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Droyer posted:The secret is that the best Tomino names are in non-gundam shows. Consider Shott Weapon and Kitten Kitten. Please don't disparage my good friend Yoshiyuki Tomino like that. Her name is Kitty Kitten, thank you very much. Guy Goodbody posted:On the other hand, Zuchini Nicchini My favorite thing about that is that Klim Nick is actually a shorter version of Klimton Nicchini. Imagine how you'd shorten Zuchinni's name.
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Jun 4, 2018 21:08
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Frontal's economic plan might have some merit if the Federation didn't have a vastly larger military force to suppress the colonies with. By the time of Unicorn the Zeon remnants are so thinly stretched that Frontal's Sleeves had to call on the last remaining Zeon sympathizers on Earth to do the Torrington operation, and when the time came to stand up to Nahel Argama's taskforce and Zinnerman's defectors, they got slaughtered. Mineva is right that trying to cut Earth off from the colonies would only galvanize them against spacenoids further, and the Federation has proven incredibly able to bounce back from disasters.
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Jun 4, 2018 21:32
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Droyer posted:The secret is that the best Tomino names are in non-gundam shows. Consider Shott Weapon and Kitten Kitten. Bring Stabity
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Jun 4, 2018 21:38
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Caros posted:Bring Stabity Not Tomino
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Jun 4, 2018 21:45
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Droyer posted:The secret is that the best Tomino names are in non-gundam shows. Consider Shott Weapon and Kitten Kitten. man i never knew much about aura battler and i was not prepared for the name "shott weapon" in srw x i still can't quite comprehend it
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Jun 4, 2018 22:01
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Arcsquad12 posted:Frontal's economic plan might have some merit if the Federation didn't have a vastly larger military force to suppress the colonies with. By the time of Unicorn the Zeon remnants are so thinly stretched that Frontal's Sleeves had to call on the last remaining Zeon sympathizers on Earth to do the Torrington operation, and when the time came to stand up to Nahel Argama's taskforce and Zinnerman's defectors, they got slaughtered. also zeon has just finished trying to destroy earth for like the 3rd or 4th time in a row maybe dial it back a bit guys
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Jun 4, 2018 22:02
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Yinlock posted:also zeon has just finished trying to destroy earth for like the 3rd or 4th time in a row Even when Zeon had the Federation on their knees during ZZ they blew it. How do you manage to screw up so badly after your enemies have just gutted themselves in a civil war?
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Jun 4, 2018 22:20
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Arcsquad12 posted:Even when Zeon had the Federation on their knees during ZZ they blew it. How do you manage to screw up so badly after your enemies have just gutted themselves in a civil war? Magic teenagers with super robots
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Jun 4, 2018 22:30
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Not Tomino, but I feel like Khamen Khamen is pretty good too. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwAzPEDyHsQ
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Jun 4, 2018 23:49
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No one brought up Fixx Bloodman or Bork Cry? For shame. And the point of this whole exercise is that Gundam is notorious for having amazingly stupid names and they're wonderful and I love it.
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Jun 4, 2018 23:51
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Spelling Mitsake posted:Magic teenagers with super robots If only the Flanagan Institute hadn't blown up Zeon could have locked down that economy.
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Jun 4, 2018 23:51
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Arcsquad12 posted:Even when Zeon had the Federation on their knees during ZZ they blew it. How do you manage to screw up so badly after your enemies have just gutted themselves in a civil war? I mean, in the context of the show the answer was "destroy yourself in your own civil war"
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Jun 4, 2018 23:54
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Zeon always finds a way to totally gently caress itself over. It's clockwork. In fighting, coups, treacherous subordinates, pointless resource sinks on one off units no one will use beyond being wasted by some Feddie ace.
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Jun 5, 2018 00:11
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Omnicrom posted:No one brought up Fixx Bloodman or Bork Cry? For shame. His son is also named Bork.
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Jun 5, 2018 00:44
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The funny thing is zeon keeps thinking they'll get support from the colonies. I want a show where some zeon bigwig is boasting about uniting spacenoids against earth only for some colony survivor from Riah or Moore to point out that the first people zeon attacked were other spacenoids, not earthers. Char only had the colonies backing because he had made strides as a public figure during zeta with the Dakar speech and he didn't attack spacenoids. But after char what does zeon have left? Some half baked cyber clone who hasn't read up on his history, and a bunch of raging former zabi supporters.
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Jun 5, 2018 00:47
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Arcsquad12 posted:The funny thing is zeon keeps thinking they'll get support from the colonies. I want a show where some zeon bigwig is boasting about uniting spacenoids against earth only for some colony survivor from Riah or Moore to point out that the first people zeon attacked were other spacenoids, not earthers. They're based out of Axis because Side loving 3 doesn't want them. How bad did you gently caress up when the people you want to liberate/install as conquering rulers give you a GTFO notice?
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Jun 5, 2018 00:53
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Arcsquad12 posted:The funny thing is zeon keeps thinking they'll get support from the colonies. I want a show where some zeon bigwig is boasting about uniting spacenoids against earth only for some colony survivor from Riah or Moore to point out that the first people zeon attacked were other spacenoids, not earthers. You know who else hates Zeon? Zeon! Side 3 was even pro Titans because they hated the Zabis that much. It's pretty funny.
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Jun 5, 2018 00:53
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Arcsquad12 posted:The funny thing is zeon keeps thinking they'll get support from the colonies. I want a show where some zeon bigwig is boasting about uniting spacenoids against earth only for some colony survivor from Riah or Moore to point out that the first people zeon attacked were other spacenoids, not earthers. Part of that might be because most of the colonies after the OYW were repopulated with people moved from Side 3's colonies, or at least that's something I remember reading somewhere once, would definitely explain a lot of things about the Titans better
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Jun 5, 2018 01:56
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Arcsquad12 posted:The funny thing is zeon keeps thinking they'll get support from the colonies. I want a show where some zeon bigwig is boasting about uniting spacenoids against earth only for some colony survivor from Riah or Moore to point out that the first people zeon attacked were other spacenoids, not earthers. Unicorn probably tried the hardest of any show to present the idea that some colonists support Zeon by showing the downtrodden shitheap of Palau where the colonists had literal shrines to Zeon.
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Jun 5, 2018 02:19
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Kanos posted:Unicorn probably tried the hardest of any show to present the idea that some colonists support Zeon by showing the downtrodden shitheap of Palau where the colonists had literal shrines to Zeon. It wasn't actually a shrine to Zeon, it was pretty clearly some stripe of Christian church. The whole point of the scene (and it's a really drat good scene and Marida Cruz was the best character in Unicorn, gently caress you Riddhe) was that it sucked to live in space and people needed something to believe in as a kind of defense mechanism because of how much it sucks to live in space. Marida brought Banagher there to this forgotten church to make the point that Zeon replaced these former faiths, Zeon became less a political entity or a coherent ideology and became more a kind of religious icon, that Zeon would light the way and make things wonderful for the people of space. Honestly it's probably the most coherent reason given for why anyone would have continued to endorse Zeon after they continuously committed atrocities and lost every war it ever fought in. Unicorn kind of has it both ways though, depicting Zeon's supporters variously as these heroic and downtrodden lost causers, as well as sad and trapped people struggling in the grip of a toxic ideology. Once again Unicorn would probably have been better if it was in a totally new setting and it actually could have pretended this continuity's Zeon analogues weren't actually Imperial Japanese Space Nazis.
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Jun 5, 2018 03:11
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Omnicrom posted:Honestly it's probably the most coherent reason given for why anyone would have continued to endorse Zeon after they continuously committed atrocities and lost every war it ever fought in. Unicorn kind of has it both ways though, depicting Zeon's supporters variously as these heroic and downtrodden lost causers, as well as sad and trapped people struggling in the grip of a toxic ideology. Once again Unicorn would probably have been better if it was in a totally new setting and it actually could have pretended this continuity's Zeon analogues weren't actually Imperial Japanese Space Nazis. The problem is mostly that every other depiction of colony life we've ever seen pre-Unicorn paints them as clean, high-tech suburban paradises with light manufacturing centers. Palau being a dingy shithole works for the theme they're trying to push but it feels really out of place compared to places like Green Noa or Side 7. Even Shangri-la, a place with loving mountains of garbage being picked through by children, is portrayed as having clear skies and sunlight.
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Jun 5, 2018 05:01
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Kanos posted:The problem is mostly that every other depiction of colony life we've ever seen pre-Unicorn paints them as clean, high-tech suburban paradises with light manufacturing centers. Palau being a dingy shithole works for the theme they're trying to push but it feels really out of place compared to places like Green Noa or Side 7. Even Shangri-la, a place with loving mountains of garbage being picked through by children, is portrayed as having clear skies and sunlight. Its almost like Unicorn is actively and clumsily retconning UC to function better as a cudgel for the writers political beliefs or something
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Jun 5, 2018 05:10
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Arcsquad12 posted:Char only had the colonies backing because he had made strides as a public figure during zeta with the Dakar speech and he didn't attack spacenoids. "oh sure quatro, we've been helping him out he's on the level, give mr vagina my regards" "actually he's going by char now" "oh gently caress"
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Jun 5, 2018 05:49
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At least part of Palau's reason for being a shitheap is that it's a resource asteroid with a 1G habitat section. Presumably there's other places like it though probably less than before.
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Jun 5, 2018 06:55
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Yeah I got the impression that Palau was by no means being depicted as a typical colony by any stretch, but a place that a) was primarily kinda a dingy space mining town and b) was neglected enough by Fed authorities for Zeke revivalists to coalesce there.
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Jun 5, 2018 10:47
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Kanos posted:Even Shangri-la, a place with loving mountains of garbage being picked through by children, is portrayed as having clear skies and sunlight. I wonder how much of the colonial angst has to do with the existential dread of having your entire community wiped out at a single stroke. In real life, I don't think a city could be wiped out as thoroughly as a space colony by anything short of nuclear warfare or a sustained campaign of ethnic cleansing. The UC began with a terrorist attack that destroyed the Laplace colony with only a fairly minor adjustment to one of its mirrors-- and that was the prime minister's home, not just Space Australia. On multiple occasions we see populations wiped out when chemical weapons are introduced into these enclosed spaces. It seems like Amuro's home colony would have been wiped out by a single exploding mobile suit if the White Base hadn't been there to evacuate the citizenry-- so what would happen normally? And that's only acts of terrorism and warfare; God only knows how many early colonies had accidents that had similarly shocking casualties. Gundam never really lets you forget how easy it is for the world to end when you're living in a tin can in space. We've seen how the threat of nuclear war or terrorism can affect a nation's psyche; now imagine that you know that there are people who don't have to live with that, and it's their fault you have to live in such dangerous conditions.
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Jun 5, 2018 12:47
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Monaghan posted:Administrators in government are government officials in the executive branch, not the layman. Government administrators are layman. They're not a special class of people or anything. Almost anyone can become one, and it's not even a particularly privileged position in much of the world. Local Councillors are administrative officials, and half decent businessmen in the local community often have more say than them in local matters. Civil servants are technically administrative officials, depending on how you want to interpret the phrase (though Google tells me that America has a stricter usage of the phrase than Europe for instance). Monaghan posted:adminstration of government implies decision making power of some degree Not to me it doesn't. All it means to me is "is allowed to be part of the government". Monaghan posted:Furthermore, the document also says "given priority". Priority over whom? No-one. The wording seems pretty clear that it's priority in the chronological sense, as in "don't drag your heels on this for 40 years and then pretend it's still something you give a poo poo about". Which, by the way, does happen. Not in government charters, but does happen in governments. Several US territories were initially declined statehood by the Supreme Court around 1900, with the decision saying that they weren't ready yet but that it should only be deferred for a time while they acclimated to the US. A century or more later and not only has it still not happened, I doubt most US citizens could even tell you it was a thing that was at one point supposed to happen. My outsider's perspective makes it seem like most US citizens don't even realize the US has territories, never mind that they're not treated the same as the rest of the US. Monaghan posted:Do they get more of a say than other non-space adapted spacenoids? The whole wording of the document is a complete mess. Other non-space adapted Spacenoids shouldn't need any. It's a measure against exclusion, not preferential treatment. Space adapted people are likely to be classed as different in some form and could be stigmatized in some way based on this otherness. Which is exactly what happened. By including a stipulation that they be included, it goes some way to minimizing the chances of that. Excluding non space adapted humanoids is basically excluding yourself (i.e. the person writing the document) from the government. The people writing that charter didn't foresee that there'd be sociological stigma between Earth and Space living people, or that Earth would rule space with no facility or opportunity for people living in space to rule themselves going by Unicorn and weren't attempting to halt that because they didn't foresee it; only halt stigma based on something else they thought might happen. Monaghan posted:Because it's never brought up before Deikun, until Unicorn retcons it. Deikun's actual philosophical discussion about Newtypes is never brought up in UC; only the word. Which he ascribed to the phenomena, and which became popularized because he followers used it. Some of whom didn't even believe it was a thing by the sounds of it, since Gihren seems to just be using the term to rally people and have no faith in the actual reality of it. Laplace's Box doesn't even use a specific word and doesn't ascribe any kind of detail; it basically just says "hey, if space mutants evolve that can deal with the rigors of space life better than regular humans let's not stigmatize them". Which is obviously meant to be blue sky thinking with no particular agenda or even vision behind it. The other deleted provision being "let's start doing some research just in case aliens" should make that clear. The guy(s) writing the document didn't foresee what Newtypes would be, and may not even have thought them likely; it was a "just in case" proviso meant to enshrine some hope in to their government given that they were going through a crisis and it was felt hope was necessary for what was happening. Even the cafe owner Mineva talks to episode 4 mentions that people felt hope was necessary if I recall. If it helps, don't read it as "new type", read it as "space mutants" since that might help disassociate what the charter was talking about from the specific term Deikun used. Unicorn obviously wants to play to that association, but I wonder if maybe it hasn't caused more headache and if it wouldn't have been better off just using a more general phrasing that didn't play to franchise's history. Monaghan posted:Deikun's claim was more of a philosphical thing- it wasn't something that was enshrined in a legal document. It was also the basis for his political beliefs, which became the cornerstone political movement of Zeon the faction. Kanos posted:Then Unicorn has the government write something similar to newtype theory into a document written 60 years before Zeon came up with it and I guess literally everybody forgot about it or agreed not to talk about the idea anymore, despite the indisputable fact that enshrining something into a government document would require a fair amount of people to be aware of it? The people who were pushing it died, the people who weren't pushing it but just knew about it were given money to silence them and/or didn't care that much since it was a minor clause that wasn't actually affecting anyone and wouldn't do so for 60 or 70 odd years. By which point they were probably dead, and more likely disinclined to look favorably on Deikun or his followers given their actions even if they were alive. Parallax posted:i don't loving care if it's the best plan ever or if it would be actually successful, all I mean is that it has a semblance of logic and base in reason. Minerva points out its flaws to Full Frontal when he reveals it, and they're about creating an underclass of Earth dwellers who will resent spacenoids, not economical logistics. presumably Earth depends on space colonies for resources whereas the space colonies are self-sufficient The Colonies were designed to be self sufficient from the jump, which is why that nugget that the Federation impoverished Side 3 by using economic sanctions always rang false. On the other hand, by Char's Counterattack the Earth is dependent on the Colonies for at least some food and goods to survive. It doesn't really matter if Earth has bigger armies if you can just go "yea, good luck feeding or paying them for more than another day if you keep this poo poo up because we'll just stop making food or sending it to you". Arcsquad12 posted:Mineva is right that trying to cut Earth off from the colonies would only galvanize them against spacenoids further, and the Federation has proven incredibly able to bounce back from disasters. On the other hand, in ZZ the Earth Federation flat out capitulated to Neo Zeon and were ready to let Haman have whatever she wanted, with her plan only being foiled cause of those damned kids and an internal war among Neo Zeon while in Char's Counterattack the Federation were ready to negotiate a treaty with Char and cede him Sweetwater and Axis as territory to form a Spacenoid nation after one successful terrorist attack. It was only the efforts of another small group that prevented that one. The Federation were willing to capitulate during the One Year War as well, with Revil's revilation that Zeon were just as hosed as the Federation being the only thing that stopped them from doing so. The Federation might have a lot more firepower and resources but they're remarkably easy going about Spacenoid demands when push comes to shove so it wouldn't be at all surprising for them to give in to economic bribery. Arcsquad12 posted:Char only had the colonies backing because he had made strides as a public figure during zeta with the Dakar speech and he didn't attack spacenoids. Is this actually supported anywhere, or just your assumption; because I don't recall anything in Char's Counterattack explaining that as the reason he has such popular support among Spacenoids. Which he does, because Amuro and Bright discuss how various colonies aren't willing to commit to giving Londo Bell open support since they want to see how things will go and then a group of attackers blow up some beam cannon batteries while shouting "Sieg Zeon"; then a few minutes later Amuro and Bright talk about how they've been searching the colonies regularly for 3 years for signs of Char or his activity but every time they conduct a search the colonists cover for Char. And Sweetwater is basically a capital city, with the people singing songs in Char's name. I mean, it's a pretty solid hypothesis, but at the same time Full Frontal presented himself as Char and people seemed to believe him; so it wouldn't actually change anything in that regard. Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:Its almost like Unicorn is actively and clumsily retconning UC to function better as a cudgel for the writers political beliefs or something Axis and Sweetwater both exist, and have been used to paint a picture of lovely colonial life a decade or more before Unicorn was even conceived. ZZ and Char's Counterattack used them as a way of making Neo Zeon movements more sympathetic or understandable. Haman's desire to live on Earth is implied to be because of the desolation and shittiness of life in Axis by her line that life there was so cold for instance. Nothing about Palau is new. tsob fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 15:21
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tsob posted:Other non-space adapted Spacenoids shouldn't need any. It's a measure against exclusion, not preferential treatment. Space adapted people are likely to be classed as different in some form and could be stigmatized in some way based on this otherness. Which is exactly what happened. By including a stipulation that they be included, it goes some way to minimizing the chances of that. Excluding non space adapted humanoids is basically excluding yourself (i.e. the person writing the document) from the government. The people writing that charter didn't foresee that there'd be sociological stigma between Earth and Space living people, or that Earth would rule space with no facility or opportunity for people living in space to rule themselves going by Unicorn and weren't attempting to halt that because they didn't foresee it; only halt stigma based on something else they thought might happen. You're telling me that it makes sense that a government writing a founding governmental charter all collectively believed in the potential emergence of space humans enough that they would write a clause in the charter about them, but this collection of geniuses wouldn't have the foresight to realize that an enormous power imbalance between Earth and Space might potentially cause some problems? The latter is a much more realistic problem that has been repeated numerous times through Earth history and there's absolutely no way that anyone writing such a grand, sweeping document would be unaware of them(besides bad writing), but they decided that it was more important to put a clause about something that doesn't exist and may never exist in their articles of government. quote:Deikun's actual philosophical discussion about Newtypes is never brought up in UC; only the word. Which he ascribed to the phenomena, and which became popularized because he followers used it. Some of whom didn't even believe it was a thing by the sounds of it, since Gihren seems to just be using the term to rally people and have no faith in the actual reality of it. Laplace's Box doesn't even use a specific word and doesn't ascribe any kind of detail; it basically just says "hey, if space mutants evolve that can deal with the rigors of space life better than regular humans let's not stigmatize them". Which is obviously meant to be blue sky thinking with no particular agenda or even vision behind it. The other deleted provision being "let's start doing some research just in case aliens" should make that clear. The guy(s) writing the document didn't foresee what Newtypes would be, and may not even have thought them likely; it was a "just in case" proviso meant to enshrine some hope in to their government given that they were going through a crisis and it was felt hope was necessary for what was happening. Even the cafe owner Mineva talks to episode 4 mentions that people felt hope was necessary if I recall. Deikun's actual philosophical discussion about Newtypes is brought up in the Gundam novels and is pretty clear, it even has a fancy philosophical name: contolism. The Gundam wiki has a full translation of his spiel here: http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Zeon_Zum_Deikun I think it's being very disingenuous to suddenly decide that the writers of the Laplace document weren't talking about newtypes or something like newtypes in a show that gushes about newtypes at every possible opportunity. The way to Laplace's Box is only revealed when a newtype pilots the Unicorn, and the Box itself is guarded by an old man who was alive when the document was written and he sees Mineva and Banagher and goes "yeah okay you're it". You're twisting yourself into pretzels to justify a bone-headed bit of writing that could have easily have been something similar but not quite as ludicrous or canon-upsetting(such as, say, giving priority to involving the colonies in government). quote:It was also the basis for his political beliefs, which became the cornerstone political movement of Zeon the faction. Zeon didn't create Zeon, the faction. It informed his political beliefs, but he was an elected official in an existing government who pushed policy within the boundaries of that governmental structure, not the founder of a new government. The Zabis used the popularity of his philosophy as a keystone of their own rise, but that's something they did to lend legitimacy to their own rule instead of a vague shot in the dark. quote:The people who were pushing it died, the people who weren't pushing it but just knew about it were given money to silence them and/or didn't care that much since it was a minor clause that wasn't actually affecting anyone and wouldn't do so for 60 or 70 odd years. By which point they were probably dead, and more likely disinclined to look favorably on Deikun or his followers given their actions even if they were alive. The field of history is pretty broad and detailed. There are historians who study the daily lives of women in societies thousands of years ago, or how peoples' eating habits influenced their health in the middle ages, or other things that have no direct bearing on present day human society. You're telling me that there wouldn't be ENORMOUS historical interest in a founding document of the government of the entire Earth sphere written less than a century ago? Or that there was some kind of vast 9/11 conspiracy to pay off or assassinate every single person who ever knew anything about a document that was written, again, less than a century ago and was a major founding document for the government that all of humanity lives under? quote:Axis and Sweetwater both exist, and have been used to paint a picture of lovely colonial life a decade or more before Unicorn was even conceived. ZZ and Char's Counterattack used them as a way of making Neo Zeon movements more sympathetic or understandable. Haman's desire to live on Earth is implied to be because of the desolation and shittiness of life in Axis by her line that life there was so cold for instance. Nothing about Palau is new. You can't really use Axis as an example of "lovely colony life" in UC, considering it was created and maintained by Zeon as a fortress, spent almost its entire existence as a major base for Zeon, and ends its days being used as a guided missile by Zeon. Haman's life on Axis is lovely and desolate because she was forced at an absurdly young age into becoming a political player warring for dominance over an asteroid fortress infested top to bottom by Zabi-ist forlorn hopers who believed the war never really ended, not because Axis was necessarily a stinky and awful place to physically live. We're never really shown Sweetwater, just told it's "unstable" - whatever that means - due to the construction methods used to slap it together, and the reason why it's slipshod is because they had to rush its construction to accommodate the masses of refugees created by the wars that Zeon and Zeon remnants kept starting and loving everything up with.
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Jun 5, 2018 18:51
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DKD posted:That's just what's on the walls of the colony. It doesn't say much about actual conditions except that whoever's in charge decided to paint a nice-looking background on the walls. Funny thing is, Colony durability is probably the single least realistic thing in the franchise, a lot of the real world research into doing O'Neill style colonies indicates the drat things would be near indestructible to almost any weapon humanity could use if they're constructed properly, as even the glass parts would probably be like a dozen meters thick(and that's assuming it's regular glass and not some sort of super polymer or transparent metal instead), let alone how thick the rest would be Basically the nerve gas attacks that Zeon did were pretty much the only thing that could have worked, and even that is iffy since a colony would probably have very in depth atmospheric controls that would probably be prepared for something like that tsob posted:Government administrators are layman. They're not a special class of people or anything. Almost anyone can become one, and it's not even a particularly privileged position in much of the world. Local Councillors are administrative officials, and half decent businessmen in the local community often have more say than them in local matters. Civil servants are technically administrative officials, depending on how you want to interpret the phrase (though Google tells me that America has a stricter usage of the phrase than Europe for instance). Part of the problems the Federation has are massive resource and manpower issues from the OYW that continue to plague them all the way through Victory, when they temporarily solve them(although going by both G-Savior and Gaia Gear, it's a temporary one that soon gets even worse)
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Jun 5, 2018 18:55
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Kanos posted:You're telling me that it makes sense that a government writing a founding governmental charter all collectively believed in the potential emergence of space humans enough that they would write a clause in the charter about them, but this collection of geniuses wouldn't have the foresight to realize that an enormous power imbalance between Earth and Space might potentially cause some problems? I'm telling you that in a scenario where one guy could come up with a vague idea of a likely human evolution and have it come true that I think it's likely someone else could have envisioned an even vaguer one a few decades before hand and throw it in to a charter as a hopeful gesture to try and sooth a troubled populace during a time of crisis but not foresee other, more likely issues because they were just trying to calm people and not solve every problem yes. And that I think that's fine in the context of a fictional story. Kanos posted:Deikun's actual philosophical discussion about Newtypes is brought up in the Gundam novels and is pretty clear, it even has a fancy philosophical name: contolism. The Gundam wiki has a full translation of his spiel here: http://gundam.wikia.com/wiki/Zeon_Zum_Deikun I'm sorry, let me rephrase that "it's never brought up in animation." The novel is not canon. Not unless Amuro dies in 0079 at least, so there's no reason to assume anything it says has any bearing on the actual events of UC animations after that point. Tomino already changed his mind on how Degwin, Gihren and others relate to Deikun and Newtypes between the 0079 TV show and the movie trilogy, with their discussion about the course of the war having additional context that they're doing it because they want to form a nation for Newtypes so there's no reason that the specifics of Newtypes as Deikun envisioned them wouldn't change over the course of UC. Especially when Tomino's own views on them has changed fairly radically over the years, which is why their role in various shows was so different. Even between 0079 and Zeta he appears to have started to think of them as capable of different things. As far as the animation is concerned it's just a word with no philosophical context provided for what that word means to various people beyond how they react to it. Kanos posted:I think it's being very disingenuous to suddenly decide that the writers of the Laplace document weren't talking about newtypes or something like newtypes in a show that gushes about newtypes at every possible opportunity. It's literally written as "new space adapted human", not "Newtype". It of course refers to them, but only because we know they meet that critera; not because the people writing it envisaged Newtypes as we know them. At no point is it ever implied the guys writing the document knew what Newtypes would be, what they could do etc. Kanos posted:The way to Laplace's Box is only revealed when a newtype pilots the Unicorn, and the Box itself is guarded by an old man who was alive when the document was written and he sees Mineva and Banagher and goes "yeah okay you're it". Which is because Syam Vist organized all that well after Newtypes had emerged and for his own purposes. None of it is part of the original charter. Syam Vist got "rich man's guilt" over the fact he'd profited from the marginalization of Newtypes and wanted to make it right before he died. His plan is to give the proof of Newtype rights to someone who could use it and organized a scavanger hunt so that the person who followed it would be exposed to what he felt were the biggest mistakes in UC's history and maximize the chance they wouldn't misuse the box like he felt he did. Kanos posted:Zeon didn't create Zeon, the faction. It informed his political beliefs, but he was an elected official in an existing government who pushed policy within the boundaries of that governmental structure, not the founder of a new government. I'm aware he didn't create the faction Zeon, but he did coin the phrase "Contolism" as well as the idea of "Newtypes" and so far as we know acted to push them as political ideas before his death. Kanos posted:You're telling me that there wouldn't be ENORMOUS historical interest in a founding document of the government of the entire Earth sphere written less than a century ago? When it's uncovered, sure. Historians aren't psychic though. They don't know about something before it's unearthed. Kanos posted:You can't really use Axis as an example of "lovely colony life" in UC, considering it was created and maintained by Zeon as a fortress, spent almost its entire existence as a major base for Zeon, and ends its days being used as a guided missile by Zeon. Palau is a mining asteroid too. How is that different from Axis? Kanos posted:We're never really shown Sweetwater, just told it's "unstable" - whatever that means - due to the construction methods used to slap it together, and the reason why it's slipshod is because they had to rush its construction to accommodate the masses of refugees created by the wars that Zeon and Zeon remnants kept starting and loving everything up with. We see Char, Quess and Gyunei in Sweetwater a few times and outside the grand palace Char is holding some kind of soire in it looks a lot more dark and poor than any of the other colony cylinders. Gyunei and Quess argue about Char's interest in Quess in a street intersection with cramped looking apartments around them for instance, there's no green spaces or anything around them and even the people on the train singing to Char appear much poorer and more desperate than normal colony citizens. All the cylinders in Side 3 are stated to be closed types like Sweetwater too, yet the few shots we get of them in 0079 show them as rather grand and beautiful, with parks, lots of light etc. Sweetwater is nothing like that as far as we see. drrockso20 posted:Funny thing is, Colony durability is probably the single least realistic thing in the franchise, a lot of the real world research into doing O'Neill style colonies indicates the drat things would be near indestructible to almost any weapon humanity could use if they're constructed properly, as even the glass parts would probably be like a dozen meters thick(and that's assuming it's regular glass and not some sort of super polymer or transparent metal instead), let alone how thick the rest would be. I saw someone do a calculation once of how long it'd take air to escape a colony based on a hole blown in one by a reactor and there would be days before all the air from the colony was sucked out it's so big compared to the holes we see mobile suit explosions blow in them. I can't even remember the exact time, but it was something like 2 or 3 days. Now, there'd obviously be less time than that since the air would thin after some time, or if there were multiple holes or whatever; but the point is that if even temporary repairs using those gel balls that we see occasionally should be sufficient outside gas attacks or massive hulling that takes out miles worth of wall. Also, material scientists have started working on transparent aluminum and hope to see the price come down as it's adopted but are planning on using it on the International Space Station soon since they have successfully made some of it. tsob fucked around with this message at 19:34 on Jun 5, 2018 |
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Jun 5, 2018 19:21
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Colonies are "more" destructible than a planetary surface but the factor wasn't that different. It might be psychologically influential to know that space is literally just outside, of course. Maybe undergraduates write papers about how the windowless setup in Side 3 made them feel less vulnerable. As for the places looking pretty livable, it's possible the Federation was using a mass production plan that was generous in a lot of ways and the colony population didn't balloon massively and immediately because they were already post-industrial. I imagine you'd get a lot less resistance to colony relocation if the places were visually pleasant and comfortable. The real mindfuck is that the Earth Federation built them at all. That poo poo is really rather crazy when you think about it. Given how many colonies there are, and that they all got built over, what, fifty or sixty years?
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Jun 7, 2018 13:03
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Nessus posted:The real mindfuck is that the Earth Federation built them at all. That poo poo is really rather crazy when you think about it. Given how many colonies there are, and that they all got built over, what, fifty or sixty years? It took me a few years of Gundaming before it hit me how massive an undertaking it would have been to move that many people and that much stuff into orbit.
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Jun 7, 2018 13:27
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Midjack posted:It took me a few years of Gundaming before it hit me how massive an undertaking it would have been to move that many people and that much stuff into orbit. Logistically speaking, it's only the first Colony that's hard to set up. Once that is operational, you have a central hub on-site (or at least relatively-local) to build more from that isn't Earth or some over-worked fleet of construction ships. Most of the resources are also from captured asteroids rather than brought up from the surface, so it really would be "just" a production line once the first Colony is online. Hell, just getting it built enough to seal some of the inner chamber and get a few factories going and the thing probably builds itself.
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Jun 7, 2018 13:45
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It would be a massive undertaking and an incredible feat of human planning, engineering and execution, but there's no reason why it wouldn't be possible in a world where Earth is united under one government and sci-fi factories and tools exist.  The real kicker is how many people found themselves out of a job after the colonies finished construction, given how many people must have been involved in the work of actually building the cylinders.
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Jun 7, 2018 14:11
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Nessus posted:As for the places looking pretty livable, it's possible the Federation was using a mass production plan that was generous in a lot of ways and the colony population didn't balloon massively and immediately because they were already post-industrial. Can we even definitively say that the Earthsphere is post-industrial in Gundam? You'd kind of assume they'd have to be, but at the same time we know very little about the economy in UC and the only companies we ever find out anything about are industrial manufacturers like Anaheim Electronics and SNRI. Midjack posted:It took me a few years of Gundaming before it hit me how massive an undertaking it would have been to move that many people and that much stuff into orbit. I always find the thought of having to fill each of those cylinders more daunting personally. The amount of resources and work that must go in to the idyllic countrysides, parks, mountains and lakes inside them is mind bending to me.
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Jun 7, 2018 15:08
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Lemon-Lime posted:The real kicker is how many people found themselves out of a job after the colonies finished construction, given how many people must have been involved in the work of actually building the cylinders. Once the Colonies are up, you still need travel between them. All those people go right into shipbuilding, which is an industry that's only going to expand geometrically with every new Colony.
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Jun 7, 2018 16:12
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Lemon-Lime posted:It would be a massive undertaking and an incredible feat of human planning, engineering and execution, but there's no reason why it wouldn't be possible in a world where Earth is united under one government and sci-fi factories and tools exist. maybe they're the colonists
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Jun 7, 2018 18:55
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ninjewtsu posted:maybe they're the colonists They most likely are. They're still going to be a bunch of people in construction sitting around with nothing to build once the colony is finished. Neddy Seagoon posted:Once the Colonies are up, you still need travel between them. All those people go right into shipbuilding, which is an industry that's only going to expand geometrically with every new Colony. It's not like every colony is a shipyard, though.
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Jun 7, 2018 18:58
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It's not like everyone building the colony has only one non-transferable skill. Builders will still be in demand to construct new buildings inside them or repair existing ones, electricians to do electrical work, engineers to design new infrastructure for evolving colony life and so on. Once a colony is built it doesn't just magically work indefinitely. Not everyone building it will be able to find a related job in the completed colony, but most of them will be able to transfer to other fields pretty easily I imagine. Working on constructing a colony has to give you at least some grounding for constructing space fleets or what have you. It's even kind of addressed in Char's Counterattack, when Char notes that all the Neo Zeon soldiers will be out of a job if he disbands his fleet and the Federation offer to give them all jobs in the Federation.
tsob fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Jun 7, 2018 |
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Jun 7, 2018 19:23
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Lemon-Lime posted:They most likely are. There's a whole lot of work available. You need an extremely robust colony maintenance for each colony, because letting your infrastructure decay in an environment where your infrastructure is literally keeping you alive is not an option. Even if the colony isn't building ships(and some will be), you need an extremely robust and extensive spaceport, because your spaceport is literally your only means of travel and contact with the outside world; tons of traffic controllers, ship mechanics, spaceport staff, etc. Plus you'll have tons of openings in whatever industrial or agricultural pursuit the specific colony is being constructed to engage in, because you're building this thing for potentially millions of people to live in and theoretically produce things.
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Jun 7, 2018 19:32
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