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Nuke referenda from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. I'm not saying there's never been a good one (because there have been many good ones), but they are--as a rule--god awful. I also think it gives legislators too much of an out to abdicate their responsibility. "Well, if people really wanted this to happen, they'd put it on the ballot!"
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May 18, 2018 20:36
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Thanatosian posted:Nuke referenda from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
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May 18, 2018 20:38
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Thanatosian posted:Nuke referenda from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Washington just had that one where we were trying to change how we prosecute cops for murdering our own citizens that freaked everybody out and had to be quickly legislated around.
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May 18, 2018 20:40
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Teabag Dome Scandal posted:Washington just had that one where we were trying to change how we prosecute cops for murdering our own citizens that freaked everybody out and had to be quickly legislated around. Legislating around it was unconstitutional and tim eyman sued the state to get it put on the ballot.
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May 18, 2018 21:35
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Thanatosian posted:Nuke referenda from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
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May 18, 2018 21:38
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Cicero posted:It's just not practical. Why not?
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May 19, 2018 08:23
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I said why in literally the same post.
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May 19, 2018 09:46
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http://portlandtribune.com/pt/9-news/396051-289860-house-passes-business-tax-break-expansion Our government sucks
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May 22, 2018 04:02
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Chomskyan posted:http://portlandtribune.com/pt/9-news/396051-289860-house-passes-business-tax-break-expansion I think it's working as intended, and that sucks.
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May 22, 2018 05:47
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The kid that set the gorge on fire got sentenced. The thing I'm noticing most from online discourse is that people from out of state really don't understand how devastating the fire was.
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May 22, 2018 10:43
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Reene posted:The kid that set the gorge on fire got sentenced. I understand the impact, but he’s a kid it’s not like he really understood what the impact of his actions were. if some fireworks were enough to do that there could’ve been any number of things that could’ve started the fire. Fires happen, insurance pays for the damage. The people claiming the fire has ruined the environment forever don’t know poo poo about fires and their impact on the environment. But also boohoo at the people who are complaining about their view being ruined.
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May 22, 2018 16:04
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Tacoma races to the bottom I hope Rainier erupts and gives them the Pompeii treatment.
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May 22, 2018 17:18
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ElCondemn posted:I understand the impact, but he’s a kid it’s not like he really understood what the impact of his actions were. if some fireworks were enough to do that there could’ve been any number of things that could’ve started the fire. Fires happen, insurance pays for the damage. The people claiming the fire has ruined the environment forever don’t know poo poo about fires and their impact on the environment. But also boohoo at the people who are complaining about their view being ruined. If a massive, devastating, fire happens because of a lightning strike then that's poo poo luck; if a massive, devastating, fire happens because a teenager throws homemade fireworks into a wooded area during a fire ban and then tries to flee the scene as fast as possible, I don't think you can argue "boys will be boys". Also, a large part of the economy for that region is dependent on tourism to those woods that burned down, so I think the residents have a right to complain about "the view being ruined" when it means they might not have an income.
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May 22, 2018 17:30
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I'm not saying "boys will be boys", I'm saying people make mistakes, especially when they're teenagers. A teenager is basically the same as a lightning strike in my eyes. If the woods are their primary source of income I'm not really sure what to say about that, that sucks, but lighting strikes sometimes. Also I was commenting on the person they quoted in the article who literally said "I get to look at torched Angel's Rest every day. It will never be the same".
ElCondemn fucked around with this message at 17:43 on May 22, 2018 |
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May 22, 2018 17:38
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It's likely that the fundamental problem was poo poo forest management. They probably put out the fires every time they start, instead of letting smaller fires burn off the detritus, which set up the conditions necessary for a big-rear end fire like that one.
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May 22, 2018 17:43
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Even Smokey has this figured out now.
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May 22, 2018 17:51
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If anime has taught me anything all we need to do to restore the forest is to find and kill the forest god
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May 22, 2018 17:53
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ElCondemn posted:I'm not saying "boys will be boys", I'm saying people make mistakes, especially when they're teenagers. A teenager is basically the same as a lightning strike in my eyes. If the woods are their primary source of income I'm not really sure what to say about that, that sucks, but lighting strikes sometimes. Hachi machi
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May 22, 2018 17:56
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HEY NONG MAN posted:Hachi machi What does this mean?
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May 22, 2018 17:59
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ElCondemn posted:What does this mean?
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May 22, 2018 18:03
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Honestly the kid should just kill himself. It's clearly what the state and people, "affected," by the fire are wanting from reading the article. Trees are serious business.
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May 22, 2018 18:03
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anthonypants posted:If you believe that 15-year-olds don't understand the impact of their actions and should be absolved of violent crimes, likening them to semi-random acts such as lightning strikes, then what's the analogy for school shooters? Earthquakes? Floods? Yes, I think children who do hosed up things are misguided and don't understand the impact of their actions. Sorry to be so controversial!
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May 22, 2018 18:04
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If a 15 year old with readily acquired supplies can gently caress up your economy, the problem is you have fundamentally structured society poorly, not that specific 15 year old.
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May 22, 2018 18:06
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twodot posted:If a 15 year old with readily acquired supplies can gently caress up your economy, the problem is you have fundamentally structured society poorly, not that specific 15 year old.
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May 22, 2018 18:09
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I always wonder how much leeway the judges have with these things. Realistically the moron throwing firecrackers is never going to have 36 million dollars, but that's no excuse to just not make him pay every possible cent he can. I vaguely remember a probably STDH story from when I was a kid about how a drunk driver supposedly was ordered to pay the family of the kid he ran over a dollar a week by check for life, and I feel like an income-scaled version of that would be appropriate here.
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May 22, 2018 20:44
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Steve Jorbs posted:Honestly the kid should just kill himself. It's clearly what the state and people, "affected," by the fire are wanting from reading the article. Trees are serious business. That wouldn't be necessary if they would just release his name already.
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May 22, 2018 20:51
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Javid posted:I always wonder how much leeway the judges have with these things. Realistically the moron throwing firecrackers is never going to have 36 million dollars, but that's no excuse to just not make him pay every possible cent he can. quote:Hood River County District Attorney John Sewell dismissed what he called Morris' rant about Measure 11 and countered that state law does give the judge some leeway, such as halting payments after 10 years if the teen stays out of trouble or deciding not to garnishee wages.
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May 22, 2018 21:17
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you hit the kid with the $36 mil bill so that if/when another person or entity is responsible for similar damage there is precedent for taking them to the cleaners. If they had let him off with a small fine then you better believe that the private industry that causes a similar disaster in the future will fight tooth and nail to get the reduced cost.
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May 22, 2018 21:18
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IM DAY DAY IRL posted:you hit the kid with the $36 mil bill so that if/when another person or entity is responsible for similar damage there is precedent for taking them to the cleaners. If they had let him off with a small fine then you better believe that the private industry that causes a similar disaster in the future will fight tooth and nail to get the reduced cost. I feel like needing precedence has never been much of a requirement for private industry to skate by. I almost feel like this kid was railroaded with such a high fine for that reason alone. Do you have an example of a individual fine influencing the application of a fine to a corporation?
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May 22, 2018 21:51
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Thanatosian posted:Tacoma races to the bottom I was incredibly embarrassed to see this, and especially embarrassed to see old acquaintances posting this on Facebook as something to be proud of. Don't worry Tacoma, with King County residents buying up our real estate and sending rent prices skyrocketing, we'll all be homeless soon enough. Or moving to barfo places like Parkland or Graham. Just for fun a few months ago I checked out rent prices at the first placed I lived post-college and saw that rent there for a 1bdr has nearly doubled since 2008, and utilities are no longer included. Guess what's happened to my wages since 2008! (Small hint: they certainly haven't doubled!) Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 22:18 on May 22, 2018 |
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May 22, 2018 22:16
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ElCondemn posted:Yes, I think children who do hosed up things are misguided and don't understand the impact of their actions. Sorry to be so controversial! I agree with you. It seems like there are a not insignificant number of people who believe teenagers can be held accountable as adults but only when it comes to crime and nothing else. It's bizarre and disgusting.
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May 23, 2018 00:15
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The fine was set by the judge with a specific note about Oregon state law that allows for leniency after ten years and with regards to wages. It was absolutely about quantifying the damage clearly to make an impression about how serious what he did was, as well as setting precedent, while also explicitly giving him a chance to not ruin the rest of his life. He was 15, not 5. A 15 year old is not an adult but neither are they a child incapable of understanding that their actions have consequences, especially when it was pointed out to him by a passerby that what they were doing was dangerous and they laughed it off and said there was nothing they could do about it if a fire started. In general I am kind of sick of people making excuses for teenage boys when they do poo poo like this. He does not deserve to wash his hands of it and walk off scott free with a shrug because ~boys will be boys~ after burning 5% of the entire state to the ground and making it rain ashes over Portland for a week. If this was a genuine accident that would be different, but it wasn't. He deserves a consequence commensurate with what he did and which strives for genuine restitution and rehabilitation, and having that fine hang over his head while he does ~1900 hours of community service with the forest service is just that.
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May 23, 2018 01:02
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gently caress that kid anyway. At fifteen you are absolutely capable of comprehending what you are doing when you throw fireworks into dry brush during fire season. He won't end up paying 36 million dollars anyway so you can stop handwringing about the poor child. Oh and if it was a black kid he'd probably be serving some serious jail time, so I guess if you need me to I can play the world's tiniest violin for him. Professor Beetus fucked around with this message at 01:28 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 01:23
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Reene posted:The fine was set by the judge with a specific note about Oregon state law that allows for leniency after ten years and with regards to wages. It was absolutely about quantifying the damage clearly to make an impression about how serious what he did was, as well as setting precedent, while also explicitly giving him a chance to not ruin the rest of his life. I don't give a poo poo if he has to write apology letters and do 1900 hours of community service, good, that will definitely get the point across and maybe even make him a better person. What I don't understand is pinning a 36 million dollar fine on him that will potentially impact the rest of his life. Even if he's a piece of poo poo and continues to be one, I don't see how ruining the future of a 15 year old makes society or anyone involved better. What you're advocating is ruining a child's life for something they may not have fully thought through. He wasn't thinking like a normal rational person, he was with a group of his friends and did something he didn't fully think through. I have a friend who had to get skin grafts all over his legs because he was doing stupid poo poo with fire as a teen, he wasn't thinking about the consequences like a normal rational adult would. Pretending like this kid and his friends understood the real impact of what they were doing doesn't make sense to me. DrNutt posted:gently caress that kid anyway. At fifteen you are absolutely capable of comprehending what you are doing when you throw fireworks into dry brush during fire season. He won't end up paying 36 million dollars anyway so you can stop handwringing about the poor child. He might've thought it would just burn something small, maybe he didn't think peoples lives weren't at risk, you really think that he thought he might kill people with his actions and did it anyway? No loving duh won't be paying 36 million because normal people don't earn that much in their wildest dreams. What it will definitely do is make it hard for him to afford poo poo like a home and to provide for himself and his family. Acting like he'll get leniency later is loving stupid. DrNutt posted:Oh and if it was a black kid he'd probably be serving some serious jail time, so I guess if you need me to I can play the world's tiniest violin for him. What is your point here? Because people are racist this kid should have his life ruined too? ElCondemn fucked around with this message at 01:48 on May 23, 2018 |
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May 23, 2018 01:42
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ElCondemn posted:I don't give a poo poo if he has to write apology letters and do 1900 hours of community service, good, that will definitely get the point across and maybe even make him a better person. What I don't understand is pinning a 36 million dollar fine on him that will potentially impact the rest of his life. Even if he's a piece of poo poo and continues to be one, I don't see how ruining the future of a 15 year old makes society or anyone involved better. This, more than anything else, is the right opinion. Sit back and think about all the stupid rear end poo poo you've done in your life and the worst possible consequences that might have come of it. You have without fail done poo poo that had a worst possible outcome far greater than the forest fire. If you've driven a car you've almost certainly had a willful momentary lapse of attention that very well could have killed somebody even if it didn't and 99% of the time doesn't. Most of the time this stuff works out, sometimes the worst possible outcome comes to pass. There should be plenty of consequences to show other people not to do it and to show that actions have consequences, but this fine crosses a line that even 10,000 hours of community service doesn't. The former you're really hurting his chances to ever succeed in this lovely rear end economic system we have. I mean, it's better than prison, but holy poo poo, people don't always think of the huge consequences their mundane actions can have. Let's not talk about this kid like he's a rapist (esp. re: "boys will be boys" comments).
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May 23, 2018 01:50
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All he has to do is not be a fuckup for ten years; it's likely his wages won't even be garnished unless he manages to obtain a high-paying job somewhere. Then he is not only no longer culpable for the remainder of the fine, it's expunged from his record entirely. That is not "ruining a child's life."
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May 23, 2018 01:53
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ElCondemn posted:No loving duh won't be paying 36 million because normal people don't earn that much in their wildest dreams. What it will definitely do is make it hard for him to afford poo poo like a home and to provide for himself and his family. Acting like he'll get leniency later is loving stupid. Maybe you should go back and read the loving article, because he absolutely will be eligible for leniency later, and this isn't going to destroy his life. poo poo, the 1900 hours of community service might even open up a number of possibilities for him down the line, because white kids get treated like people who made mistakes and are capable of redemption. My point about race is that if he was a black kid he'd probably get thrown in jail for at least ten years and then his life would actually be pretty loving ruined.
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May 23, 2018 01:55
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Why are you guys tripping over your own dicks to defend this shithead kid? This is bizarre as hell.
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May 23, 2018 02:03
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HEY NONG MAN posted:Why are you guys tripping over your own dicks to defend this shithead kid? This is bizarre as hell. I don’t much like the tendency to demonize people based on a single event. I dislike the shithead theater of righteous anger. I very much despise retributive justice. I also try to have empathy for people, including people who gently caress up big. Kids’ brains (including 15 year olds) don’t work the same way adults’ do. I’m not saying you shrug your shoulders and give him a stern talking too. But ten years (or longer) worth of financial consequences strike me as unreasonably harsh for what amounts to something plenty of the people moralizing in this thread have done (even if they didn’t win the worst possible outcome lottery).
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May 23, 2018 02:14
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HEY NONG MAN posted:Why are you guys tripping over your own dicks to defend this shithead kid? This is bizarre as hell. Probably a bunch of goons who did the same poo poo.
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May 23, 2018 02:15
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