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I want more vehicles. Needs more vehicle stompy in this game and we're missing such wonderful treats like the Vedette, the Hetzer, the Patton and Rommel, the Saracen, Saladin, and Scimitar hovertanks, and other fodder vehicles.
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May 21, 2018 00:06
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Fraction Jackson posted:As someone who has traditionally abused the poo poo out of that kind of strategy on tabletop I 
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May 21, 2018 00:08
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Taerkar posted:I want more vehicles. Needs more vehicle stompy in this game and we're missing such wonderful treats like the Vedette, the Hetzer, the Patton and Rommel, the Saracen, Saladin, and Scimitar hovertanks, and other fodder vehicles. Yeah this all sounds dope and I'd love to field vehicles for sure.
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May 21, 2018 00:11
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I need to be able to field a second lance of UM-AIVs
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May 21, 2018 00:14
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I've yet to see any urbanmechs or star league salvage in my post story game.
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May 21, 2018 00:22
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I saw an Urbanmech on Coromodir! It's pretty useless now but it's there. Also I love what a huge anticlimax the fight with Victoria is. My Crab headshot and instantly killed her crab in the first round. 
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May 21, 2018 00:33
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Alright, story complete at 56 hours in. I really liked this game. I'm hoping for more stuff obviously, and also more difficulty options in the future. The beginning was pretty tough, but once I had the Argo and could afford to really get down and dirty with mech layouts the rest of the game became a cakewalk, and I don't think I even took any structure damage in the last few story missions. The plot was standard fare, but they did a lot with slides and music and the end was pretty cool. Big stompy robots: still awesome.
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May 21, 2018 00:36
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RBA Starblade posted:I saw an Urbanmech on Coromodir! It's pretty useless now but it's there.
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May 21, 2018 00:38
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Ravenfood posted:Yeah, it could at least be a decent composition for a straight-up fight. Even without lucking out on headshots, its a bit much going into that fight with Kamea's Atlas, a KC, a LRM-boat Stalker, and the story Highlander, all tweaked. She brings like two assaults and two heavies, iirc, and just gets shut down hard. She doesn't just bring heavies, she brings a Jagermech and it hauls rear end to the front where it immediately explodes. I had four assaults who didn't get dented in the last mission, which also was Jagermechs. I really liked the game all in all. Headshots were pretty annoying, and I don't feel like the campaign structure really fits as a result of that (like if a guy has to cut out early or just dies, you have to reload in a lot of the missions because it's not really winnable any longer), but freeplaying around was a lot of fun and I like the style of the campaign itself. It took me ages to get a heavy then it just barfed them at me, but I feel like that brief moment where I had a heavy and two or three mediums was the perfect sweet spot for the game. I'm definitely going to give it another go and I look forward to any expansions. Also I feel bad for Adam Jensen, you pretty much gently caress his life
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May 21, 2018 00:57
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Disclaimer: I don't own the Battletech computer game, and am instead following a friend's playthrough pretty closely in order to determine whether or not to buy. Right now I'm not very inclined to buy, primarily because of the mobility issue. Movement was the heart and soul of tabletop Battletech (though granted, less so in the pre-XL-Engine 3025 era in which this game is set). All of the other mechanics are enriched by the movement system. Heat management makes a ton more sense as a mechanic when your accuracy is fluid and ever-changing based on terrain and positioning. Looking ahead to determine not just what would grant you good movement this turn, but in future turns, and then weighing that against heat management (do I go for broke now or will I have a better chance later?) and team positioning (am I going to get separated and wrecked by combined fire without the opportunity for my team to retaliate?) made for an interesting and dynamic game. I have yet to see any of that play out in my friend's playthrough. It pretty much looks to be "bring the biggest guns and concentrate fire smartly," which is fine but shallow. The board game was a terrain-dominated cavalry game about maintaining momentum and choosing your timing. This computer game version is an infantry game of cover, muscle, and fire support, with the XCOM DNA very apparent. That's not wrong, but I've been there and done that many times with XCOM and it's ancestors. My personal opinion aside, it does seem that the change of emphasis impacts balance: it's not really a surprise if board-game-designed light/mobile mechs fare poorly in the infantry trenches. e: Though if the developers eventually advance the timeline to the Clan era and then tweak the game to favor mobility, I'll call them geniuses who understood all along and just wanted to convey the relatively plodding feel of the 3025 era. Corbeau fucked around with this message at 01:04 on May 21, 2018 |
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May 21, 2018 01:00
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RBA Starblade posted:Also I feel bad for Adam Jensen, you pretty much gently caress his life It's fine. He died doing what he loved most: Screaming grandiose bullshit about his dead son.
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May 21, 2018 01:07
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Gotta love the Fraction Jackson rule
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May 21, 2018 01:10
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Night10194 posted:It's fine. He just He didn't ask for this
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May 21, 2018 01:13
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RBA Starblade posted:Also I feel bad for Adam Jensen, you pretty much gently caress his life Oooohhhhh, that's who that was. I kept thinking he sounded like an evil Nathan Fillion. He was being very unreasonable at the end, TBH. I was actually really surprised you never fight him, now that I think about it. He talked a lot of yang (seriously, his sentences were monologues) for someone Farah ganked with a computer virus, Independence Day-style.
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May 21, 2018 01:15
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:How the gently caress do I install BTML? https://github.com/Mpstark/ModTek/wiki/The-Drop-Dead-Simple-Guide-to-Installing-BTML-&-ModTek-&-ModTek-mods
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May 21, 2018 01:16
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Omar_Comin posted:Since you're not the only person that has been having trouble with it, here is the guide to doing it: The problem was that I downloaded the source code.
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May 21, 2018 01:20
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Could you give us a breakdown of what you mean by emphasising mobility and how this game fails at it? From my understanding, movement speeds and ranges are identical to the boardgame.
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May 21, 2018 01:21
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Xarbala posted:Gotta love the Fraction Jackson rule This is my favourite example of demonstrating why every idiot saying the table top rules were tried and tested are loving wrong.
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May 21, 2018 01:27
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Tabletop evasion doesn't get reduced by attacks or special abilities. Also jumpjets give a flat bonus to evasion on top of that.
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May 21, 2018 01:27
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Hit rates in this game are vastly better than in tt. So always be firing, drat the heat. In tt heat would also gently caress you over a lot quicker, and also no bulwark, or brace in tt.
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May 21, 2018 01:29
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I feel like it's a little weird how your mechs can't actually be destroyed too. They can be totally blown to pieces and in two weeks you're good as new. I don't know how you'd make losing them fun though. Partial salvage to repair cored mechs would suck if you never see it again, as an example. It's just funny to me how at the end I was hawking three to four Ancestral Heirlooms a month.
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May 21, 2018 01:32
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Do you think it would be worth doing a full conversion of the game to TT rules? Or is the map design and such too radically different for it to work? Possibly as a MP mod?
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May 21, 2018 01:35
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:Do you think it would be worth doing a full conversion of the game to TT rules? Or is the map design and such too radically different for it to work? Umm.... that would require completely redesigning the initiative system and most of the game. So good luck modding all that out lol.
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May 21, 2018 01:38
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:The problem was that I downloaded the source code.
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May 21, 2018 01:42
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kingcom posted:Umm.... that would require completely redesigning the initiative system and most of the game. So good luck modding all that out lol. Mechanically I mean. Hit chances, ranges, damage, etc
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May 21, 2018 01:42
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Randallteal posted:Oooohhhhh, that's who that was. I kept thinking he sounded like an evil Nathan Fillion. He was being very unreasonable at the end, TBH. I was actually really surprised you never fight him, now that I think about it. He talked a lot of yang (seriously, his sentences were monologues) for someone Farah ganked with a computer virus, Independence Day-style. Yeah I was hoping he'd realize that his son's death was all on Espinosa's mechanics and he'd show up to help us or warcrimes the capital and we'd have to stop him. Crashing his jumpship into a pancake was decent tho.
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May 21, 2018 01:45
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Synthbuttrange posted:Yeah I was hoping he'd realize that his son's death was all on Espinosa's mechanics and he'd show up to help us or warcrimes the capital and we'd have to stop him. Crashing his jumpship into a pancake was decent tho. I like the one mech in the cutscene that's just busting rear end out of there. "gently caress that!"
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May 21, 2018 01:46
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Xarbala posted:Tabletop evasion doesn't get reduced by attacks or special abilities. Also jumpjets give a flat bonus to evasion on top of that. Then add-in Nimble Jumper just to be an rear end in a top hat, which makes the jumping 'Mech even harder to hit in exchange for a slightly higher penalty to shoot. Sure, it gives you an additional penalty to hit, but what Wraith, Spider, Venom, or Outscout gives a poo poo? They even gave the Spider accurate weapon (medium lasers) to compensate and turn it into the biggest little monster in 3025 play. The funniest 'Mech with Nimble Jumper is still the Panther. Not because it's good, mind you, but because lol the Panther. They did give it improved targeting (short) to try to compensate but a Panther that's jumping shouldn't be shooting and vice versa. Edit: To elaborate further: the Spider is one of the few 'Mechs (along with the Ostscout) that can reach a coveted +4 move mod with its jump jets. Nimble jumper pushes that up to a +5, meaning that if you're facing a veteran (3 gunnery) enemy, they have less than a 50% chance to hit the Spider at point-blank range if they're standing still and the Spider jumped that turn. If that attacking unit moves even a little (even just to turn to face the Spider that just jumped behind it) the odds of its shots hitting the Spider drops to slightly better than 25% PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 02:00 on May 21, 2018 |
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May 21, 2018 01:54
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:Could you give us a breakdown of what you mean by emphasising mobility and how this game fails at it? From my understanding, movement speeds and ranges are identical to the boardgame. Since the TT game operates on the 2d6 probability curve, and this era features typically mediocre pilots plus no accuracy boosting gear, whether or not you get hit in a TT game depends much more on your movement choices and ranges. In this game a +4 to hit penalty is 20% no matter what, but in TT that +4 to hit could move your chances of landing a shot from 40% to 2%. In practice, in my opinion, 3025 play that plays out at exactly TT rates of movement/shots hitting would be miserably abominably slow and boring in a PC game. Think like you're at point blank range shooting at a Target that didn't move and you still only have a 60% chance to hit. This game also leaves out other TT penalties to hit from things like being at medium range. I would be really really shocked if a pure 1:1 tt conversion was not tried and then dumped in the trash very early on in development. Gwaihir fucked around with this message at 01:58 on May 21, 2018 |
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May 21, 2018 01:54
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:Mechanically I mean. Hit chances, ranges, damage, etc I don't think it's that simple. Slavish adherence to tabletop values has been to the detriment of most (if not all) prior adaptations of the game (including, I would argue, later editions of the tabletop rules that remain stuck in the past). Remember that tabletop Battletech was an unbalanced mess; even with it's problems, this computer adaptation is almost certainly better balanced than the board game was. I'll see about pulling together an effortpost later, but I'm having trouble finding concrete numbers for the computer version for comparison.
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May 21, 2018 01:58
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Randallteal posted:Alright, story complete at 56 hours in. I really liked this game. I'm hoping for more stuff obviously, and also more difficulty options in the future. The beginning was pretty tough, but once I had the Argo and could afford to really get down and dirty with mech layouts the rest of the game became a cakewalk, and I don't think I even took any structure damage in the last few story missions. The plot was standard fare, but they did a lot with slides and music and the end was pretty cool. Big stompy robots: still awesome. I like the story's being consciously structured as Space Feudalism as possible. Some people cling to honor and vengeance! These people tend to die in very large explosions at the hands of someone who planned ahead. Some people style themselves mastermind plotters! These people tend to die in very large explosions at the hands of a hothead they failed to take seriously enough. Some people have incredibly large and powerful giant robots! These people die of being turned to jelly in their cockpits so I can loot them. In conclusion, your entire civilization is structured extremely stupidly, but as long as you are willing to pay the good people of the Transactional Justice company, as represented by Power Lunch (Slas Grasshopper), Winning Smile, (2x AC20 King Crab) Legal (Sniper Highlander) and The Financials (LRM Stalker), let the good times roll.
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May 21, 2018 01:58
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Gwaihir posted:Since the TT game operates on the 2d6 probability curve, and this era features typically mediocre pilots plus no accuracy boosting gear, whether or not you get hit in a TT game depends much more on your movement choices and ranges. Granted I think I'm doing that wrong when I have them stand still for 5 turns as the mech closest to the enemy in order to protect my hosed up and exposed parts galore heavy lance. "Yes. Come closer enemy lance. I'll be able to hit you with my medium lasers that way." Section Z fucked around with this message at 02:02 on May 21, 2018 |
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May 21, 2018 01:58
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Xarbala posted:Tabletop evasion doesn't get reduced by attacks or special abilities. Also jumpjets give a flat bonus to evasion on top of that. also woods gives a to-hit penalty instead of damage reduction
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May 21, 2018 02:04
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Sandwich Anarchist posted:Could you give us a breakdown of what you mean by emphasising mobility and how this game fails at it? From my understanding, movement speeds and ranges are identical to the boardgame. The speeds and ranges are about the same, but the effects of them are different, in part because it's very easy to hit in this game. In tabletop a "good" chance to hit is anything above 50% (well, 57%, because bell curves with multiple dice and so on). Even about 40% is usually okay. The difference between, say, moving 4 hexes and moving 5 hexes (the difference, say, between the walk speed of a Centurion and the walk speed of a Trebuchet) can shift the odds of being hit by 15% or so depending on where you are on the probability curve, whereas evasion pips are 5% apiece or whatever. Similarly, the difference between being at short range and being at medium range for weapons can be as much as 25%-30%. Terrain like woods also reduces the chance of getting hit, rather than providing cover. As a result, if you have a relatively fast mech, you can use movement, terrain and the range brackets of certain weapons to manipulate the odds in your favor. It is not the only way to play, but a good player with lights and mediums (or fast heavies) can beat assaults without it feeling like an upset or whatever. Mechs like the Wolverine-6K are tremendously good in tabletop because of their ability to let you math the opponent to death, but in this system they're a nice early game pickup but will be forgotten about by the time you have a Grasshopper or a Thunderbolt-5SE. Xarbala posted:Tabletop evasion doesn't get reduced by attacks or special abilities. Also jumpjets give a flat bonus to evasion on top of that. Also this - you can't just grind through someone's ability to not get hit. None of this, for me, is a criticism of either iteration of BattleTech - I love the tabletop game but I also have like 85 hours into the HBS game already, and I really do love the feel of it. But the rulesets do encourage different playstyles and incentivize different force selections as a result. And I think this has been kind of a tradition with PC game adaptations of BTech anyway. Even going back to MW2: Mercs or MechCommander, speed has always been less important in the PC game world than it is on tabletop, and gritty slugging matches are usually the order of the day. And that's fine! But I do understand where some people are coming from with wanting a more robust metagame where fast units have more utility. I think the best way to get that feel, if someone wanted to mod the game that way, would be: reduce hit chances across the board, double the effect of evasion pips, (or use that one mod that doubles the number you generate but keeps the gradient the same, so that it takes longer to burn through them), increase the penalties for not being at optimal range for weapons, and increase vision distances so running around at range is actually possible. I don't think it's really necessary to change the game in that way, but for people who want that kind of feel, that's the things I would look at changing.
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May 21, 2018 02:08
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Corbeau posted:I don't think it's that simple. Slavish adherence to tabletop values has been to the detriment of most (if not all) prior adaptations of the game (including, I would argue, later editions of the tabletop rules that remain stuck in the past). Remember that tabletop Battletech was an unbalanced mess; even with it's problems, this computer adaptation is almost certainly better balanced than the board game was. I think you'll find that the disconnect is far far larger in SP play than in multiplayer, because the SP game's pilots are all effectively 0/0 in TT terms by half way through at worst. If your 3025 game is running with 0/0s, no move mod a L1 tech mech can generate will matter, they're going to get hit. The fixed mp pilot selection and balanced numbers is a much better representation of "feel" because it's absolutely a battle of maneuver vs the SP slugging fest. The mp pilots are either generalists with only mid range skills all around or are specialists with one very high skill but garbage others.
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May 21, 2018 02:12
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I think that the changes in style are aimed at accelerating the entropy of combat. In a system where you can be evasive and cause a lot of shots to miss, combat can take much longer. Sometimes comically long, in the case of evasion-based-designs dueling with 3025 tech (where anything fast and armored can't mount jack poo poo in terms of guns). That's not a great player experience, and I'm pretty sure it was a significant driver behind the changes that Clan tech brought to the board game: faster and more deadly mechs in the mid-range speed classes. Clan pilots were also better, on average, meaning the damage output went up even higher despite the improvements in speed (and thus evasion). Games actually end in this environment. I suspect that the greater accuracy and evasion-stripping are a way to accomplish that without 3050s mech designs. e: Gwaihir posted:I think you'll find that the disconnect is far far larger in SP play than in multiplayer, because the SP game's pilots are all effectively 0/0 in TT terms by half way through at worst. If your 3025 game is running with 0/0s, no move mod a L1 tech mech can generate will matter, they're going to get hit. Could be; I think the board game starts to break down once you get past 2 or 3 in gunnery. Especially when everyone is mounting the equivalent of a targeting computer (that allows called shots for missile weapons, no less). Corbeau fucked around with this message at 02:21 on May 21, 2018 |
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May 21, 2018 02:17
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That sounds like a good guess.
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May 21, 2018 02:19
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Why the gently caress does this stupid loving game keep on crashing every time I start it after the first run. I love this game but I'm getting really sick and tired of having to reset my computer every time I want to play it; is there a setting or something I need to change?
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May 21, 2018 02:21
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Corbeau posted:I suspect that the greater accuracy and evasion-stripping are a way to accomplish that without 3050s mech designs. I think this is probably right.
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May 21, 2018 02:23
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Fraction Jackson posted:I think the best way to get that feel, if someone wanted to mod the game that way, would be: reduce hit chances across the board, double the effect of evasion pips, (or use that one mod that doubles the number you generate but keeps the gradient the same, so that it takes longer to burn through them), increase the penalties for not being at optimal range for weapons, and increase vision distances so running around at range is actually possible. I don't think it's really necessary to change the game in that way, but for people who want that kind of feel, that's the things I would look at changing. What do you mean by this? Looking at TT rules, say, a Large Laser has ranges for Short, Medium, and Long. What's considered optimal?
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May 21, 2018 02:59
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