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Majorian posted:*brings a snowball into the Senate, makes some dumb statement about climate change being a hoax because of that snowball, looks smug, poops self* I think I would be happier not knowing this is a real thing that really happened in the highest levels of US government. When is it too early to start apologizing to children?
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Apr 10, 2018 20:42
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Decided to search for "Obama" on a Texas craigslist. Gold. https://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/clt/d/obama-administration-whats/6560005506.html quote:Obama Administration "What's Left of My Legacy" Bundle Deal - $199 I think seller may have doxxed theirself.
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Apr 18, 2018 02:01
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those who wish to explain why it is necessary to legalize banks openly discriminating against black people in order to support the democratic party can find comfort and friendship here, in this thread
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Jun 12, 2018 20:15
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Ze Pollack posted:those who wish to explain why it is necessary to legalize banks openly discriminating against black people in order to support the democratic party can find comfort and friendship here, in this thread However what I really disagree with is that this also means you have to vote for Democrats in the general no matter what. It doesn't follow, and in fact in light of the tape of Steny Hoyer admitting that the Democrats will interfere in their own primaries (i.e. they are not committed to democracy), it can be counterproductive.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:30
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Yeah. I don't really see how things can be fixed without working within the system. However one of the biggest hurdles is the cycle of: Democratic leaders used their influence in primaries both publicly (just look at everyone coming out for Cuomo despite him being garbage and actively negative towards Democratic power in New York) and secretly -> win because Republican is absolutely toxic or the area has voted Democrat forever -> Use primary win to claim that there is no need to move left whatsoever -> Use elected position and connections to further influence primaries -> repeat. There is a serious push back against moving the party leftward to even things that are popular among both Republicans and Democratic voters which is why the flippant solution of moving the party left via primaries and then letting the adults handle everything subsequently is incredibly naive. Bad Dems aren't bad because they are forced to be by their constituents, they have an ideology they follow which they don't want to compromise.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:37
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The Democratic system is "gently caress you, we're in charge here!" How exactly do you change that from within?
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Jun 12, 2018 20:40
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The Democratic system is "gently caress you, we're in charge here!" I'm not saying it's guaranteed to work, but like for example I will hold a technically "elected" office from December (quotes because I ran unopposed) which doesn't amount to much but it will allow me to have a very small impact on the next DNC leadership elections. And it means people take me a little more seriously locally. There are parts of our democracy which are not yet horribly broken, but they mostly exist at the lower levels of government. And they are, to be sure, mostly filled with status-quo busybodies, but they are busybodies you can influence personally and they're also much easier to replace if necessary. If enough people get active in the Democratic party at the state and local levels it will change. I think. Or the national party will just impose changes to squash democracy at the lower levels. We shall see.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:55
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Kilroy posted:Basically from the bottom up. I guess. Pretty much this, start at the state and local level. Purge state parties of the filth, and then you can even amybe start trying to put up some hoops for the chamber of commerce types to jump through. Take over state parties and then you can start to pressure the DNC. Still I would say it's a good idea to do stuff with the DSA just in case the whole thing doesn't work.
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Jun 12, 2018 20:58
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Rent-A-Cop posted:The Democratic system is "gently caress you, we're in charge here!" Repubs started in the 70s with the austerity people on a local and state level. It's going to take a very long time to counteract that from the left but the DSA and other orgs are slowly making advancements. Lee Carter in Virginia was a nice shot across the bow.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:01
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Matt Zerella posted:It's going to take a very long time
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Jun 12, 2018 21:05
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Rent-A-Cop posted:With all due respect, gently caress that. I agree but it is what it is. In 2 weeks I get to vote for a DSA backed challenger to Joseph Crowley here in NY. Her name is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and she owns all the bones. https://youtu.be/rq3QXIVR0bs Baby steps, but sometimes the steps are good as heck.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:08
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Kilroy posted:One thing I agreed with in that thread is that we've have to engage with and change the Democratic party from within. I will continue to believe this until someone can point out a more viable path forward for leftism in the US. It doesn't mean you have to vote for Dems no matter what. What it does mean is you probably should vote for the least worst option, which almost always is the Dem. What people don't like is "least worst" doesn't always mean "a good person".
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Jun 12, 2018 21:09
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Matt Zerella posted:I agree but it is what it is. In 2 weeks I get to vote for a DSA backed challenger to Joseph Crowley here in NY. Her name is Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and she owns all the bones.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:10
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Jaxyon posted:It doesn't mean you have to vote for Dems no matter what. What it does mean is you probably should vote for the least worst option, which almost always is the Dem. I think 2016 showed that this doesn't work anymore and the big reason for the rift is the powers that be don't want to change, because their donors won't allow it. Things like Universal Healthcare and Legal Weed are slam dunk policies and should be pillars for 2020. But instead we are getting establishment weasel words like "access to Medicare Extra" and "decriminalization" from Chucky, Kamala, and co.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:12
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Rent-A-Cop posted:I hope she wins, and I hope if she doesn't you have the good sense to withhold your vote in the general. Crowley is a quintessential NY Baddem (along with Cuomo, Gillibrand, and Schumer) and he will never have my vote. I'll probably leave that part blank if he gets the nom.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:13
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The problem with the slow and steady approach to taking over the Democrats is that it'll lead to even more kicking the can down the road while the country gets shittier and shittier in the meantime, and if it gets much shittier then you're just one actually competent fascist appearing on the political scene away from being totally hosed.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:17
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Jaxyon posted:It doesn't mean you have to vote for Dems no matter what. What it does mean is you probably should vote for the least worst option, which almost always is the Dem. Bullshit, if "least worst" is someone who is pretty much a Clintonite or Blue Dog, then gently caress it. Let the GOP win in that case.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:18
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Jaxyon posted:It doesn't mean you have to vote for Dems no matter what. What it does mean is you probably should vote for the least worst option, which almost always is the Dem. sorry, i'm not going to vote for republicans. and manchin, who wants to hug trump and support him, is a republican
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Jun 12, 2018 21:19
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Crowsbeak posted:Bullshit, if "least worst" is someone who is pretty much a Clintonite or Blue Dog, then gently caress it. Let the GOP win in that case. What's hilarious is that maybe like 5-10 people on this board would agree with you and the potential loss of those 5-10 votes freaks out the centrists so goddamned much. And the solution is never ever "run better candidates" it always boils down to "blame the voters"
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Jun 12, 2018 21:20
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Cerebral Bore posted:The problem with the slow and steady approach to taking over the Democrats is that it'll lead to even more kicking the can down the road while the country gets shittier and shittier in the meantime, and if it gets much shittier then you're just one actually competent fascist appearing on the political scene away from being totally hosed. That's France right now. I agree with you. I'm partially accelerationist in that I think things have to get worse to get better. But in order for things to get better we need to build a bench behind Bernie, Ellison, and Krasner. Krasner is a perfect example as to why local elections are insanely important to helping your day to day life. He's doing amazing work in Philly on cop and justice system reform. The reason why I'm partially accelerationist and not full on is that a lot of people are going to die or be hurt and I'd like to avoid that.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:21
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Matt Zerella posted:I think 2016 showed that this doesn't work anymore and the big reason for the rift is the powers that be don't want to change, because their donors won't allow it. II don't get how 2016 proved that doesn't work anymore. Crowsbeak posted:Bullshit, if "least worst" is someone who is pretty much a Clintonite or Blue Dog, then gently caress it. Let the GOP win in that case. Condiv posted:sorry, i'm not going to vote for republicans. and manchin, who wants to hug trump and support him, is a republican Like I said in my earlier post. People don't like voting for least worst.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:21
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Matt Zerella posted:I'm partially accelerationist in that I think things have to get worse to get better. You mean you have a mild understanding of complexity theory, more so than like 99% of the posters on this board. http://noahraford.com/?p=48 https://www.slideshare.net/noahraford/collapse-dynamics-phase-transitions-in-complex-social-systems
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Jun 12, 2018 21:26
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Jaxyon posted:II don't get how 2016 proved that doesn't work anymore. he's not least worst. that was swearengin. and the dems rigged the primary against her in favor of a republican. so there is literally no reason to support that republican. if the dem leadership think the trump hugger is the best shot to win and rig the primaries to help him then they can elect him themselves.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:27
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Jaxyon posted:Like I said in my earlier post. People don't like voting for least worst. So maybe it's pretty dumb to base your political strategy on people doing that, then?
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Jun 12, 2018 21:28
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self unaware posted:You mean you have a mild understanding of complexity theory, more so than like 99% of the posters on this board. Sure, probably. I try my hardest not to act like I know everything. Those links made my eyes glaze over a bit though. I'll try to digest them later.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:30
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Condiv posted:he's not least worst. that was swearengin. and the dems rigged the primary against her in favor of a republican. so there is literally no reason to support that republican. if the dem leadership think the trump hugger is the best shot to win and rig the primaries to help him then they can elect him themselves. He's the least worst in the election. I'm not talking about primaries. Cerebral Bore posted:So maybe it's pretty dumb to base your political strategy on people doing that, then? That's not their strategy. Their strategy is having the most milquetoast electable person possible.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:35
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my point is that "accelerationist" is more or less a slur but the idea that things have to get worse to get better is about as solid as it gets. there's a reason the new deal followed the great depression and it's not because FDR stocked away enough political capital but yeah, that guy's talk is dense but worth a read/listen if you're into dry academia
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Jun 12, 2018 21:36
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self unaware posted:my point is that "accelerationist" is more or less a slur but the idea that things have to get worse to get better is about as solid as it gets. there's a reason the new deal followed the great depression and it's not because FDR stocked away enough political capital Nobody argues that, they argue how bad it has to get, how quickly, and who gets to suck it up and take one for the team to meet the acceleration goals. It's a slur because it involves advocating for MORE suffering, when most normal people want less.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:37
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Cerebral Bore posted:The problem with the slow and steady approach to taking over the Democrats is that it'll lead to even more kicking the can down the road while the country gets shittier and shittier in the meantime, and if it gets much shittier then you're just one actually competent fascist appearing on the political scene away from being totally hosed.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:38
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self unaware posted:my point is that "accelerationist" is more or less a slur but the idea that things have to get worse to get better is about as solid as it gets. there's a reason the new deal followed the great depression and it's not because FDR stocked away enough political capital accelerationism is and remains the only ideology more masturbatory than libertarianism all the "the arc of history inevitably bends towards justice" do-nothing fantasy of liberalism, combined with the conservative fetishization of the suffering of the weak as something that is good and necessary for progress. take up scourging yourself, at least that way the person suffering for your gratification will be you.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:38
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Jaxyon posted:He's the least worst in the election. I'm not talking about primaries. it doesn't matter. lesser evilism only applies when there are fair primaries. to vote for the "lesser" evil when the greater evil was chosen for us by the party encourages the party to keep rigging primaries and keep choosing greater and greater evils. no thanks you can vote for trump hugger if you like, and you can have a warm fuzzy over voting for a man who wants to support trump, but i'm not voting for a republican like that, and i'm definitely not voting for a candidate forced on me through a rigged primary.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:40
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Jaxyon posted:Nobody argues that, they argue how bad it has to get, how quickly, and who gets to suck it up and take one for the team to meet the acceleration goals. Nobody is advocating for more suffering. Nobody is talking about voting for Trump to bring about the apocalypse. What we're talking about is that incrementalism is doomed to failure and there are requirements on the material conditions of society for it to experience any sort of drastic change. Crisis is literally required for complex system to change. Voting for Hillary is just as accelerationist. More income inequality, more handouts for the oligarchs. The only "accelerationists" are people voting for Democrats and Republicans while the globe keeps burning. Ze Pollack posted:accelerationism is and remains the only ideology more masturbatory than libertarianism oh look it's mr 20 words to say "I think you're an accelerationist because I'm an idiot" i'm not saying the change that will come about as a result of crisis will be good, only that ANY major changes to our political systems require crisis. I'm sure you'll go into some sort of pseduointellectual deep dive on horeshoe theory next.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:40
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Jaxyon posted:II don't get how 2016 proved that doesn't work anymore.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:42
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accelerationism isn't an ideology and pretending like it is does nothing other than validate centrist attacks on people with "radical" political views like "it's not ok to own slaves" or "we shouldn't be carpet bombing the middle east"
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Jun 12, 2018 21:44
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Condiv posted:it doesn't matter. lesser evilism only applies when there are fair primaries. to vote for the "lesser" evil when the greater evil was chosen for us by the party encourages the party to keep rigging primaries and keep choosing greater and greater evils. no thanks Again, lesser evil refers to the election. You can complain about the primaries, but that doesn't change who's up for office. Getting upset about political parties doing political party poo poo doesn't change it. Kilroy posted:I don't think the election of Trump proved it, but the DNC's improper influence on the primaries, and the elevation of Tom Perez to DNC chair for literally no reason other than "the left doesn't want him" (even to the point of insisting he's not so different that Ellison - just do what we want just because), and then the Steny Hoyer tape pretty much seal the deal. The Democratic party establishment has to be just completely overthrown and driven out of power, and that precludes voting for establishment-backed Democrats in elections. I agree with changing the party from the inside, but I don't see how strengthening the GOP helps get leftist change in Dem leadership. It looks to me like you'd get the oppposite.
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Jun 12, 2018 21:46
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Jaxyon posted:Again, lesser evil refers to the election. You can complain about the primaries, but that doesn't change who's up for office. and i've explained why the behavior in the primary invalidates the lesser evil reasoning. we will just continue to have evil if we allow dems to rig the primaries for the greater evil. besides, there's no point voting for a facist sympathizer and supporter like manchin. at that point you're just voting for evil. period. you're not helping anyone by voting for him Jaxyon posted:I agree with changing the party from the inside, but I don't see how strengthening the GOP helps get leftist change in Dem leadership. It looks to me like you'd get the oppposite. purging the bad dems helps change the party. it's not a nice method, but it's required at this point unfortunately since the bad dems are rigging primaries to try to keep power Condiv fucked around with this message at 21:51 on Jun 12, 2018 |
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Jun 12, 2018 21:49
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Scene: City street Cops mill about. A young Black man lies face down in a pool of blood. A liberal leans over the prone youth and whispers in his ear. "You have to work within the system."
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Jun 12, 2018 21:50
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Condiv posted:and i've explained why the behavior in the primary invalidates the lesser evil reasoning. we will just continue to have evil if we allow dems to rig the primaries for the greater evil. Political parties do political party poo poo. This isn't exactly new. You can either change that or go full Apathy. It doesn't invalidate lesser evil reasoning. You just don't like it. Neither do I, but that doesn't change reality. quote:purging the bad dems helps change the party. it's not a nice method, but it's required at this point unfortunately since the bad dems are rigging primaries to try to keep power How are you purging them?
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Jun 12, 2018 21:55
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Rent-A-Cop posted:Scene: City street At his funeral, forums poster with "ironic" tankie hat, gives eulogy. "What your dear departed friend understood was, he needed to die so that white leftists would be willing to vote. Things need to get worse to get the people woke".
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Jun 12, 2018 21:57
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Jaxyon posted:Political parties do political party poo poo. This isn't exactly new. You can either change that or go full Apathy. It doesn't invalidate lesser evil reasoning. You just don't like it. if i vote for the candidates the party rigged the primary for, how am i changing poo poo? oh that's right, i'm not. and lesser evil reasoning either applies to the primaries too or it doesn't apply at all. and the party decided it doesn't apply at all when it rigs the primaries for the greater evil. they can go ahead and clean up their own mess now thanks also, what is the reasoning on lesser evil with manchin? he supports trump. how is it helping anything to vote for him?
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Jun 12, 2018 21:59
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