Cerebral Bore posted:

You do seem to miss the obvious implications, though.

quote:

Like right here. What the gently caress is this horseshit framing? Centrists don't give a poo poo about pragmatism, as made obvious by literally everything they've done since 11/9.

Jaxyon posted:

You think the average Dem voter loves inequality?

Jaxyon posted:

Not really, no.


I've never met someone who loves Manchin outside of WV. The most strident people who about Swearingen from the Dem side are generally saying "you're loving things up and a Republican is going to win". Which is different.

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Are you European or do you mean November 9th?

Rent-A-Cop posted:

Are you European or do you mean November 9th?

Matt Zerella posted:

The average dem voter lives in a coastal enclave and does not give a poo poo about income inequality.

Cerebral Bore posted:

And they're lying. Which is what you don't get. Which is extremely dumb.

Seyser Koze posted:

Day after the 2016 election.

Jaxyon posted:

No, liberals don't love Manchin. Many hate him and want him primaried. Most feel he's a necessarily evil because he's the only Democrat that can currently win that seat in WV.

If your choice is between a poo poo guy and a white supremacist, yeah vote for the poo poo guy if it's a close election.

Jaxyon posted:

Black folks who have a choice between two racists often stay home. But black folks who have the choice between a lovely Democrat and an openly racist gently caress generally go out and vote hard for the lesser evil. Because they will be directly get hosed by the racist.

theCalamity posted:

Manchin is proud to have voted for the border wall. He’s not a full on Nazi, but he is explicitly helping white supremacy.

quote:

Black person here. A lot of us are frustrated with Democrats because despite us voting for them again and again, they barely do anything to help us. How many are trying to legalize weed and expunge records for those who got caught with weed? How many are trying to end the war on drugs? There’s a bit now, but when they were in power, they didn’t try to do poo poo.

That said, we recognize the difference between systemic racism that perpetuates white supremacy and advocates of white supremacy. Dems aren’t trying to dismantle the former in any meaningful way.

Jaxyon posted:

Naive, dude.


I realize you have to convince yourself that all Democratic voters are basically the same as republicans in order to keep up with hating them as much or more than Republicans, but your brain problems don't make me dumb.

Jaxyon posted:

Yes, he's poo poo, I know he's poo poo.


Yeah, I realize that black folks aren't a monolithic entity on the issue, and and I realize why a lot of black folks don't vote rather than voting for Democrats.

I'm working off of the hypothetical given.

The question is, do you attempt to change Democrats at all, or do you let Republicans win and hope you can do a parallel party or that eventually with enough power in Republican hands, suddenly a challenger appears. I think the latter is a pretty big risk, even if I don't think the former looks like a really poo poo path.

theCalamity posted:

We’ve been trying to change Democrats, but it’s hard to be listened to when the party knows we can’t go anywhere else. We’ve been hampered by people saying that we must vote for the lesser evil. We get browbeaten to vote Dem every time because who the gently caress else are we going to vote for?

Honestly, blaming apathetic voters is condescending. The Democrats are letting the GOP win by not being substantially better. The Dems in power now know what they need to do, they just don’t want to do it. They’re not dumb, they’re cowardly and corrupt. Voting again and again for cowardly and corrupt Dems isn’t helping.

quote:

EDIT: If you know Manchin is poo poo, don’t defend him. Let’s stop protecting lovely people simply because they are Democrats.

Jaxyon posted:

I'm not blaming apathetic voters. I'm saying I understand why people are apathetic. I already said that I agree that having 2 poo poo candidates drive voting down long term.

I also agree that lesser evil voting sucks and having no other options sucks.

quote:

When did I defend him? Explaining why people react a certain way isn't defending him.

Condiv posted:

and then you go ahead and insist people buy into lesser evil bullshit. they have other options. like not voting for evil democrats. your lesser evil strategy is completely deficient and hasn't helped in 20 years.

dude already told you this poo poo though, and you completely loving ignore him and say "whelp, that sucks! vote dem!! "

for some reason you imagine you're an ally to disenfranchised groups and then have the gall to condescendingly ignore everything they tell you and insist that "no! i'm right! now keep following this failed policy for the next 40 years and it will eventually pay dividends!"

every loving time you say that he's a lesser evil worth voting for. he's not. he's a racist, sexist, homophobic shitbird that stands counter to everything you claim to want the dem party to be. and you can't help but advocate for voting for the shitlord and pretending that no other option was available

Jaxyon posted:

Your strawman of what you want me to have said is different from what I've actually said. Sorry dude.

Jaxyon posted:

I also agree that lesser evil voting sucks and having no other options sucks.

Jaxyon posted:

I'm not blaming apathetic voters. I'm saying I understand why people are apathetic. I already said that I agree that having 2 poo poo candidates drive voting down long term.

I also agree that lesser evil voting sucks and having no other options sucks.

quote:

When did I defend him? Explaining why people react a certain way isn't defending him.

Condiv posted:

no, it's really not. here, i'll quote your response for you:


you offer empty sympathy, and then cast him as not having a choice, despite him saying that the lesser evil strategy is failing him and that he doesn't feel it should apply anymore. he feels he has another choice, and you insist he doesn't.

you ignored what he said and asserted, once again, that you are right that the lesser evil is the only valid option.

stop condescending to people you supposedly support

theCalamity posted:

I do have another option. I can vote third party or not vote for a bad Dem. THAT is the lesser evil.

quote:

You called him a lesser, necessary evil, no?

Jaxyon posted:

Yeah because arguing who's the better friend of the self-identified black poster isn't condescending.

quote:

You sure can. I'm arguing that people who choose a different way are not the enemy.

quote:

I said he's the lesser evil, and that he's probably the only Dem that can get elected in WV right now. Swearingen was 100% a better person but she's not on the ballot.

If it's close, I'd vote for him, even if I didn't like it.

Condiv posted:

i didn't say anything about myself jaxyon. i pointed out that you were ignoring his point of view.

quote:

this is an entirely different tune than you've been singing the whole thread, where you claim that people that choose a different way are abandoning minorities and the disenfranchised. which is it jaxyon?

quote:

why would you vote for a racist at all if you want the dem party to not be racist? also, swearengin is not on the ballot cause the dems rigged the primary against her for said racist

Jaxyon posted:

quote:

You're confusing your strawman of me with what I'm actually saying.

What I've been saying is that both sides accuse each other of abandoning minorities. Everyone, including minorities, have people that support each tactic.

Jaxyon posted:

Are the folks who are going to be in prisons, disenfranchised, denied civil rights, going to OK with the gamble you took on their backs?

quote:

Are you saying that Democrats committed voter fraud to make Manchin win by a large percentage, or that they supported a lovely candidate in the primary because they thought he could win/owed him a favor/corruption/whatever, and he won it.

Matt Zerella posted:

I'm voting Alexandria Ocasio Cortez and Cynthia Nixon in NY primaries and if neither of them make it to the general im not voting for Cuomo or Crowley and if you think I'm part of some problem you can kiss my grits because Cuomo and Crowley are corrupt shitbirds.

Condiv posted:

not to mention that the dem party is rigging poo poo in favor of cuomo and crowley as well. it doesn't get more nakedly obvious when perez says that the party should stop interfering in primaries and then he turns around and endorses cuomo when the primary hasn't even finished.

Jaxyon posted:

Yeah because arguing who's the better friend of the self-identified black poster isn't condescending.


You sure can. I'm arguing that people who choose a different way are not the enemy.

quote:

I said he's the lesser evil, and that he's probably the only Dem that can get elected in WV right now. Swearingen was 100% a better person but she's not on the ballot.

If it's close, I'd vote for him, even if I didn't like it.

Condiv posted:

no jaxyon, i'm literally paraphrasing you from yesterday:


that's not you saying that both sides accuse the other of abandoning minorities. that's you literally claiming that i'm doing that by not voting the way you think i should vote

Condiv posted:

then so be it. we can't correct the course of the party without taking risks. the dem party has made drat sure of that.

quote:

they bankrolled him, used media connections to blackout his opponent, and every other institutional advantage the democratic party as a whole could give him. hth

theCalamity posted:

Go tell that to the ones who say that I’d sell out minorities by not voting for a racist.

Manchin is not an ally. He’s racist and a bigot. He proudly said that he voted for the wall and wanted Mexico to pay for it. He supports DOMA and when Obergefell got decided, he grudgingly put out a statement saying that WV will follow federal law and the decisions of the Supreme Court. He is not a lesser evil: he is an evil. And by voting for him, YOU are gambling on the lives of the disenfranchised.

Jaxyon posted:

That's in response to the idea your specific idiocy:


Where you cavalierly decided that allowing any opposition to Republicans to become so weak that they can't do anything was a risk you're willing to take.

You are trying to say that I mean that's my stance to all third party voting. That's a strawman, gently caress off.

Jaxyon posted:

I sure am, with every vote. I can't see the future. But I feel that voting for people who have no chance at wining is also doing that.

quote:

That's not what vote rigging is.

quote:

That doesn't mean I support what they did.

Condiv posted:

no, it's not. you literally claimed that they would become that weak as a result of third party voting jaxyon. are you now stooping to outright lying about what you posted?

quote:

i didn't say vote rigging jaxyon. i said they rigged the primary. please try to follow along with the discussion.

quote:

you sure seem to since you want to reward the racist trump hugger with your vote

Jaxyon posted:

No, I said "what if". You blew that of as "so be it".

quote:

That's not primary rigging either.

quote:

Definition of rig
rigged; rigging
transitive verb
1 : to manipulate or control usually by deceptive or dishonest means

rig an election

quote:

No, I don't want to. One of the two people in that election will win. Unless you're thinking that a huge upswell of third party votes is going to happen.

sirtommygunn posted:

Jaxyon does this every month and yet we never learn to stop responding to him.

Jaxyon posted:

Every once in a while I try to have this conversation with the same 4 posters.

I think we're all pretty stupid.

Jaxyon posted:

Every once in a while I try to have this conversation with the same 4 posters.

I think we're all pretty stupid.

Condiv posted:

you're not having a conversation. you're trying to harangue people into supporting your idiotic voting "strategy". if you were intent on having a discussion, you'd have actually laid out some sort of strategy where the change you want happens even though you voted for manchin and others.

all you do is say "vote the lesser evil" and offer no path towards non-lovely dems having a say in the party.

Jaxyon posted:

Yeah I'm haranguing, when any disagreement with you is "well you must love racism, since you want to vote for racists and love voting for them and want to marry them.

Whatever, dude.

The path to having less lovely dems is to get more good people involved at lower levels and work up the ladder. It's slow and hard and it may not work.

It's also a viable path. That you poo poo on and harangue because you don't like it.

Jaxyon posted:

Every once in a while I try to have this conversation with the same 4 posters.

I think we're all pretty stupid.

Condiv posted:

we've been trying that path. and dems are blocking us with the primary rigging that you just pretended doesn't exist. again, you need to provide a viable strategy, not the same canned replies we've heard for 2 years. if you're just saying the same poo poo you were saying 2 years ago, you're not having a converation. you're lecturing and condescending. hth

edit: oh and btw, all that stuff is what we're already advocating for. fighting on all levels, getting in as many good dems as we can. the difference though is that we're not voting for the "lesser" evil since dems are rigging primaries and supporting the greater evil in primaries and trying to freeze us out at every level they can. that you don't even get that shows that you are not having a conversation in this thread. you're not listening to anyone. you're just talking down to us and haranguing us for not voting for the lesser evil.

Jaxyon posted:

Black folks who have a choice between two racists often stay home. But black folks who have the choice between a lovely Democrat and an openly racist gently caress generally go out and vote hard for the lesser evil. Because they will be directly get hosed by the racist.

Jaxyon posted:

I'm literally going nearly line by line and replying, but I'm not having a conversation.

Met not agreeing with everything you say doesn't mean we're not having a conversation.

Here's a conversation: You seem to agree with me on everything except the viability of lesser evil voting, based on this post. I'm not haranguing, I'm telling you what I think. I think you're haranguing me and talking down to me.

Consider: Maybe we just disagree and some or both of us are being shits about it. But I bet you think it's just me and I think it may be both of us. Funny that.