up "naturally". Or a GM will have an idea for a game, and then delete it entirely after 1-2 sessions because the PCs did something he didn't expect. I had one guy delete his whole account because I asked for an example of how his homebrew item creation system would work. As someone who is basically trapped as a forever GM i've always been tempted to look through those LFG threads but goddamn do I hear nothing but horror stories out of it.
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May 10, 2018 02:18
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kingcom posted:As someone who is basically trapped as a forever GM i've always been tempted to look through those LFG threads but goddamn do I hear nothing but horror stories out of it.
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May 10, 2018 02:21
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if my group ever disbands I'm seriously running a "roll a 1, you're the GM now" game
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May 10, 2018 02:22
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LuiCypher posted:I was thinking of the following systems: Teenagers From Outer Space.
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May 10, 2018 02:26
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kingcom posted:As someone who is basically trapped as a forever GM i've always been tempted to look through those LFG threads but goddamn do I hear nothing but horror stories out of it. Extremely same. Also it's like, 90% D&D/Pathfinder games and the other 10% is Warhammer of some kind and the usual setting description might as well be "welcome to the land of eternal misery and suffering". Nobody runs happy games 
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May 10, 2018 02:36
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just run ryuutama yourself
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May 10, 2018 02:40
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Fuego Fish posted:Extremely same. Also it's like, 90% D&D/Pathfinder games and the other 10% is Warhammer of some kind and the usual setting description might as well be "welcome to the land of eternal misery and suffering". But don't you understand? Only sad things can have any artistic merit and I only run games that are high art!!! /sarcasm
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May 10, 2018 02:47
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I was so disappointed by Strike, it was sold as a cure-all to D&D, but it turns out that '4e with less poo poo' is still 4e. I'm really not convinced tactical combat is compatible with rpgs - there's always one player who doesn't get it, or it takes forever, or something. Honestly, I'm not even sure it should be an aim of rpgs - 'good story' and 'realistic fights' rarely go together. Happy games... I've found FATE and Dungeon World great for more lighthearted stuff - I had a great time running a pulpy scifi in FATE, very much playing the 'this is loving ridiculous OC, but all the characters take it completely seriously' schtick. e:   
lofi fucked around with this message at 03:03 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 02:55
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Plutonis posted:just run ryuutama yourself I'm doing that. It's going well so far. I wish the game had clearer guidelines on appropriate challenge levels for areas/monsters that weren't directly contradicted by the sample scenarios though.
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May 10, 2018 03:04
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I’m really not sure about grid-based tactical combat as a tabletop RPG thing. If you want to create characters that move across a predefined board with a bunch of math and a game that’s 90% crunchy mechanics, just play a video game. It’ll be less work.
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May 10, 2018 03:11
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Maxwell Lord posted:It seems like from what I've been able to gather, good superhero RPGs are either super mechanically complex, or very narrativist and simple- there's not a lot of middle ground. Tuxedo Catfish posted:I'm not bothered by mechanical complexity but I wish there were one that were mechanically complex for the sake of being a game rather than mechanically complex for the sake of simulating superpowers. You can have simpler mechanics in a non-narrative superhero game if it has a specific setting and milieu, like Double Cross. Some superhero games are really more universal systems, and the weight of modeling literally any conceivable fictional character is immense. Mutants & Masterminds is like this, but at least it recognizes that its a superhero game and does stuff like modeling Fighting Skill as a base stat. I think that if I were to run a street-level superhero game, I'd do it in Strike. I wanted to do something like that not long after 4e came out, but there was enough of a rift between its assumptions and the superhero genre that it seemed like too much work. (It's amazing how big a deal it ends up being that D&D's attack/defense system is mainly built around armour, once you think through all the implications.) Covok posted:Today, I had a similar thought in that I thought that would be really cool to run a campaign where you were all just Marvel Asgardians as that makes you weird space gods who actually are God's because of how Marvel cosmology works.
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May 10, 2018 03:13
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Pollyanna posted:I’m really not sure about grid-based tactical combat as a tabletop RPG thing. If you want to create characters that move across a predefined board with a bunch of math and a game that’s 90% crunchy mechanics, just play a video game. It’ll be less work. Yeah, exactly my take on it. XCOM is basically 4e, right? e: "I think that if I were to run a street-level superhero game" Isn't that an oxymoron? The whole point of street-level is to not have innate abilities that give you an advantage. Myself, I'd go for a pbta game for supers - the implications of the system would really suit characters who are in control of the story. lofi fucked around with this message at 03:17 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 03:13
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Pollyanna posted:I’m really not sure about grid-based tactical combat as a tabletop RPG thing. If you want to create characters that move across a predefined board with a bunch of math and a game that’s 90% crunchy mechanics, just play a video game. It’ll be less work. this argument applies to any tabletop rpg
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May 10, 2018 03:17
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yes, in rules-terms. On the other hand, me and GM talking out how my D&D character has a 'very oversized sign langauge' as a secret language of the Oghammite library cults is what makes tabletop worth it. That's why I'm such a fan of DW, it plays to the strength of 'making up interesting story' and avoids getting bogged down in trying to be a computer game. lofi fucked around with this message at 03:20 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 03:17
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Thuryl posted:When you put it that way, it sounds like those old Fighting Fantasy gamebooks where not finding the right set of items or clues throughout the book could screw you over even if you got to the end alive. That specific module really is like that, yeah, except if you miss the clues / items it is 100% your fault, not the game's. Dread Crypt is quite a good module, but boy is it unforgiving.
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May 10, 2018 03:20
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Covok posted:It was kind of stuff like that. Just this refusal to play and this expectation for me to magically come up with exactly what he want to do mixed with the desire for things to just move really fast and level ridiculously quickly when were playing 4th edition D&D with the experience points rules. quote:I can't imagine someone just quitting when you ask him how home brew system works and then deleting his entire account. Is there more to that story? 
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May 10, 2018 03:21
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lofi posted:Yeah, exactly my take on it. XCOM is basically 4e, right? In comic books, "street-level" is stuff like Daredevil or Batman, or arguably also Power Man and Iron Fist and Spider-Man--basically heroes who operate at a city-level scale and don't generally have abilities that affect more than the area around them. Not counting Batman's wealth of a small nation of course. They usually fight more localized threats as a result. A really common problem with superhero RPGs is that they try to model 'guy who shoots arrows' alongside 'literal power of a god' superhero teams and that's...difficult without just going full narrative.
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May 10, 2018 03:27
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lol that's so sincere and weird, like for a brief moment when you asked him about the thing he spoke of and looked into his soul and he couldn't handle it
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May 10, 2018 03:28
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Actually, talking about that 4e game, I'm curious if I'm being unreasonable or if the players being unreasonable on this one aspect. Same player I was talking about, but he's complaining about the fact we're still Level 1. Now, we've only been in a couple of sessions, maybe four, and we've only been in two fights and a skill challenge. The reason being that they stayed in the city and kind of refused some plot threads I kind of thrown at them as I've already mentioned. The thing is that we've had to miss a lot of weeks so it has been a while in real time and he's wondering why we're still Level 1. My response is mainly that we've barely played the game and it does take a while to level in a 30 level game. But am I being unreasonable? I gave them the XP that could be expected, but he always says why don't we just get more XP? And I usually just go "well were playing with XP and rewarding XP for in-game stuff as expected. It just sometimes takes a while to level." Because it really has been very few sessions and, because a 4e can take an entire session, we only had two fights. No one else is really complaining about that and, to be honest, there 1 battle way from leveling ( which is to be expected since you should level after 4 fights and they did two fights and a skill challenge so there at 3) so it's like I'm not rewarding XP as it makes sense. To be honest, I really don't look forward to leveling them because they're all neophytes to the system and we did our session zero in person. We are now playing online because of scheduling conflicts so that's going to be a nightmare. I'm not holding them back but I'm just saying that's going to suck.
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May 10, 2018 03:28
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Yawgmoth posted:Yeah that's the kind of poo poo I would see a lot. Like just expecting a climactic fight or something every session and getting lovely because "why isn't this like those 'epic game stories' threads I keep seeing all the time?!" Lots of games falling apart over a single slow session, or just a session that sets up plot elements for later. Now listen, I have bullshitted many things while GMing. My entire experience is built on bullshit. I have been caught in my bullshit before because I haven't thought things out and it hosed up in the end. I never ran away from just being asked about a sub system before. That man likely has some very strong social anxiety and I feel sorry for him and I hope he gets better and wish him the best.
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May 10, 2018 03:31
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Pollyanna posted:I’m really not sure about grid-based tactical combat as a tabletop RPG thing. If you want to create characters that move across a predefined board with a bunch of math and a game that’s 90% crunchy mechanics, just play a video game. It’ll be less work. Or Gloomhaven.
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May 10, 2018 03:37
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occamsnailfile posted:A really common problem with superhero RPGs is that they try to model 'guy who shoots arrows' alongside 'literal power of a god' superhero teams and that's...difficult without just going full narrative. Linear arrows, quadratic thors? Maybe D&D has been perfect for supers all along! I was thinking of 'street level' as in cyberpunk 'you are one of the masses', I've not heard it used the way you describe before.
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May 10, 2018 03:41
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