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Blazing Ownager posted:To be fair he realizes he's a shitheel by the end and apologizes for it. It's not like they play this off as the right call. Yeah pretty much everyone is like, "aren't you going a little fast?" and "you're her doctor,isn't this unethical?" and he's like "Augments do everything fast!  " and "not anymore!  ", but he realises he was pushing her into it in the end so thats something I guess.
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May 21, 2018 23:03
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BLT Clobbers posted:Computer, create an adversary capable of defeating DTs Someone should do a short of the adventures of Moriarty in Simulation World. So much amusing potential there. Maybe they'll check on him in a few decades and it'll be a Khan situation. "The code was corrupted! We were trapped in digital hell!" EvilTaytoMan posted:Yeah pretty much everyone is like, "aren't you going a little fast?" and "you're her doctor,isn't this unethical?" and he's like "Augments do everything fast! At least it's written in a way where you know the writers know that Bashir is being wrong. Nothing is worse than when a character is written to do something wrong and the writers seem to think it's the decision that God himself would decree not to be questioned (i.e. Voyager) Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 23:11 on May 21, 2018 |
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May 21, 2018 23:06
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I just remembered how ham handed O'Brien's first characterization was in TNG. After getting married O'Brien realizes he hates eating Keiko's lovely kelp logs all the time and that they know nothing about each other. So he convinces her to try his culture which means he feeds her potatoes and sings an Irish dirge.
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May 21, 2018 23:11
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Can I just say while there are worse episodes and series, the single most infuriating Star Trek episode to me is the one where Worf's brother wants to save some people from a planet that's going to blow up and even has a plan to do it without them realizing they helped and they say "No. It's our duty to zap the popcorn and watch the planet explode, saving no one. We can't interfere!" The only reason anyone dies at all is they didn't help him and Worf's human brother is basically sent into exile because of saving some people. Like somewhere along the line they took "Don't interfere with a developing culture" with "Don't save a culture from certain doom, even quietly, unless they have warp drive. gently caress everyone else." Like every single time the whole Prime Directive thing comes up anywhere it comes off as less protecting people (as the original series seemed to treat it) from interference and more about almost religious dogma to not help anyone, ever, in case "they might evolve into being bad guys." It's the interstellar equivalent of believing it's your moral duty to leave a baby on the road in rush hour traffic because he could grow up to be a serial killer, and it's only correct to help people of ages 12 and up; everyone else is on their loving own. ED: Once again DS9 proves superior as every time the Prime Directive gets brought up, people give a stink eye look and say to ignore that poo poo or loophole around it or just flat out lie and do what they need to anyway.
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May 21, 2018 23:13
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Blazing Ownager posted:Can I just say while there are worse episodes and series, the single most infuriating Star Trek episode to me is the one where Worf's brother wants to save some people from a planet that's going to blow up and even has a plan to do it without them realizing they helped and they say "No. It's our duty to zap the popcorn and watch the planet explode, saving no one. We can't interfere!" The only reason anyone dies at all is they didn't help him and Worf's human brother is basically sent into exile because of saving some people. Picard was going to let that planet of long fingered savages die until the little girl Data had contacted started begging for help. However when that 1990s workout club planet wanted to execute Wesley Crusher he basically told everyone to gently caress off and beamed out.
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May 21, 2018 23:19
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VictorianQueerLit posted:Picard was going to let that planet of long fingered savages die until the little girl Data had contacted started begging for help. Hmm, what was the first example of the former? Maybe that very episode (Pen Pals)? Wasn't that season 2? Are there any examples of the latter after that?
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May 22, 2018 01:13
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Blazing Ownager posted:Like somewhere along the line they took "Don't interfere with a developing culture" with "Don't save a culture from certain doom, even quietly, unless they have warp drive. gently caress everyone else." Like every single time the whole Prime Directive thing comes up anywhere it comes off as less protecting people (as the original series seemed to treat it) from interference and more about almost religious dogma to not help anyone, ever, in case "they might evolve into being bad guys." Star Trek operates on the idea that every species has a capital-D Destiny, and that it is wrong and immoral to interfere with Destiny. Whoops the Sperglaxian homeworld is exploding, well the Sperglaxian Destiny was to die in a planetary explosion and it is Bad and Wrong to interfere. It's one short step away from religious belief in what happens when you defy the will of god, and that step solely consists of Picard saying religion is an outdated concept in a different episode.
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May 22, 2018 02:26
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What if that planet was a planet of Hitlers? Do you really want to be responsible for saving that?
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May 22, 2018 02:30
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For some reason I always thought the prime directive came about because the federation gave warp technology to the Klingons and created their own worst enemy in space. They came up with the rule when the Klingons used it to conquer worlds instead of being peaceful explorers, and knew it was their fault. Was that in one of the books or am I imagining that completely?
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May 22, 2018 02:36
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The General posted:What if that planet was a planet of Hitlers? TOS.jpg
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May 22, 2018 02:55
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The Fuzzy Hulk posted:For some reason I always thought the prime directive came about because the federation gave warp technology to the Klingons and created their own worst enemy in space. They came up with the rule when the Klingons used it to conquer worlds instead of being peaceful explorers, and knew it was their fault.
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May 22, 2018 03:08
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I liked how The Orville took the Prime Directive head-on and shined a light on how short-sighted it was. Sure a race saw the executive officer as a goddess, they were barely bronze-age. If it hadn't been her, it would've been a tree, a place, or someone else.
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May 22, 2018 03:10
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Blazing Ownager posted:Can I just add that the Dominion arc is one of the best war arcs I've seen on a show even though a lot of people hate it (i.e. Trekkies that hate awesome space action) If you're going to do a war in a show, you need to actually have some camera time devoted to it, and how it effects things and people, or else it feels hollow. STD's take on the Klingon war sort of felt like that since we really only get 2-4 episodes that really deal with it. Pretty much the second episode and when they get back into the fight even give an inkling as to what is happening besides occasionally saying "we're losing" or showing a PPT of them losing territory. Also it should pretty much be canon that there are no more Miranda class ships after the war. I think I counted like 5 getting blasted in a single episode.
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May 22, 2018 03:11
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Miranda class ships actually do grow on trees.
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May 22, 2018 06:00
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The General posted:What if that planet was a planet of Hitlers? Do you really want to be responsible for saving that? I mean everyone is saying this sort of thing tounge in cheek but it's sort of true right? Like comparisons to leaving babies in roads or whatever I think sort of twists the scale of the problem here. If I save a baby's life the odds of them growing up and doing something terrible on a huge scale is super low. But like the galaxy is full of civilisations and things that have different cultures that would seem barbaric to the federation. I mean look at us, we cut people open for surgery, replace limbs with crude false limbs, some areas of the planet execute criminals, we fight wars over territory and resources. You can't be everywhere and protect every early civilisation in the galaxy from everything, and if you do what if they then become their own threat to the galaxy? Or even just a neighbouring star system where they genocide an entire planet all become you diverted that asteroid? Do you save all races in this way? Or just the ones you think are worthy of saving? If there was a literal race of Nazis, think 1985 and Germany won the war and purged the planet of everyone they didn't like. Should you save them from an asteroid? The whole thing is a potential minefield, then on top of that you have the risk that your foolproof way of secretly saving them isn't so fool proof (which happens in the episode with Word's brother) meaning you contaminate a race and effect their natural development. Not just in the sense that they may be space Hitler and you have them technology, but if you think it's wrong for the Federation to go around brainwashing people with their beliefs and feel they should be convinced, you'd want to avoid it too. The idea on paper is sound. You can't be everywhere and save every race, and it becomes and ethical minefield when you consider some of the races you may come across that you could save but morally are reprehensible. The issue is that they seem to break it on a whim with no consequences. Like that episode with data's young girl on the planet. They could have made it a whole thing where they didn't interfere and they had huge debates, then the planet blows up or whatever, and the crew and angry and stuff. You never actually see an episode where they say "man this feels wrong" and then really explore what it would feel like to the crew to watch a civilisation die because of the prime directive. Basically the Measure of a Man but not "what is life?" but "why should we not interfere on the development of other cultures?". Hell they could even make some political references to times other countries in our history interfered in the running of others. Kitchner fucked around with this message at 08:57 on May 22, 2018 |
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May 22, 2018 08:53
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VictorianQueerLit posted:I don't know which was worse, expecting the audience to immediately understand "Klingon=Ultra Badass" and then using the severity of the rear end beatings laid down on Worf as an indicator of the danger or the overcorrection from that turning Worf into the One-True-Klingon who is actually the biggest badass that had ever lived. I don't remember Worf's youth being retconned aside from that as a kid he accidentally killed another kid playing sports and that's why he tries so hard to be stoic all the time, so he doesn't accidentally hurt someone lashing out again (shoulda talked with some Vulcans about that, or maybe not), also a fun reference to the novel Gladiator.
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May 22, 2018 09:27
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He was originally a Klingon weeaboo that was found as a child and raised by really nice earth parents. Later in DS9, once Michael Dorn was a main character, Worf had suddenly spent a bunch of time on Badass Warrior planet undergoing rituals and speaking directly with Kahless to find out there was a prophecy that he was The One True Most Important Klingon and instead of getting backhanded over luxurious chairs every ten minutes he is actually the galaxy's greatest warrior. It seemed like a similar concept to Kevin Sorbo being given more creative control over Andromeda and turning his character into the galaxy's biggest swinging dick and "Chosen One."
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May 22, 2018 09:38
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Kitchner posted:If there was a literal race of Nazis, think 1985 and Germany won the war and purged the planet of everyone they didn't like. Should you save them from an asteroid? Do they have warp capabilities? If not, they definitely don't get any help.
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May 22, 2018 09:47
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The General posted:Do they have warp capabilities? If not, they definitely don't get any help. I think the logic is if they have mastered faster than light travel they are sufficiently developed enough to be treated as an actor on the galactic stage with everything that goes along with that. Pre-warp it would basically be unfair to judge them either way as worthy or not of saving. This of course does fall down a bit because the Prime Directive was then stretched not just to apply to Pre-warp civilisations but literally any civilisation. The Federation cannot be interfering in the internal politics of other planets Jean Luc. *Does exactly that but its OK because its the Romulans or whatever*
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May 22, 2018 09:56
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Basically Picard should have been court martialled a long time ago and so should have Sisko. This is before you remember now that it is canonical that in a first contact style war with the Klingons the Federation authorised the genocide of Qo'nos
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May 22, 2018 09:58
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Kitchner posted:Basically the Measure of a Man but not "what is life?" but "why should we not interfere on the development of other cultures?". Hell they could even make some political references to times other countries in our history interfered in the running of others. It's also worth mentioning that Literal Hitler Planet was explicitly because of Federation interference.
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May 22, 2018 10:41
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VictorianQueerLit posted:He was originally a Klingon weeaboo that was found as a child and raised by really nice earth parents. What I find weird about the retcon of him spending some time as a child on Qonos with Klingon relatives after he got adopted by the Rozenkos is why his Klingon relatives never bothered to adopt him first? Presumably the Rozenkos looked for any living relatives of Worf first before adopting him. Just seems kind of odd especially considering he was supposed to be a member of an important House.
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May 22, 2018 11:36
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Thanks again thread for introducing me to The Expanse. I just found out that it's cancelled, and thus probably won't bother with season 3. Happy two year anniversary, thread!
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May 22, 2018 13:14
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mom and dad fight a lot posted:Thanks again thread for introducing me to The Expanse. I just found out that it's cancelled, and thus probably won't bother with season 3. Well you're behind the times. It's been saved by Amazon, and a fourth season is confirmed already  .
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May 22, 2018 13:26
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mom and dad fight a lot posted:Happy two year anniversary, thread! Jesus Christ what am I doing with my life...
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May 22, 2018 13:37
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Well you're behind the times. It's been saved by Amazon, and a fourth season is confirmed already Good to know. Last I'd heard was only that there were discussions with Amazon.
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May 22, 2018 13:57
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VictorianQueerLit posted:He was originally a Klingon weeaboo that was found as a child and raised by really nice earth parents. I watched DS9 not long ago and I don't remember any of this. The episode with Worf's suicidal brother even goes to pains to point out how disconnected Worf is from regular Klingon society and values compared to his brother, who laments that he'd have rather been raised on Earth with him, or him on Kronos, than have the cultural gulf they do. Hell, Kor and Martok end up way more important to Klingon society in the long run.
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May 22, 2018 14:05
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Neddy Seagoon posted:Well you're behind the times. It's been saved by Amazon, and a fourth season is confirmed already This is not true. It was a single article with a click bait “EXPANSE SAVED” headline. The article just repeated what we already know; they’re in talks with Amazon. The writers tweeted out that it’s misleading.
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May 22, 2018 14:52
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TTerrible posted:This is not true. It was a single article with a click bait “EXPANSE SAVED” headline. The article just repeated what we already know; they’re in talks with Amazon. The writers tweeted out that it’s misleading. Aww  .
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May 22, 2018 15:03
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I know The Expanse thread got riled up by it. 
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May 22, 2018 15:05
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May 23, 2018 02:49
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 I love Deep Space 9
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May 23, 2018 06:12
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Ghost Leviathan posted:I watched DS9 not long ago and I don't remember any of this. The episode with Worf's suicidal brother even goes to pains to point out how disconnected Worf is from regular Klingon society and values compared to his brother, who laments that he'd have rather been raised on Earth with him, or him on Kronos, than have the cultural gulf they do. Hell, Kor and Martok end up way more important to Klingon society in the long run. yeah, it's not a retcon, ds9 actually shows him doing that stuff. he hadnt done it yet and he does feel this super disconnect to his culture so he starts doing poo poo like going to qo'nos and trying to have kahless vision quests and he's often bummed to see how little actual Klingon poo poo resembles the concept he has in his head. but he ends up spending so much more time with actual Klingons on ds9, and he marries a lady who was great at keeping him grounded, and he has great character growth because of it (culminating in peak worf: season seven worf, captured by the breen along with ezri and held prisoner by damar and weyoun, is worf's finest moment and the culmination of years of character development that finally achieves climax as worf demonstrates for weyoun the dangers of dropping your guard around him)
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May 23, 2018 07:45
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i'd say peak worf was when he was in a dominion prison with garak and martok and his superhuman ability to take a beating won the day. like yeah, it was about his tenacity and strength of character and it was a really good scene, but it was still worf getting worfed so hard that all the jem'hadar stood up and clapped.
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May 23, 2018 09:11
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gimme the GOD drat candy posted:i'd say peak worf was when he was in a dominion prison with garak and martok and his superhuman ability to take a beating won the day. like yeah, it was about his tenacity and strength of character and it was a really good scene, but it was still worf getting worfed so hard that all the jem'hadar stood up and clapped. Yeah, that was a surprisingly good for a Worf themed one. The Risa one where he joins Greenpeace or whatever was kind of dumb though
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May 23, 2018 09:20
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mods change my name posted:The Risa one where he joins Greenpeace or whatever was kind of dumb though Possibly the worst episode of DS9. Worf hates fun so much he joins a terrorist group? Yeah, no.
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May 23, 2018 09:24
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Starfleet is hilarious because the only example of anyone that faces any sort of disciplinary action is Tom Paris. Joining a terrorist group or going on a slaughter quest for klingon artifacts is a ok
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May 23, 2018 09:44
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The unspoken rule seems to be that if you break the rules and succeed you won't get anything worse than a reprimand. But if you break the rules and fail your rear end is grass. Starfleet loves winners.
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May 23, 2018 09:48
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Starfleet is full of corruption and nepotism. Pretty much every captain should have been in prison except Archer, and he only gets a pass because the laws didn't even exist yet. Picard and Janeway both saved the Borg for fucks sake.
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May 23, 2018 09:51
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Lwaxana straight up convinces a dude to defy the sacred rituals of his planet and petition Picard for asylum and nothing of consequence happens (except the dude commits suicide I guess). This woman is supposed to be a federation ambassador.
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