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Inshallah soon our jihadi brethren will defeat the Dog of Damascus, Assad. Don't worry, minorities have historically thrived under wahabbi rule
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Jun 2, 2018 02:59
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Radio Prune posted:Murdering 400 innocent Sunni men women and children in Baniyas and Bayda to prop up a literal fascist totalitarian police state that allows the ruling aristocracy to loot the country with neoliberalism is my kind of Marxist praxis. While horrible things happen in war. I mean, it's better then having the country torn apart like Libya has been.
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Jun 2, 2018 03:00
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Crowsbeak posted:While horrible things happen in war. I mean, it's better then having the country torn apart like Libya has been. Is this satire?
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Jun 2, 2018 03:14
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If I was the President of a country and I was unpopular enough that I had to run death camps, kill hundreds of thousands of people, and make half the population homeless in order to cling to power, I would just resign. That's why Ben Ali and Victor Yanukovich are smarter than all the other dictators frequently brought up in this thread. Instead of dropping nerve gas and artillery on protesters, they just ran away with a suitcase full of money when poo poo got bad enough.
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Jun 2, 2018 03:26
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Sergg posted:If I was the President of a country and I was unpopular enough that I had to run death camps, kill hundreds of thousands of people, and make half the population homeless in order to cling to power, I would just resign. That's why Ben Ali and Victor Yanukovich are smarter than all the other dictators frequently brought up in this thread. Instead of dropping nerve gas and artillery on protesters, they just ran away with a suitcase full of money when poo poo got bad enough. What happened then is not relevant of whether America should overthrow Assad now.
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Jun 2, 2018 04:00
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Crowsbeak posted:
Welp that settles it fellas, you saw the picture, pack it all in. Crowsbeak posted:Yep, that's pretty much it. Lmao, at least you're honest about this instance of utter self interest, there are more than 8 times more Sunnis than Shiites so of course they commit more terrorist attacks, and most western Muslims are Sunni to boot, you're scared of that group of Muslims you think could bomb something near where you live and letting this idiotically unlikely concern determine your dumb opinions on the Middle East and lapping up anything that reassures that fear no matter how noxious it is. Crowsbeak posted:What happened then is not relevant of whether America should overthrow Assad now. ITS STILL HAPPENING!
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Jun 2, 2018 04:18
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Grape posted:So the people were in the right to want more rights and not a dictatorship, but they are also the bads who burned down the country because they rebelled to achieve this end? Am I parsing this correctly? Timeline wasn’t really a part of it. Before bombs were dropping, Libya’s sovereign wealth fund was seized to help fund the rebels. When seizing 32 Billion from the state, the support was already there. I am saying this intervention hurt the country more than letting them win(maybe Ghadaffi would have lost, but the bombs dropping decisively turned the tide). Yes, people have a right to rebel or fight for a better life. Their actions didn’t give them a better life. In 2010 Ghadaffi was talking about getting rid of a ton of ministries and doing direct payments towards the people. I am not saying “they” were wrong. But “they” are a very disparate group of people, as the results bear out. Don’t directly intervene in civil wars ideally. Don’t bother quoting how Syria proves that wrong, the west and the gulf and Turkey all had their fingers in the pie within the first year.
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Jun 2, 2018 04:29
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They hate us for our freedom but from the left lol.
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Jun 2, 2018 04:29
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khwarezm posted:Welp that settles it fellas, you saw the picture, pack it all in. It’s more than the number if you count them proportionately as well. Shiites(Iran as the majority state) don’t commit terrorist attacks in Western capitals. Maybe it’s due to the centralization of their religious system. Maybe it’s due to Saudi Arabia and other gulf state monarchies exporting Jihad since the Great mosque seizure. Either way that argument doesn’t hold.
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Jun 2, 2018 04:34
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Coldwar timewarp posted:It’s more than the number if you count them proportionately as well. Shiites(Iran as the majority state) don’t commit terrorist attacks in Western capitals. Maybe it’s due to the centralization of their religious system. Maybe it’s due to Saudi Arabia and other gulf state monarchies exporting Jihad since the Great mosque seizure. Either way that argument doesn’t hold. You haven't provided any actual data to back this up and regardless of anything it would still be an insipid, deeply prejudiced thing to hold against Sunni people, akin to going 'well Black people commit more crime, it's just a fact! So watch out!'.
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Jun 2, 2018 04:40
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khwarezm posted:You haven't provided any actual data to back this up and regardless of anything it would still be an insipid, deeply prejudiced thing to hold against Sunni people, akin to going 'well Black people commit more crime, it's just a fact! So watch out!'.  Like, is there any debate that Wahabism currently holds a disproportionate sway over Sunni Islam, and that it's extraordinarily destructive? (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 2, 2018 05:06
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Crowsbeak posted:
Considerable
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Jun 2, 2018 05:18
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Crowsbeak posted:When said religious terrorists are also a threat to the world? Yes. Oh btw they're also threats to both a regime that does everything for it's people. Which Gadaffi's did, and the PYD. Not that you care. Y'know I always kind of thought a big philosophical undercurrent of Marxist thought was being inherently cynical and skeptical about hierarchy and people with power over others. But hey I was pretty sure Christianity wasn't big on ostentatious wealth either, and well y'know. Dumb finds a way.
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Jun 2, 2018 05:32
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Reminder that the Iraqi Shiite militias were beheading children on video and dragging bodies behind cars when they retook Tikrit. I'm the person who posted the Human Rights Watch article in this thread. Every interview with every militia commander demonstrated that they killed all military-aged Sunni males on sight.
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Jun 2, 2018 05:38
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Coldwar timewarp posted:Timeline wasn’t really a part of it. Before bombs were dropping, Libya’s sovereign wealth fund was seized to help fund the rebels. Timeline is definitely part of it when you framed Gaddafi as somehow not sharing any blame with a war happening. And really you are way overselling the damage caused by the war, hell Tripoli basically was taken with little fanfare let alone destruction. And the most hosed up large city was Misrata, courtesy of Gaddafi's forces. The mess and anarchy the country is facing is more the vacuum left behind after the regime was gone than the war itself. And to that extent I would agree that it's quite disgusting that NATO would rush in to help the rebels like some sort of hero, and then wander off immediately once the regime was done. "Ok, the creep is gone, the pressure on the international community is off. Enjoy your void of authority amid a sea of free flowing guns and stuff, toodles." I don't even particularly think Libya would have had that much challenge getting back on it's feet all things considered. It's pretty drat homogenous, small population, decent location. Syria was the kind of place that immediately set off clanging red "BOSNIA TIMES TEN" potential sirens even during the very early protests. But Libya? Naw. And yet... So yeah basically wham bam thank you maaming it, of course it would allow it to splop into the unhappiness of now. quote:Yes, people have a right to rebel or fight for a better life. Their actions didn’t give them a better life. In 2010 Ghadaffi was talking about getting rid of a ton of ministries and doing direct payments towards the people. I am not saying “they” were wrong. But “they” are a very disparate group of people, as the results bear out. Yeah sure, but tut tutting people for having the gall to overthrow a dictator and having to endure a grinding aftermath is some really hot take my man. Get critical of NATO all you want, but if a population rises up we really shouldn't be harumphing them from our first world armchairs. Especially since our own histories usually have unpleasant rocky transitional eras just like this. Like seriously, look at how many kings, emperors, and false starts the French tripped through before actually reaching some semblance of stable democracy.
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Jun 2, 2018 05:50
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Crowsbeak posted:
I am shocked, SHOCKED, that the communist guy who seems less into economic theory and more into cameo suited strongmen, has posted this very right-wing sounding thing!
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Jun 2, 2018 05:52
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Sergg posted:Reminder that the Iraqi Shiite militias were beheading children on video and dragging bodies behind cars when they retook Tikrit. I'm the person who posted the Human Rights Watch article in this thread. Every interview with every militia commander demonstrated that they killed all military-aged Sunni males on sight. Yes, sectarian war makes cycles of conflict. I wonder if Iraq would be like it was if the USA hadn't toppled Sadamm. Also one has to wonder if the Wahabi terrorists that were active in the early 2000s, blowing up shias while they were at worship might have lead to a horrible escalation. Grape posted:I am shocked, SHOCKED, that the communist guy who seems less into economic theory and more into cameo suited strongmen, has posted this very right-wing sounding thing! I actually am very much into economic theory. You see, you can't trust comfortable liberals who only whine about some far off despot doing bad things to be an ally in the internal conflict for workers revolution. Also please explain why intervention helps anyone.
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Jun 2, 2018 06:01
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NO WAR BUT CLASS WAR I bellow, as I select which side of the sectarian conflict is inherently savage and due for a round of massacres.
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Jun 2, 2018 06:04
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes, sectarian war makes cycles of conflict. I wonder if Iraq would be like it was if the USA hadn't toppled Sadamm. Also one has to wonder if the Wahabi terrorists that were active in the early 2000s, blowing up shias while they were at worship might have lead to a horrible escalation. lolll "Indeed sectarian violence is a tragic and confuddling endless cycle. But the loving Sunnis started it."
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Jun 2, 2018 06:07
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Grape posted:NO WAR BUT CLASS WAR I bellow, as I select which side of the sectarian conflict is inherently savage and due for a round of massacres. So can you explain why intervention is good. Also I suggested America started the conflict in Iraq. Really most of the problems of the Middle East for the last twenty years are either America, or Saudi Arabia's fault.
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Jun 2, 2018 06:07
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Crowsbeak posted:
Yes that's flat out, completely wrong. The single most prestigious conference of Sunni scholars (that represents a substantial majority of the Muslim population, which btw is mostly in SE asia) routinely issues statements disavowing salafists. Wahabi influence in Sunni Islam throughout the middle East is marginal outside of a couple hotspots. Like god drat dude you need to do some background reading. As of a couple of years ago salafists were under a half of a percent of Muslims.
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Jun 2, 2018 06:10
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Herstory Begins Now posted:Yes that's flat out, completely wrong. The single most prestigious conference of Sunni scholars (that represents a substantial majority of the Muslim population, which btw is mostly in SE asia) routinely issues statements disavowing salafists. Wahabi influence in Sunni Islam throughout the middle East is marginal outside of a couple hotspots. Not even all of Saudi Arabian Sunnis are Wahhabi, the Hejaz is predominately pretty mainline.
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Jun 2, 2018 06:15
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Shia tend to get blown the gently caress up in Arab countries and Pakistan as well. This isn’t blaming Islam, this is blaming a minority inside of a majority. I don’t blame people for animalistic tendencies against those who attack them, on the whole. It’s pretty normal. More normal than hating someone who just looks different or whatever.
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Jun 2, 2018 06:20
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Grape posted:Not even all of Saudi Arabian Sunnis are Wahhabi, the Hejaz is predominately pretty mainline. Yeah and it's hard to even describe how poorly wahabis are viewed to the many varieties of more mainstream Sunni Islam. Hell even the people most sympathetic to them in SA are exporting them specifically because they're seen as a disruptive, dangerous force for instability.
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Jun 2, 2018 06:24
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Crowsbeak posted:Yes, sectarian war makes cycles of conflict. I wonder if Iraq would be like it was if the USA hadn't toppled Sadamm. Or if they hadn't attempted to put someone in power that instituted sectarian policies that disenfranchised Sunnis and responded to their protests with violence, resulting in an outbreak of violence and terrorism. But hell, most of them were filthy wahhabists anyways, so what can you do? Haditha and Houla. That's the only way to deal with terrorists amirite.
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Jun 2, 2018 06:37
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Imagine how much worse it would've been if Bashar wasn't there to torture American detainees for information on their terroristic plots. You can't be weak on these savages.
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Jun 2, 2018 06:45
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Volkerball posted:Imagine how much worse it would've been if Bashar wasn't there to torture American detainees for information on their terroristic plots. You can't be weak on these savages. ...is a thing that would be said in absolute seriousness prior to 2011, except for the part about savages. The temporarily frustrated lanyards are generally a little smarter than to say that out loud. They'd have meant it, though, and anyone who'd care to listen would've heard just fine.
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Jun 2, 2018 07:17
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I remember in 2005 when news sites were publishing articles about how prolific torture was by security forces in Baghdad. Sunni bodies were found covered in burn marks with their knees, elbows, and genitals all bored out with power drills. I remember all the right-wing blogs talking about how those savage Muslim terrorists deserved it, and how those awesome Baghdad security forces were helping us do our job.
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Jun 2, 2018 07:30
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I suppose there is a, shall we call it a 'realpolitik' argument, that if you totally ignore anything internal to Syria, it was less trouble to every other country to have Assad in full control. If you ignore the mass torture and murder of his own people, having ferret face in charge was "better" as a crushed, submissive population didn't affect other countries compared to the eruption of violence and refugees and so on has done. But it's at best a morally empty position that strips the Syrian people of agency, and quite repulsive to think about approving, at least to me.
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Jun 2, 2018 07:31
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So how is government formation in Iraq going? Is Moqtada’a party going to be in government or not?Herstory Begins Now posted:Yes that's flat out, completely wrong. The single most prestigious conference of Sunni scholars (that represents a substantial majority of the Muslim population, which btw is mostly in SE asia) routinely issues statements disavowing salafists. Wahabi influence in Sunni Islam throughout the middle East is marginal outside of a couple hotspots. He stated it backwards, but are you seriously contesting that Islamist terrorism is overwhelmingly Sunni in denomination? If your whole point is ‘ACTUALLY wahabbist terrorism is a subset of Sunnism not the other way around’ you’re pretty dumb, sorry
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Jun 2, 2018 07:33
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I interrupt our regularly scheduled Hypothetical Moral Argument About Syria In Ideal Conditions 5 Years Ago to bring you some current news: Saudi Arabia, one of the countries blockading Qatar, has threatened military action against its Gulf neighbour if it acquires the Russian-made S-400 aerial defence system https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/06/saudi-threatens-military-action-qatar-400-report-180601165304449.html LOL the blockade is a year old now and still going.
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Jun 2, 2018 07:38
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icantfindaname posted:So how is government formation in Iraq going? Is Moqtada’a party going to be in government or not? Iraq: Vote fraud allegations trigger recount, fear of turmoil Electoral commission cancelling results from more than 1,000 polling stations used in this month's parliamentary vote. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/05/iraq-vote-fraud-allegations-trigger-recount-fear-turmoil-180530172719595.html
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Jun 2, 2018 07:45
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Crowsbeak posted:Really it's in everyone's interest to crush Wahabis? Then why did the US government arm Wahabis in both Syria and Libya? The US government did not arm any groups with an explicitly Wahabist agenda in either Syria or Libya although our erstwhile ally Qatar did. During the Libyan intervention most armed groups which fought to depose Qadafi lacked any coherent ideology, with the split between Islamists and secularists appearing after Qadafi was overthrown. Today the Libyan groups closest to the United States are secular Misratans, who have no issue fighting ISIS or other Islamists. Most notably they were employed to purge the town of Sirte of IS with US air support. In Syria the US made a concerted effort to prevent American equipment from falling into the hands of takfiri factions like al Nusra, initiating the expensive and ultimately unsuccessful effort to create reliable and not crazy rebel groups. When that effort proved unsuccessful assistance was abandoned. The US probbly did provide equipment like radios and trucks to groups that were or were associated with Islamists, but arms were more restricted, and today are almost solely provide to the decidely not Islamist SDF. The SDF has received the lion's share of all US military assistance in Syria.
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Jun 2, 2018 08:05
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. When I say peoples liberation struggles I of course mean the Syrian Peoples struggle to retake Golan, the Afghanis struggle to destroy the vile system that the Saudis sought to perpetuate in the 80s.
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Sergg posted:I remember in 2005 when news sites were publishing articles about how prolific torture was by security forces in Baghdad. Sunni bodies were found covered in burn marks with their knees, elbows, and genitals all bored out with power drills. I remember all the right-wing blogs talking about how those savage Muslim terrorists deserved it, and how those awesome Baghdad security forces were helping us do our job. I love when this happens. A picture of Iranian troops got unwittingly upvoted to the top of r/the_donald this year, for being better than those "sjws" who don't know how to deal with the mooslem
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Jun 2, 2018 08:06
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icantfindaname posted:So how is government formation in Iraq going? Is Moqtada’a party going to be in government or not? Still nothing but rumors.
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Jun 2, 2018 09:23
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Volkerball posted:Or if they hadn't attempted to put someone in power that instituted sectarian policies that disenfranchised Sunnis and responded to their protests with violence, resulting in an outbreak of violence and terrorism. But hell, most of them were filthy wahhabists anyways, so what can you do? Haditha and Houla. That's the only way to deal with terrorists amirite. Rust Martialis posted:
Really Morally Empty? I mean is it morally right for the USA to overthrow various countries and leave the peoples of those countries worse off then they were before American invasion? Crowsbeak fucked around with this message at 12:56 on Jun 2, 2018 |
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Jun 2, 2018 12:53
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Crowsbeak posted:Why do you think it was good to overthrow Sadamm? It's funny, *Saddam being knocked out of power was literally the only positive thing of the entire Iraq war, yet for you it seems to be your only complaint.
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Jun 2, 2018 13:17
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Volkerball posted:It's funny, *Saddam being knocked out of power was literally the only positive thing of the entire Iraq war, yet for you it seems to be your only complaint. Yes, knocking over a guy who kept the peace was a great move right..... I think this says all that needs to be said about you and your compatriots here.
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Jun 2, 2018 13:36
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Yeah, like how we're not fascists.
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Jun 2, 2018 13:41
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Crowsbeak posted:Really Morally Empty? I mean is it morally right for the USA to overthrow various countries and leave the peoples of those countries worse off then they were before American invasion? The question has nothing to do with my prior statement.
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Jun 2, 2018 14:42
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