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Kanos posted:If Kira hadn't chopped his arms off he probably would have beaten her pretty handily. Either way he would have had absolutely no way to defend himself against anyone who wanted him dead. No I mean he turned his back on her and drifted toward Kira cause he was upset at Kira, leading to his death. Armless or not, he probably would have died cause he stopped paying attention to her, though that can be indirectly blamed on Kira.
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May 10, 2018 02:02
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He stopped paying attention to her because Kira WTF are you doing I was trying to fight her and you blew off my weapons.
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May 10, 2018 02:14
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In the middle of a battle Heine Westenfluss forgot to fight.
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May 10, 2018 02:15
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Yeah it'd be one thing if Kira shot his cameras or legs and thrusters or something, but if it was just his weapons then that one is on Heine.
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May 10, 2018 02:22
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It's on the writers who introduced a celebrity-voiced character in a hamfisted way, built him up in a hamfisted way across a couple of episodes, and then killed him in a hamfisted way and expected you to feel sad. edit: What's it called when they show a ghostly overlay of a character as they die? because he got one of those after only being in the show for like 4 episodes lmbo
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May 10, 2018 02:25
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BattleMaster posted:It's on the writers who introduced a celebrity-voiced character in a hamfisted way, built him up in a hamfisted way across a couple of episodes, and then killed him in a hamfisted way and expected you to feel sad. The Really Dead Montage?
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May 10, 2018 02:31
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Yinlock posted:that's why early destiny is rad, because it makes that interesting by exploring how unbelievably lovely some rear end in a top hat just blowing up everyone's guns and leaving makes things 00 also justifies it by the CB Gundams being outrageously more advanced and just straight-out unkillable in most situations by conventional weapons. The Meisters have all the time in the world to sit in a battlefield just going "hey, stop that  " and shooting rifles one-by-one rather than it being a masturbatory display of skill (Hell, they could've probably just walked up to every combatant barehanded and taken their guns from them manually). Especially when it becomes apparent they're not actually all that good as pilots aside beyond the technology advantage.
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May 10, 2018 02:36
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Neddy Seagoon posted:00 also justifies it by the CB Gundams being outrageously more advanced and just straight-out unkillable in most situations by conventional weapons. The Meisters have all the time in the world to sit in a battlefield just going "hey, stop that That's also how Loran managed to survive not killing people in Turn A. Well, that and there being exactly one good pilot at the time. The best part, though, was how people initially assumed Loran beating them the way he did was as a taunt from the most terrifying pilot they knew, rather than, well, a guy still trying to figure out the controls and read the manual at once.
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May 10, 2018 03:09
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Eh, to give them credit, Kira never actually just blows up weapons and leaves. In SEED, he's there until the very end of every battle, to the point he's dragging a dude away from CYCLOPS and needs a hug to get onto the Orb shuttle. Afterwards he's there unless he's disabled or they don't really have a choice. In the final battle he disables people and moves on to other places but the people he's disabling are A: firing nuclear warheads or B: Defending a giant death laser. He's pretty justified in slashing-and-moving and him killing dudes wouldn't really change much. Destiny's a bit iffier but Kira's never actually just randomly blowing poo poo up. The first time he fights the Minerva Cagalli's trying to stop the Orb forces from getting into a slaughter and they're trying to stop the war from escalating which Orb and the Alliance slaughtering ZAFT's prize vessel would do. The second time they're trying again because Yuna is basically suiciding the Orb troops to try to please the Earth Alliance. In that fight he spends most of his time fighting Shinn and Athrun aside from quickly disabling Sting. The last time it's the Destroy and they're just fighting the Destroy the entire time. Kira's "maybe I shouldn't kill people" thing is silly but he's not Celestial Being where he's actively expecting war to end because he shot the weapons. He's presented as foolish because he's willing to take a chance on a good outcome for leaving people alive and to the show's extremely minor credit it does go both ways. Kira sparing people earns him allies but it also gets people killed and the show actually acknowledges this. It's just that the show's viewpoint is "it's worth the cost to uphold your ideals." Kira never actually expects anyone else to agree with what he's doing and he says it every time he's questioned about it. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 03:15 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 03:09
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ImpAtom posted:Eh, to give them credit, Kira never actually just blows up weapons and leaves. The problem is the implication that he's disabling them rather than just not killing them. It's not really feasible to disable a humanoid mecha, nevermind potentially loaded with built-in weapons, in a way that doesn't require removing all the limbs AND the head. And even then, there's probably missile pods in the backpack. You took its arms? Well now it's landed on a battleship and it's kicking it to death.
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May 10, 2018 03:14
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Neddy Seagoon posted:The problem is the implication that he's disabling them rather than just not killing them. It's not really feasible to disable a humanoid mecha, nevermind potentially loaded with built-in weapons, in a way that doesn't require removing all the limbs AND the head. And even then, there's probably missile pods in the backpack. Eh. While that's true, it also not really how it's presented in any Gundam series. Very few pilots are shown to be willing to fight until their mecha is literally torn apart unless they're crazy or have no other choice. You're right that a dedicated pilot could probably just overload their reactor and suicide bomb someone, but that requires a pilot to be willing to suicide bomb themselves. Most pilots when damaged end up retreating if they can and if you take out the wing units/thrusters/whatnot then "they could go and kick a robot to death" is largely theoretical because good luck doing that.
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May 10, 2018 03:18
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chumbler posted:Yeah it'd be one thing if Kira shot his cameras or legs and thrusters or something, but if it was just his weapons then that one is on Heine. I mean, you have to make some inferences here, but Heine fights Stellar and is beating her rather handily and hurts her. Assuming Kira flew in and chopped Heine's arms off and Heine never turned his back to fight Kira, there is a significant issue here: Heine is now completely defenseless against a fully armed, unstable crazy person who holds grudges(the reason she flies after Kira in the scene where Heine gets in the way is because Kira gave her a love tap). Athrun himself effectively blames Kira for Heine's death because if Kira hadn't shoved his face into the battle it wouldn't have happened in the first place. This is honestly just emblematic of the bigger problem I always had with Kira's pacifism. It works okay when it's a two-sided battle, but when you have Kira intervening between two other forces that are desperately attempting to kill each other there is a significant chance that every enemy he disables or disarms is simply going to die to the opposing side because whoops, now they can't defend themselves in an active battlefield. This also doesn't address that violently slicing or shooting off significant portions of a mobile suit could cause chain reactions or impair functionality in other ways beyond "can't shoot guns no more". It's like it becomes less of a principled ethical stance(I don't want to kill people but absolute pacifism won't work so I'll just remove their ability to fight) and more of a way to feel morally superior(well those guys might all be dying but *I* certainly didn't kill any of them  ).
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May 10, 2018 03:22
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ImpAtom posted:Eh. While that's true, it also not really how it's presented in any Gundam series. Very few pilots are shown to be willing to fight until their mecha is literally torn apart unless they're crazy or have no other choice. You're right that a dedicated pilot could probably just overload their reactor and suicide bomb someone, but that requires a pilot to be willing to suicide bomb themselves. Most pilots when damaged end up retreating if they can and if you take out the wing units/thrusters/whatnot then "they could go and kick a robot to death" is largely theoretical because good luck doing that. That's the exact problem though; Kira's just going "haha, I have disabled you in honorable combat and I am a Good Person. LATER!" without any further thought for what the pilot's up to beyond that while he's now halfway across the battlefield. And there's also the Batman factor as others have said. He disabled their GINN... along with the lifesupport. Hope that battle wraps up before their minimal suit air runs out...
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May 10, 2018 03:24
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Neddy Seagoon posted:That's the exact problem though; Kira's just going "haha, I have disabled you in honorable combat and I am a Good Person. LATER!" without any further thought for what the pilot's up to beyond that while he's now halfway across the battlefield. Like I said though, he doesn't really? Like to use Heine's death as an example: He knocks Stellar into the water, disables Heine, and then he's distracted by Athrun. While he's distracted by Athrun, Stellar attacks him and Heine (randomly) gets between them and gets cut in half. Like Stellar isn't even targeting Heine. He just gets between her and Freedom.
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May 10, 2018 03:29
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That said, Kira did kill Stellar by blowing up the cannons, so you can apply the criticism of Kira recklessly shooting stuff prone to exploding there.
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May 10, 2018 03:51
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Allarion posted:That said, Kira did kill Stellar by blowing up the cannons, so you can apply the criticism of Kira recklessly shooting stuff prone to exploding there. I honestly don't see how. Yeah, Kira killed Stellar, but he killed Stellar by stabbing the giant glowing death cannons that were charging up to blow up Shinn. (He's totally to blame for her death because he was the one who triggered her to go berserk when she was calming down but to give Kira credit he had literally zero way of knowing that.) To also be fair to Kira, the Minerva was also preparing to blow Stellar the gently caress up with a Tannhauser. Even if he hadn't killed her, Talia was going to.
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May 10, 2018 04:00
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ImpAtom posted:I honestly don't see how. Yeah, Kira killed Stellar, but he killed Stellar by stabbing the giant glowing death cannons that were charging up to blow up Shinn. I couldn't find a clip to conveniently rewatch so my argument is less sound here  I was basing it off of hazy memories of Shinn calming Stella down and then Kira swooping in and blowing poo poo up, so fair enough Allarion fucked around with this message at 04:08 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 04:04
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Allarion posted:I couldn't find a clip to conveniently rewatch so my argument is less sound here The sequence of events is Shinn calms Stellar, Stellar chills out a bit but then Kira accidentally flies into her line of sight so she starts going apeshit again, Shinn tries desperately to calm her down but isn't succeeding while Stellar charges the chest cannons that the Impulse is floating in front of, Kira goes "ah gently caress it" and stabs the chest cannons to stop them from firing, the Destroy blows up and Stellar gets shrapneled to death.
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May 10, 2018 04:26
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Speaking of how awesome Dub Rau is, I wouldn't want y'all to deprive yourselves. SEED was good, guys. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Awfq95GSSo
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May 10, 2018 05:56
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Kanos posted:The sequence of events is Shinn calms Stellar, Stellar chills out a bit but then Kira accidentally flies into her line of sight so she starts going apeshit again, Shinn tries desperately to calm her down but isn't succeeding while Stellar charges the chest cannons that the Impulse is floating in front of, Kira goes "ah gently caress it" and stabs the chest cannons to stop them from firing, the Destroy blows up and Stellar gets shrapneled to death. It’s not even that. Kira is just hovering there waiting to see how this all pans out, but Stellar is distracted from Shinn’s speech by something in her damaged cockpit loudly malfunctioning, which causes her to notice Kira and flip the gently caress out.
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May 10, 2018 10:27
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ImpAtom posted:Like I said though, he doesn't really? Like to use Heine's death as an example: He knocks Stellar into the water, disables Heine, and then he's distracted by Athrun. While he's distracted by Athrun, Stellar attacks him and Heine (randomly) gets between them and gets cut in half. the main point is that kira is seriously not helping in any way by doing his thing, and in fact often makes things actively worse that's what made early destiny interesting, you could tell his heart was in the right place but he wasn't really putting any real thought into the ramifications of his actions blowing up everyone's guns means nothing when they're still mad enough to want to murder each-other e: sorry to bring up srw z for the 800th time but it also goes into that with the moral of kira's character arc being "we're not saying what you did was wrong, but if you're going to stop a conflict by force you also need to take responsibility for doing so and not immediately gently caress off" Yinlock fucked around with this message at 13:35 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 13:31
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Neddy Seagoon posted:00 also justifies it by the CB Gundams being outrageously more advanced and just straight-out unkillable in most situations by conventional weapons. The Meisters have all the time in the world to sit in a battlefield just going "hey, stop that 00s1 also doesn't portray celestial being as particularly heroic which helps, and makes it way funnier when everyone's just impotently shaking their fists at these glowing magic robots that keep showing up and making GBS threads in everyone's cornflakes
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May 10, 2018 13:37
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Yinlock posted:e: sorry to bring up srw z for the 800th time but it also goes into that with the moral of kira's character arc being "we're not saying what you did was wrong, but if you're going to stop a conflict by force you also need to take responsibility for doing so and not immediately gently caress off" Never say sorry for bringing up SRWZ, it's the better, canon version of Destiny.
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May 10, 2018 13:42
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There's also Super Robot Wars L, which has a scene of Shinn asking people who knew Kira what he's like, getting some positive feedback, and then contacting Kira and working together to save Stella.
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May 10, 2018 15:25
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I like V Shinn who dunks on Athrun and doesn't care what you're talking about, he's opening fire.
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May 10, 2018 15:39
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UX Shinn is also very good, as the older twin brother and mentor to Kazuki who helps him and the other Fafner pilots deal with the good and bad of their lives.
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May 10, 2018 16:02
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Kanos posted:It's like it becomes less of a principled ethical stance(I don't want to kill people but absolute pacifism won't work so I'll just remove their ability to fight) and more of a way to feel morally superior(well those guys might all be dying but *I* certainly didn't kill any of them I think this is how someone frames it in SRWZ, that just cos he's not pulling the trigger that fires the shot that kills them himself definitely doesn't mean he's not responsible for them dying. Destiny Kira is awful.
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May 10, 2018 16:17
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EthanSteele posted:I think this is how someone frames it in SRWZ, that just cos he's not pulling the trigger that fires the shot that kills them himself definitely doesn't mean he's not responsible for them dying. Destiny Kira is awful. The best part is you see this in action gameplay-wise. There is a stage where Kira flies in and starts blasting people indiscriminately, but he doesn't kill them! He just leaves them disabled at 10 HP. Turns out that if you do that they die immediately afterwards. Kira's permanent-Mercy not actually being merciful in gameplay is a wonderfully good way to poke holes in his actions.
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May 10, 2018 16:35
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Raxivace posted:I like V Shinn who dunks on Athrun and doesn't care what you're talking about, he's opening fire. tbf shinn doesn't really do much in that game besides yell at athrun a bunch though there is the fun subplot that he still lowkey cannot stand being around kira for more than 5 seconds, which abruptly ends because GN particles akito stole the show for redeemed characters in that game e: though shinn does have an amazing intro in v athrun: these arzenal women are insane, i know ill call shinn, he is known to have a way with the ladies shinn: athrun what the gently caress Yinlock fucked around with this message at 17:58 on May 10, 2018 |
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May 10, 2018 17:55
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Halfway through SEED and it is in fact good. Some genuine emotional strings and quality mysteries setup from early on that get unwrapped at a good pace. Destiny really tints SEED badly I think in a lot of our memories, but so far half way through SEED remains highly alright. Except for those bizzaro character models that are still frequently just like WHOA WHAT HAPPENED HERE.
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May 10, 2018 18:06
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The Notorious ZSB posted:Halfway through SEED and it is in fact good. Some genuine emotional strings and quality mysteries setup from early on that get unwrapped at a good pace. and then...
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May 10, 2018 18:09
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EthanSteele posted:I think this is how someone frames it in SRWZ, that just cos he's not pulling the trigger that fires the shot that kills them himself definitely doesn't mean he's not responsible for them dying. Destiny Kira is awful. I know I keep saying good things about Loran, but that's another thing good about Loran. He acknowledges and accepts that risk! He's trying to get as few people killed as possible, but it's war. People die, and trying to keep your hands as clean as possible doesn't change that. Loran's pretty mature for a seventeen year old.
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May 10, 2018 19:37
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Yinlock posted:and then... I can't remember and there is probably a good reason.
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May 10, 2018 20:04
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The Notorious ZSB posted:I can't remember and there is probably a good reason. you'll hit the record scratch moment when someone is murdered by kira, OR tragically trips onto kira's sword depending on what version of seed you're watching after that things start getting real dumb real quick
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May 10, 2018 21:52
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Buddy of mine still likes Seed because of its unapologetically black & white morality. Murata, Creuset, and Zala are bad guys, everyone else is good and should be on the same team. gently caress yeah, giant robots. I don't put any stock in pacifism as a character trait for Kira, because no matter how much he harps on it, it's never really relevant beyond shooting down the nukes. How does he confront these thoroughly evil warmongers? They're all killed, two not even by his hand.
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May 10, 2018 23:18
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Seed and especially destiny is kinda hilarious in that it kind of undercuts it's own message by saying that people should strive to understand one another, people aren't so different, blah blah blah, At the same time, every single member of the Alliance, other than the AA Crew and maybe one general are complete psychopaths who are ecstatic at the thought of committing genocide. The coordinators are completely justified in wanting to wipe out the earth/naturals in this show. Although I am one of those guys who thinks the latter half of seed is much better than the first half.
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May 10, 2018 23:34
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Freedom is one of my fav Gundam designs so mostly I'm just pumped to have it arrive.
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May 10, 2018 23:51
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The Natural/Coordinator tension in SEED is actually pretty interesting. The real world already struggles enormously and endlessly with racial tension when the primary differences between races are superficial things like skin color, height, or facial structure. I can't imagine how venomous racial tensions would become if there was a difference in physical capability between racial groups as pronounced as the natural/coordinator divide. Being a natural in the Cosmic Era would be kind of a terrifying thing to be because coordinators exist and are explicitly designed from birth to be physically and mentally superior to you in pretty much every way and there's nothing you can ever do to close that gap. What if you're a natural programmer and the company decides to fire you in order to hire a coordinator programmer because he's genetically engineered to be good at math? What if you're a natural singer with a beautiful voice but here comes Lacus, a perfect coordinator woman who was genetically engineered to have the voice of a siren? There's a lot of stuff in the show that touches on how absolutely lovely this can be, like Sai trying to compete with Kira and realizing that he never had a chance in hell of doing so so he's forced to swallow his pride and settle, or Murata's backstory where he and his crew of rich rear end in a top hat bullies all working in tandem are still absolutely no match for a single pissed off coordinator beating the poo poo out of them. It's pretty easy to see how it would be easy to whip naturals into a froth of hatred against coordinators by stoking their feelings of fear and inadequacy. On the flip side, it's pretty easy to see how the coordinator side could give birth to assholes who wonder why they, as an objectively superior race, should condescend to coexistence with the untermenschen. Why, clearly the superior coordinators should be the ones to guide society with their genetically engineered big brains and perfect bodies that don't suffer from diseases or frailty! You get this with Durandal's big plan basically being to introduce a government controlled command economy supported by eugenics. Kanos fucked around with this message at 00:06 on May 11, 2018 |
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May 11, 2018 00:04
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Kanos posted:The Natural/Coordinator tension in SEED is actually pretty interesting. The real world already struggles enormously and endlessly with racial tension when the primary differences between races are superficial things like skin color, height, or facial structure. I can't imagine how venomous racial tensions would become if there was a difference in physical capability between racial groups as pronounced as the natural/coordinator divide. The frustrating thing about SEED is that in SEED it's really clear that Coordinators are not supposed to be the be-all/end-all of civilization and the idea that they're suffering from serious genetic flaws and are an evolutionary dead end is pretty critical to the plot. It's an interesting thing that comes up in a single significant point in Destiny (Durandal and Talia's relationship failing because they can't have kids and Coordinators are already running into breeding problems) which... never gets addressed. Like there's a *lot* about SEED's worldbuilding that is genuinely interesting and it isn't accidental because they show focuses on it. It's just that at some point they stop doing so and it becomes frustrating because it isn't like the show didn't *have* ideas, they just got shitcanned for some reason.
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May 11, 2018 00:13
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ImpAtom posted:The frustrating thing about SEED is that in SEED it's really clear that Coordinators are not supposed to be the be-all/end-all of civilization and the idea that they're suffering from serious genetic flaws and are an evolutionary dead end is pretty critical to the plot. It's an interesting thing that comes up in a single significant point in Destiny (Durandal and Talia's relationship failing because they can't have kids and Coordinators are already running into breeding problems) which... never gets addressed. Durandal and Talia's subplot was indeed meant to introduce and explore the idea that maaaaaybe coordinators aren't perfect or sustainable, but pretty much nothing else ever addresses or engages with that idea, and Durandal's Destiny Plan pretty much hinges on the idea of coordinators being a thing that can be kept going indefinitely and he's never portrayed as stupid or short-sighted. At no other point do they introduce or explore there being any downside to being a coordinator other than "naturals hate us and try to genocide us because we're genetically superior".
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May 11, 2018 00:22
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