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Hashim posted:Ibriz became democratic in a revolution of it's own (also it's an ex-Andalusi colony), so I imagine it to be pretty tolerant. There are still a couple other places Christians could migrate to, though, including the Gharbian Republic (New Occitania, after it broke free from Provence). There are a large number of (secular) democracies, that still discriminated against religious minorities.
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Jun 11, 2018 12:02
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Sounds like some people are just bitter that Ibriz is much better and more tolerant than us.
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Jun 11, 2018 12:08
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crimea posted:Sounds like some people are just bitter that Ibriz is much better and more tolerant than us. Nah my character immigrated to Ibriz before the fitna.
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Jun 11, 2018 12:18
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Possible to do an event for a reverse Crimean war with the Vakitani trying to regain control of Constantinople?
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Jun 11, 2018 20:04
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Tiger Crazy posted:Possible to do an event for a reverse Crimean war with the Vakitani trying to regain control of Constantinople? Hmm could work. Maybe a temporary Vakhtani-Bulgaria alliance could form to try and retake both sides of the Bosporus, with possible intervention from a great power or two. Definitely something to think about.
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Jun 11, 2018 20:32
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Japan was challenging the hegemon in China for the mandate of heaven at the end of Eu4, right? There should definitely be some sort of chain about that, leading to either the complete collapse of China (with some events/boosts to promote a later reunification?) or the defeat of Japan off the mainland.
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Jun 11, 2018 20:36
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Perhaps the Mongol Empire could also get some kind of modernisation push event or somesuch (Similar to what happened to Turkestan in HohenLP if you cast your mind back) in order to compete with the much more advanced Japan? I can imagine the latter being pretty uncontested in China otherwise. However I can also see the thematic and narrative reasons for letting an unciv Mongol Empire sink or swim on their own terms. What do you think, Hashim?
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Jun 11, 2018 20:37
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ThatBasqueGuy posted:Japan was challenging the hegemon in China for the mandate of heaven at the end of Eu4, right? There should definitely be some sort of chain about that, leading to either the complete collapse of China (with some events/boosts to promote a later reunification?) or the defeat of Japan off the mainland. Japan's a revolutionary republic, so they weren't trying to claim the mandate of heaven, but they were definitely challenging the Mongol Empire for supremacy in Manchuria. The Mongol Empire should be pretty unstable as it is though, since I don't think I'm gonna give them any accepted cultures over China, mostly because their conquests were so recent. If China doesn't collapse very often though, I'll probably have to add an event chain making it more possible. As for Japan, I'm going to give them some events that will have them bordering the Mongols before long, that should stir some tensions between them. crimea posted:Perhaps the Mongol Empire could also get some kind of modernisation push event or somesuch (Similar to what happened to Turkestan in HohenLP if you cast your mind back) in order to compete with the much more advanced Japan? I can imagine the latter being pretty uncontested in China otherwise. However I can also see the thematic and narrative reasons for letting an unciv Mongol Empire sink or swim on their own terms. What do you think, Hashim? The Mongols are going to start unwesternised, but they won't be completely uncivilised, and with so many neighbouring Chinese states they should be able to get plenty of research points through expansion (assuming they don't collapse). I will add a couple events helping them with westernisation though, probably by interacting with European powers who want to expand their influence in China, or are opposed to Japanese expansionism. I definitely want to see Japan challenged for regional dominance, at the very least.
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Jun 11, 2018 21:01
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On the subject of the mod: I've got most of the map modding done, and the OTL events/decisions are mostly purged, so all that's left is messing around with POPs a bit. I'll start adding the suggested events and decisions once that's done, so if you've got anyone's got more ideas, feel free to let me know. Also, for the sake of having them all in one place, these are the flags I've decided to use so far: Al Andalus (by clayren)   (monarchy) (republic)  (fascist)  (communist)There's also this, which could make a decent communist flag with some trimming done:  France (by veris)  (communist) (republic)Armenia (by veris)  (communist) (republic) (fascist)Palermo (by veris)  (communist)Egypt (by veris)  (communist) (republic)Bavaria (by veris)  (republic)North Sea Kingdom (by ikasuhito)  (communist) (republic) (fascist)Scandinavia (by veris)  (communist) (republic) (fascist)Celtic Union (by veris)  (communist) (republic) (fascist)Waono (by catlord - I'll try and fix them up a bit)  (monarchy) (fascist)
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Jun 11, 2018 21:05
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Hashim posted:Hmm could work. Maybe a temporary Vakhtani-Bulgaria alliance could form to try and retake both sides of the Bosporus, with possible intervention from a great power or two. Definitely something to think about. If Vakhtani keeps it's cores on Constantinople, won't there be an international crisis or war start over it sooner or later?
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Jun 11, 2018 21:38
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Hashim posted:On the subject of the mod: I've got most of the map modding done, and the OTL events/decisions are mostly purged, so all that's left is messing around with POPs a bit. I'll start adding the suggested events and decisions once that's done, so if you've got anyone's got more ideas, feel free to let me know. Don't forget to use the POPAdjust tool I linked back in the day to avoid going insane from adjusting POP's, specially in places with very different pop distribution.
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Jun 11, 2018 21:43
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Dance Officer posted:If Vakhtani keeps it's cores on Constantinople, won't there be an international crisis or war start over it sooner or later? It's possible, but not set in stone. It can be really difficult for crises to take hold in provinces controlled by the stronger great powers (and Russia will be very strong), and those that do will fizzle out more often than not. I'm going to run a few test games before doing anything, but the only way to guarantee tensions or crises over Constantinople is through events. ZearothK posted:Don't forget to use the POPAdjust tool I linked back in the day to avoid going insane from adjusting POP's, specially in places with very different pop distribution. Yep, I've already used that a ton, and it cuts down on hours of horrible dull pop adjustments. It's so good.
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Jun 11, 2018 22:04
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Yeah, the game dulls crisis tension the more powerful a GP is. It's the reason why you'll probably never see a crisis for Irish liberation in vanilla V2: UK is so high up on the rankings that it'll never, ever happen.
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Jun 11, 2018 22:32
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Does the Celtic Union have a monarchist flag? If not can I propose something like this: For the dual-monarchy of Ireland and Scotland
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Jun 11, 2018 23:25
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Clayren posted:Does the Celtic Union have a monarchist flag? If not can I propose something like this: That's way better than the alternative, definitely using it.
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Jun 12, 2018 00:00
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Is Ibriz still a revolutionary republic?
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Jun 12, 2018 00:24
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Flavius Belisarius posted:I would imagine Al Andalus is still pretty religious and people likely wouldn't drink wine as a general rule. I don't think grapes make a lot of sense as a symbol. Our flags are basically already set in stone, but honestly the Andalusi (with the possible exception of those that lived in the former Mahdiyya) are almost definitely the most secular/irreligious Muslims of this timeline; probably we're even less religious in general than anyone besides the peoples of the former revolutionary states, and those under Tirruni especially. Most of the Majlis and Jizrunids, at least, have certainly never had any problems with drinking and sinfulness and fighting other Muslims, and I would have to imagine that the inhabitants of our coastal cities are as decadent and liberal as they come. e: Which reminds me -- what's the literacy going to look like for Al Andalus and elsewhere? Cadiz and the rest of the southern and western coast are probably going to be host to some of the most educated people in Europe, but where else does the literacy stand out? Hiveminded fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 00:25
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Hiveminded posted:Our flags are basically already set in stone, but honestly the Andalusi (with the possible exception of those that lived in the former Mahdiyya) are almost definitely the most secular/irreligious Muslims of this timeline; probably we're even less religious in general than anyone besides the peoples of the former revolutionary states, and those under Tirruni especially. Most of the Majlis and Jizrunids, at least, have certainly never had any problems with drinking and sinfulness and fighting other Muslims, and I would have to imagine that the inhabitants of our coastal cities are as decadent and liberal as they come. I'm not sure that would follow from our country being started by way of religious wars, and centuries of Christian rebellions. Spain became the most conservative Catholic nation in Europe because of the Reconquista, and basically invented institutional racism centuries later because of it. Flavius Aetass fucked around with this message at 00:46 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 00:27
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Regarding pops for Ireland, I'm not sure if Vicky 2 models the famine from OTL, or just starts Ireland off with a reduced population. Population of Ireland in the 1840s was between 8 and 9 million before the famine kicked in, while the population of England was about 13 million. Given Ireland's greater clout in the isles in this timeline and the devastating effect of the war of the English crown, it strikes me as possible that the figures might very well be the other way around. Meanwhile Scotland still has the same issue with its mountainous terrain restricting population, so even if Glasgow and the rest of the central belt are a bit more populous than in our timeline, the balance of population would still I think be heavily skewed Irish.
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Jun 12, 2018 00:43
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Flavius Belisarius posted:Is Ibriz still a revolutionary republic? Yep, so they're starting vicky as a Democracy. Hiveminded posted:Our flags are basically already set in stone, but honestly the Andalusi (with the possible exception of those that lived in the former Mahdiyya) are almost definitely the most secular/irreligious Muslims of this timeline; probably we're even less religious in general than anyone besides the peoples of the former revolutionary states, and those under Tirruni especially. Most of the Majlis and Jizrunids, at least, have certainly never had any problems with drinking and sinfulness and fighting other Muslims, and I would have to imagine that the inhabitants of our coastal cities are as decadent and liberal as they come. Our national literacy should be around 25 to 30%, which isn't amazing but makes for a solid starting position. Most of our intellectuals will be spread around the southern and western coasts, along with the densely-populated cities in southern Andalusia (Cordoba, Batalyaws etc), while most of our illiterate pops will be in central and northern Iberia (except for cities like Tulaytullah and Liyun, which would be regional learning centres of their own.) Reveilled posted:Regarding pops for Ireland, I'm not sure if Vicky 2 models the famine from OTL, or just starts Ireland off with a reduced population. Population of Ireland in the 1840s was between 8 and 9 million before the famine kicked in, while the population of England was about 13 million. Given Ireland's greater clout in the isles in this timeline and the devastating effect of the war of the English crown, it strikes me as possible that the figures might very well be the other way around. Yep, that's exactly what I've done. Ireland's starting population is a lot bigger than vanilla, with Dublin being one of Europe's largest cities at about 285k, and England's pops have been cut down to represent the centuries of constant fighting between the Celts and French. This is what the population density map of Europe is looking like right now, though there's still some changes that need to be done: 
hashashash fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 00:58
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Reveilled posted:Regarding pops for Ireland, I'm not sure if Vicky 2 models the famine from OTL, or just starts Ireland off with a reduced population. Population of Ireland in the 1840s was between 8 and 9 million before the famine kicked in, while the population of England was about 13 million. Given Ireland's greater clout in the isles in this timeline and the devastating effect of the war of the English crown, it strikes me as possible that the figures might very well be the other way around. The existence of a large Irish-Scottish nation with a unified Gaelic language introduces some interesting possible flashpoints. It'd not be unlikely to see the Celtic Union funding nationalists in Wales and Brittany or France doing the same in Yorkshire. Northeast England is this timeline's Northern Ireland.
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Jun 12, 2018 01:03
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Clayren posted:The existence of a large Irish-Scottish nation with a unified Gaelic language introduces some interesting possible flashpoints. It'd not be unlikely to see the Celtic Union funding nationalists in Wales and Brittany or France doing the same in Yorkshire. Northeast England is this timeline's Northern Ireland. There are also significant Irish minorities in much of northern England (with the English-Irish split being about 50/50 in the bigger cities, like Manchester and Liverpool). I've also added Welsh culture so there's the possibility of a resurgent Celtic Union going on a crusade to free other Celtic cultures.
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Jun 12, 2018 01:09
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re: the comparison to extremely racist Counter-reformation Spain Just to be clear, I'm not saying we should emulate that. 1) It's been done before and 2) I'm increasingly uncomfortable with hyper-reactionary roleplaying. I'm just saying we shouldn't assume we are heavily in another direction that doesn't really make sense.
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Jun 12, 2018 01:09
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Who’s going to get the manifest destiny event? Could it go to multiple new world nations?
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Jun 12, 2018 03:10
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Flavius Belisarius posted:re: the comparison to extremely racist Counter-reformation Spain I didn't mean to imply that Al Andalus is some kind of enlightened bastion of religious and racial harmony, but rather that we haven't had any kind of strong national affinity for Islam and moralism since the Fitna at the least. Our opposition to fundamentalist Morocco and the Mahdiyya, the general preference we've had for realpolitik over religious solidarity, the strong tendency of our ruling and elite castes towards impiety and decadence, and the status of Cadiz and other wealthy, worldly cities as the cultural and political heart of Al Andalus; these are all factors, among others, that have to be considered in addition to that of our long and troubled relationship with the cultural and religious minorities of Iberia. That in particular is parallel to what occurred in OTL Spain, but the religiosity and conservatism of the Spanish was not solely due to the history of conflict between Christians and Muslims. Morocco honestly has more in common with Spain in basically every other way, in terms of religion, culture, and politics.
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Jun 12, 2018 03:34
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hmm sounds like merchant-speak to me
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Jun 12, 2018 03:55
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QuoProQuid posted:albionoria might do fine, but anbaila and neimni sund don't seem to have any major metropolitan areas that can finance the improvements needed to make use of its vast tracts of land. I think you switched Albionoria with Neimni Sund in your head. Neimni Sund would have Cincinnati, which was already a major city by this time, (and also logically NS's capital), and if I'm transposing the map right, which is hard since Paradox sometimes shapes geography screwy, it looks like they control Memphis, as well, which being where it is, likely makes serious bank by taxing shipments coming from Anbaila to Ibriz, or even from Ibriz to other parts of Ibriz. ALSO, for some screwy reason, the Prosperity/devastation map seems to indicate that the most prosperous city in the entirety of North America is... uh.... somewhere North of Tallahassee. O_o What the hell is even there? Valdosta? Anbaila contains Detroit and Chicago. It's entirely possible either or both would have significantly higher populations (or lower, to be fair!) in a world where there's several countries in what was historically just the US. Also keep in mind that the Celtic colonies are totally distinct from New England, so immigrants/settlers from the CU would have had to travel farther inland, or else be in a country that was potentially hostile to them. Even if Populations were exactly as in our own time, Chicago was a top 10 city by 1860 and exploded in population ever since. Chicago is basically right on the border of Ibriz, though, so I could see that being both a detriment and a boon to its expansion vs our actual timeline, but ultimately probably more of a detriment. Regardless of size, it's almost certainly not the capital/seat of Anbailan government, as it's just too close to an expansionist, warlike power. Milwaukee or Minneapolis make much more sense, and for my money, I'd say it's extremely likely that Milwaukee is both the capital of Anbaila, and a bigger/more important city in this timeline than Chicago. Albionoria, however, seems to just be a crappier version of real-world Canada. According to income though, they're on the first page of all countries listed, so maybe some Canadian Goon will tell me what I'm obviously missing.
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Jun 12, 2018 04:10
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More flags Inca Communist  Republic  Monarchist  Fascist  Imjir Communist  Republic   Monarchist  Fasc  Nuquril Republic  Monarchist  Walidrar Republic  Monarchist  Al-Stralya  Monarchist  Republic  Fash  
Veris fucked around with this message at 06:03 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 04:47
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Speaking of New England got me thinking, I really like flags with boats on them. Why not more boats? Here's a proposal for Monarchist New England, which both connects to the historical symbol of England but also recognizes that the country is very coastal and dependent on the sea:  Here's a Republican proposal that is totally not France:  A sailboat on a flag in the 1800's is stupid, a Communist New England would want to celebrate the fruits of industrial laborers:  (Also, imagine a steamship flying a flag with a steamship on it that is itself flying a different flag within that flag. Just imagining it has me at half staff.) Fascist flags, while striking, are often kinda boring and boat-less: 
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Jun 12, 2018 05:04
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I feel like an England that exists entirely in exile on another continent would fall particularly in love with the King Arthur legend, particularly the "return during England's greatest need" bits. What I'm saying is a Fascist New England flag should be a gauntleted hand gripping a sword embedded in a boulder.
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Jun 12, 2018 05:19
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Hiveminded posted:I didn't mean to imply that Al Andalus is some kind of enlightened bastion of religious and racial harmony, but rather that we haven't had any kind of strong national affinity for Islam and moralism since the Fitna at the least. Our opposition to fundamentalist Morocco and the Mahdiyya, the general preference we've had for realpolitik over religious solidarity, the strong tendency of our ruling and elite castes towards impiety and decadence, and the status of Cadiz and other wealthy, worldly cities as the cultural and political heart of Al Andalus; these are all factors, among others, that have to be considered in addition to that of our long and troubled relationship with the cultural and religious minorities of Iberia. That in particular is parallel to what occurred in OTL Spain, but the religiosity and conservatism of the Spanish was not solely due to the history of conflict between Christians and Muslims. Morocco honestly has more in common with Spain in basically every other way, in terms of religion, culture, and politics. Here's the thing though: All that fundamentalism and religious intolerance of the Mahdiyya? Sure that split from Qadis, but it's all part of Al Andalus now, reabsorbed during the Tirruni wars. Even if most of the important mahddists have been barred from power, that sentiment is still going to be lurking everywhere in Al Andalus. God knows the merchants of Qadis aren't going to fill the void. Of course, the "official" religion of Al Andalus is a little ambiguous right now. A good chunk of the ruling class went Shia with the monarch, but now most of the Shia heartland is occupied by fundamentalist Morocco (nothing good can happen there), while Sunni is still in a bit of a weird position, since the nominal leader of all Sunni Islam, the caliph, is on the outs with Al Andalus. At best most of Andalusia just hasn't cared about eastern caliphs since Cordoba split from the rest of Arabia, and at worst the current ruling class has been actively antagonizing the caliph. And then there's all these long-tolerated christians bumming around the peninsula, who are probably going to agitate for rights now that there's a constitution. So naturally that seems like an avenue for freedom of religion, right? But I put it to you that blanket freedom of religion may just make the whole situation worse. There's a lot of unhappy Andalusians out there looking for answers, especially after all the death and destruction of the war. I could see a great awakening like the kind that happened in America happening, with all sorts of new denominations popping up and complicating things. Maybe even some Muslim Mormons, if you can imagine how that would work. And all these religious groups remember a time of being independent of the Majlis, and ruling their own territory. I see separatism in the future.
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Jun 12, 2018 05:23
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so ibriz is a revolutionary republic that's majority muslim in a world where muslims and christians have participated in some kind of ecumene, is the best word i can think of, the 'known world' - in this timeline, the ancient ecumene of pre-roman times remained intact through the religious revolutions of both the first and second millennia CE, is kinda my thesis along with reflecting on how different that is from our world. it may even have effects on the degree to which ancient forms of prejudice were transformed into the modern forms we recognize as racism, and i don't even know which way that would cut, but i'll leave that alone for now we can see it in interfaith alliances an order of magnitude more common and consequential than the france-ottoman alliance of the real world in the same time period, and i bet commercial contacts throughout the mediterranean are an order of magnitude stronger than what venice, genoa, and such were able to keep going in the real early modern era - in real life Muslims had a very strong presence in the mediterranean in this period and here i think they'd indisputably have had the upper hand for centuries** so when the Revolution, liberty, equality, brotherhood style, hits an ecumene that's been intact for more than 2000 years but has been plagued by a binary religious divide for the last 800 or so, perhaps one of the first targets of these new ideals is the divide between muslim and christian? editeditedit: and when the post-Revolution hit wasn't Tirruni fighting off everything from the Sahara to Siberia with a multifaith empire? what was the composition of his ruling class, officer corps and soldiers, anyway? also maybe i'm misremembering crucial stuff perhaps even if that does remain a flashpoint, possibly heavily affecting events in ibriz and other american nations* we need to consider it as less of an us vs them issue than it historically and unconsciously is for the western majority that's reading and typing itt, just because we didn't grow up in a world where Christendom, if it ever existed, was always intimately connected to the Dar al-Islam or whatever the Muslim version of 'Christendom' is editeditedit not that that would stop a civil war or other such bloodshed, just saying maybe muslim vs christian is merely one of many cultural divides that can start wars among cultural equals, i guess *btw maybe send a shitload of settlers to brazil in this timeline from africa (free ones) as well as europe and the muslim world, we seem to have more of a thriving south atlantic system than in the real world - actually in general maybe we should have the muslim world emigrate to the new world at rates equivalent to the historical/base game european emigration rate, considering all of the above and the obvious power of Muslim navies and colonial empires **speaking of that, in real life muslim slavers managed to drag off a fairly significant amount of europeans, maybe an order of magnitude or two less than the atlantic slave trade was moving, right? in this history would there be a ton of european slaves working the field in post-moroccan slave states? maybe that could be another effect/cause of benin doing well - the most productive sources for the slave trade moved both to their south and to their north. this also connects to the comment about not knowing which way this perpetuated ecumene i'm proposing cuts with regard to how much the ancient patterns of prejudice were changed into the modern era oystertoadfish fucked around with this message at 06:39 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 06:16
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SlothfulCobra posted:while Sunni is still in a bit of a weird position, since the nominal leader of all Sunni Islam, the caliph, is on the outs with Al Andalus. Not giving a poo poo about the nominal caliph for political reasons is pretty standard for Sunni Islam, especially by this era (the Ottomans had been claiming the title caliph from the 16th century, and it was even recognized by foreign rulers to some extent, but they never really had any potency behind the claim). The caliphs in this world are basically "Turkey minus The City plus some of the Caucasus," which is a far less impressive empire than the Ottomans ever had, and there are plenty of powerful Muslims abroad. On a side note, the Ottoman claim to the caliphate was, ironically enough, probably most relevant with its abolition in the 1920s, which Muslims around the world saw as a grievous insult to their faith. People who never took the Turkish sultan seriously as a spiritual leader of all Sunni Muslims were still infuriated when the title was renounced and went vacant.
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Jun 12, 2018 06:25
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So in Christianity, the pope is biblical only in the loosest sense, so it's natural that there would be a significant portion who don't believe in his divine authority. Is it the same way in Islam or is there a more explicit call for a succession to the Caliphate by Muhammad? I know the basics behind the Shia/Sunni split, but what is the religious justification for Sunnis not submitting to a Sunni caliph?
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Jun 12, 2018 06:31
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Flavius Belisarius posted:So in Christianity, the pope is biblical only in the loosest sense, so it's natural that there would be a significant portion who don't believe in his divine authority. Caliphate lost a lot of its prestige during the late Abbasid era for constant civil wars and incompetent management and getting puppeted by various warlords and the Seljuk Turks and the Khwarezimids. Hell, at that time, the Umayyads were still claiming to be a separate caliphate in Spain. The caliph's authority waned when it ceased to have political sway and became a puppet...if you weren't in a caliph's realm, there's really no upside to listening to him. The last legitimate Abbasid caliph getting brutally (though bloodlessly) murdered by the Mongols didn't really help the position's authority, either. When the Mamluks in Egypt, a few years later, made some Abbasid cousin their "caliph" and spent the next quarter-millennium trotting out various pet caliphs to say whatever they wanted, it didn't exactly look like the authority of God speaking. For its last 400 years, the caliphate was claimed by the Ottoman sultans, but they treated it almost like EU4 does: as a sort of prestigious bonus title, a trophy that makes them recognized as the most powerful and influential Islamic rulers in the world. States like the Mughals eventually recognized Ottoman use of the title, but weren't about to submit to blind allegiance to any whim that the Ottoman sultan had.
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Jun 12, 2018 06:52
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Veris posted:More flags
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Jun 12, 2018 06:56
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Thanks, that's a really good explanation.
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Jun 12, 2018 07:04
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I have no idea (good ol paint) what I am doing but here are some flags for Crusader Egypt. Maybe these will inspire someone to make something different. Also I am not even sure what government type they are at this point. Communist  Monarchist  Republic  Fascist 
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Jun 12, 2018 07:30
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everydayfalls posted:Who’s going to get the manifest destiny event? Could it go to multiple new world nations? Do you mean the manifest destiny decision? It gives a ton of cores without infamy, so it would be massively OP to give it to any one nation, so I'm probably just gonna cut it.
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Jun 12, 2018 11:19
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Veris posted:More flags Clayren posted:Speaking of New England got me thinking, I really like flags with boats on them. Why not more boats? Tiger Crazy posted:I have no idea (good ol paint) what I am doing but here are some flags for Crusader Egypt. Maybe these will inspire someone to make something different. Also I am not even sure what government type they are at this point. Gonna be adding most of these flags, by the way, they look sweet.
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Jun 12, 2018 11:27
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