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I genuinely thought up until the husband bursts into flames that everything was in her head. I love all the misdirection in this in light of just how standard and gruesome the ending is. Someone way, way up thread compared this to “mother!” and I agree, maybe because of the unfulfilled expectations and the extremity of how things end (also the number of people who seemed to think the entire thing was beyond goofy and not spooky at all despite it scaring the piss out of me).
warez fucked around with this message at 07:46 on Jun 14, 2018 |
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Jun 14, 2018 07:43
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https://twitter.com/simpsonsfilms/status/1007343252838797313
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Jun 14, 2018 21:07
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Every time I think about this movie now I just remember the scene from Cabin in the Woods. "I'm drawing a line in the loving sand here, do not read the latin" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqRnnk37vx4
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Jun 14, 2018 23:06
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I feel quite conflicted on this film. I thought it was stronger as a family drama and initially I really didn't like the final scene. I think I read too much into it being called "Hereditary" and initially felt like the addition of the cult undermined the generational/family aspects of the film. Obviously I realise the two are intertwined, but when I was watching it, it felt very unnecessary and like a bridge too far on the horror tropes. The seance was about as much supernatural stuff as I wanted from the film to be honest. The real horror was the grief/loving up your kids/fear of loving up your kids. The one bit that got a chuckle from me (in a good way) was when the school phones up the first time and says that the brother is convinced a vengeful spirit is coming after him. In hindsight the cult was very well signposted and were clearly controlling things, but at the time it reeeeeally didn't fly with me. It's a shame, because up until the cult stuff I think it's by far the scariest of the recent big indie horrors. The Witch, Babadook etc all felt like films which were sort of horror adjacent. They weren't really scary but I loved the stories they told. This one properly had my squirming in my seat. I went to see it alone and when I left the cinema my forearms were red from where I had been gripping myself. Like I say, conflicted overall though. Personally think the story didn't need the cult, and I certainly wasn't expecting that to be part of the film, but the cult wouldn't have been effective if I had known that was part of the story either. It bugs me because I really wanted to love this, and the ending of The Witch totally worked for me. This thread has definitely made me appreciate the film more, but was it really successful if I had to come and read an SA thread to enjoy a film's ending in hindsight? Also was/am surprised that the dad never tried to leave the house with the son. Especially with a clear divide between them and the mother, and this emphasis that all the family have to be in the house when the seance occurs. Also I immediately mistrusted Ann Dowd's character because of her role in The Leftovers.
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Jun 15, 2018 00:00
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I’m glad they made the movie exactly the way they did because it’s great and I wouldn’t change a thing.
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Jun 15, 2018 00:36
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I keep thinking about the visual with the grandma sitting by the fire in the woods that Charly sees. So good.
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Jun 15, 2018 00:41
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Hahahahahaha I just got back from seeing it a second time. It really benefits from a second viewing. Knowing how it ends makes several things that happen earlier in the movie make more sense.
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Jun 15, 2018 00:53
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Anyone know what Anne took out of her mouth when she took a sip of tea when sitting with Joan in her apartment? Someone mentioned it before but I really would like thorough help on finding some resolution with this. I barely noticed it on my first viewing, despite having its own close-up. It looked blackish-green and a bit crumbly. Upon my second viewing, I started wondering if it was perhaps a piece of Ellen's body. It seems like that sort of thing would be in the particular ritual the cult carried out.
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Jun 15, 2018 04:43
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:I just got back from seeing it a second time. It really benefits from a second viewing. Knowing how it ends makes several things that happen earlier in the movie make more sense. Agreed. Like when Annie notes all the new faces at her mother's funeral. Or how the weird way Peter's arm contorts before he smashes his face into the desk is similar to the staff the Paimon figure is holding at the end. Also kudos to whoever noticed that when Peter blows the smoke out the window there seems to be a person standing in the foreground watching him whose breath you can also see. Also all the cult member cameos: - the guy who grins at Charlie during the funeral is the first cultist that Peter sees in the house at the end - the woman who smiles and waves at Charlie after she cuts the head off the bird is the cultist who waves at Peter in the attic - Peter has class with two teachers, the one that talks about mythology and the one who talks about history, not 100% certain but I think the former shows up outside after peter jumps through the window and the latter shows up in the attic Awps R. Band posted:Anyone know what Anne took out of her mouth when she took a sip of tea when sitting with Joan in her apartment? Someone mentioned it before but I really would like thorough help on finding some resolution with this. Apparently in the script it was made clear that the way the Grandma put Paimon into Charlie's body when she was a baby was through herbs in her milk, so Joan was doing something similar to Annie. However I can't confirm this because all copies of the script online seem to have been taken down. Maybe if the original 3-hour cut is included on the blu-ray it will explain.
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Jun 15, 2018 08:19
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I saw this again because I couldn't get it out of my head. Assorted observations that I missed the first time: When Charlie walks toward her grandmother sitting near flames, she's following a track of adult footprints. And when we see grandma, there seems to be a red line across her neck, like it's been cut. Joan is visible at the first group therapy session that Annie attends after her mother's death. Annie tried to set Charlie on fire as well as Peter during the incident she describes to Joan. It's easy to miss, but she mentions that the kids shared a bedroom at the time. All three of them were covered in paint thinner, but Charlie slept through it. The thing in the tea that Joan gave to Annie looked like a piece of leaf maybe. It's a quick shot so I couldn't get a good look. I didn't see Joan buying a chalkboard when Annie ran into her at the store. It looked like she was buying a picture frame or something. Whatever it was, it was much larger than the child's chalkboard that was used in the seance. She had to lift it up to load it into her car. When Joan asks her conjured grandson whether he's in pain, we don't get a direct answer via sliding glass, just a woosh of air. Pretty ominous in retrospect. Cultists I recognized during the end sequence: guy who smiled at Charlie at the funeral, lady who waved at Charlie after she decapitated the dead bird, Peter's history teacher who was droning on about the great depression. There were more but I didn't recognize them. I'd bet some of them can be seen at the group therapy sessions. e;fb on this one dammit The headless corpses of Annie and her mother reposition themselves during the crowning ceremony at the end. They're bowing to the crowned Charlie head, and then Joan takes the crown and places it on Peter, and the camera reveals that the corpses have turned around and are now bowing to him. acksplode fucked around with this message at 08:51 on Jun 15, 2018 |
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Jun 15, 2018 08:49
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Saw this film last night and I’m still thinking about it, genuinely think this may be considered a classic of the genre in time. Holy hell everything about it was powerful and well-crafted. It reminded me a lot of recurring nightmares I had as a teenager so it’s stuck in an uncomfortable spot with me.
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Jun 15, 2018 10:47
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I'm really curious what Paimon will do for these people.
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Jun 15, 2018 14:10
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I thought it was explained he would shower them with wealth.
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Jun 15, 2018 14:22
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Sure, but I'm curious about the process. What are the actual nitty-gritty details of serving Paimon, what kind of benefits do you receive, and how does it affect your afterlife? I mean, if you're granted a sweet place in hell then it's frankly a pretty good deal.
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Jun 15, 2018 15:12
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Paimon knows how to take a weight of your shoulders.
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Jun 15, 2018 15:18
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Magic Hate Ball posted:Sure, but I'm curious about the process. What are the actual nitty-gritty details of serving Paimon, what kind of benefits do you receive, and how does it affect your afterlife? I mean, if you're granted a sweet place in hell then it's frankly a pretty good deal. There's some stuff written about how Paimon can appoint like, dukes and princes and such. So that's probably part of it.
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Jun 15, 2018 17:35
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Magic Hate Ball posted:Sure, but I'm curious about the process. What are the actual nitty-gritty details of serving Paimon, what kind of benefits do you receive, and how does it affect your afterlife? I mean, if you're granted a sweet place in hell then it's frankly a pretty good deal. It's intentionally unclear. Throughout the movie, the Leighs and the audience are desperate to find some reason, some framework within which to comprehend things like Charlie's death and Annie's dual roles as abuser/abuse victim. The irony of the ending is that the climax, the final tableau especially, is exactly the revelation we were all waiting for, and it too turns out to be nothing more than a tiny part of a whole that defies human comprehension. It's an absurdist conclusion. What the cultists' expect and will receive from Paimon is the only thing he can provide: chaos.
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Jun 15, 2018 18:11
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Budgie Jumping posted:It's intentionally unclear. Throughout the movie, the Leighs and the audience are desperate to find some reason, some framework within which to comprehend things like Charlie's death and Annie's dual roles as abuser/abuse victim. The irony of the ending is that the climax, the final tableau especially, is exactly the revelation we were all waiting for, and it too turns out to be nothing more than a tiny part of a whole that defies human comprehension. It's an absurdist conclusion. Yeah, but does he offer dental?
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Jun 15, 2018 18:32
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It’s at least a better deal than what Black Phillip was peddling. “Living deliciously” seems like it’s mostly just hanging out in the woods (naked) and pulping babies.
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Jun 15, 2018 20:32
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Drunkboxer posted:It’s at least a better deal than what Black Phillip was peddling. “Living deliciously” seems like it’s mostly just hanging out in the woods (naked) and pulping babies. What about eating butter, smartass?
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Jun 15, 2018 20:43
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Drunkboxer posted:It’s at least a better deal than what Black Phillip was peddling. “Living deliciously” seems like it’s mostly just hanging out in the woods (naked) and pulping babies. Look at this dude who has never had a pretty dress
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Jun 15, 2018 21:16
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Is living deliciously anything like living mas? If so I want in.
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Jun 15, 2018 22:17
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Magic Hate Ball posted:Sure, but I'm curious about the process. What are the actual nitty-gritty details of serving Paimon, what kind of benefits do you receive, and how does it affect your afterlife? I mean, if you're granted a sweet place in hell then it's frankly a pretty good deal. Stock tips. Also he can tell you exactly when to sell your bitcoins.
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Jun 15, 2018 22:23
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Paimon sounds like a Digimon name, so he's probably the hosed up Gobot equivalent of a devil and his fans definitely should not be allowed around children.
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Jun 15, 2018 22:59
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Pokémon GOetic does sound fun.
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Jun 15, 2018 23:02
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I'm understood the possession as a red herring. What was actually happening was that the mom and son's forbidden desire's were fulfilled in the most perverse way possible. Like by bullet points for the son; his mom wanted his sister and not him so his sister dies and later she stalks him; his mom nearly sets him on fire, later she actually sets dad on fire; he's guilty about his sister's death so his mom beheads herself, etc. The boy's conflict is between embracing and rejecting the horrific outcomes, hence the creepy reflection, guilt and self harm. Similarly, by the point where the mom goes all movie monster, she's undergone parallel experiences. She wanted to be closer to her mom, but when she finally succeeds her mom has advanced dementia; she wanted to get to know her mom's private life and ends up being indoctrinated by a cult; she favors the son she didn't want over the daughter she did, so the son kills the daughter, etc. She's more susceptible than her son hence the spider walking and floating. The goal of the cultists isn't to incarnate some literal demonic king of hell but but that by them (partially) contriving horrific situations they'll create an 'enlightened' sort of person. The supernatural elements in this movie were all pretty ancillary.
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Jun 15, 2018 23:11
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RCarr posted:I thought it was explained he would shower them with wealth. Yes, Peemon is the demon of golden showers. Everything else is a red herring. acksplode posted:The headless corpses of Annie and her mother reposition themselves during the crowning ceremony at the end. They're bowing to the crowned Charlie head, and then Joan takes the crown and places it on Peter, and the camera reveals that the corpses have turned around and are now bowing to him. I think this is the kind of thing that I subconsciously recognized while I was watching it, but it wasn't until I read it here that I realized that's what I had seen.
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Jun 15, 2018 23:53
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I'm wondering about Grandma Leigh's husband's death. He starved himself to death. This has to be related to Paimon somehow, right? Do we think she tried to use him as a vessel, or maybe he starved himself so he wouldn't be a useful host?
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Jun 15, 2018 23:55
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Budgie Jumping posted:Pokémon GOetic does sound fun. Megami Tensei is way ahead of you there.
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Jun 16, 2018 00:00
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While watching I kept thinking I recognized the exterior of one of the apartment buildings and when I got home looked up where it was filmed and saw they shot on location in Utah. Then I remembered the son’s high school had the same name as mine, went and looked closer at shots from the trailer and realized some of the school shots had to have been filmed at my high school. This has made me unreasonably more excited about rewatching it tonight.
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Jun 16, 2018 00:30
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One thing I’m surprised about is the general consensus that Charlie was possessed by Paimon. I was under the impression it was the grandma they were referring to when they talked about the previous female host.
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Jun 16, 2018 01:24
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veni veni veni posted:One thing I’m surprised about is the general consensus that Charlie was possessed by Paimon. I was under the impression it was the grandma they were referring to when they talked about the previous female host. It was definitely Charlie; that's why her severed head was used on the model representing the demon and why they referred to Peter as Charlie when they told him not to worry in that same scene. Gramma didn't want to have Paimon riding her; she wanted to deliver him an earthly host, to up his favor with her cult, to make her his queen. Charlie was a little off because, for Paimon, a female host is an improper vessel (I think they chose the actress they did partially because of her physiognomy. Her face looks a little like it's too wide, like it's straining to hold together and could split in two). --- One thing about Paimon I saw on Wikipedia is that he's a demon adept at "clearing up doubts", which I interpret as the demon offering clarity. With all the mental illness plaguing Ellen, her husband, son and daughter, I could see where that would be very enticing, moreso than even physical wealth (though I don't doubt getting stuff was a motivator as well). It also lines up with the inscription Ellen leaves for her daughter in the book about spiritualism, specifically the part about how she (Annie) can't see it now but this is for the best and when it's over it will all make sense. In a perverse way Ellen is trying to abolish issues that could never be smoothed out for her family through earthly means- but might at very least be somewhat ameliorated through communicate and support- via a long term plan to cajole supernatural powers to "fix" what is wrong in their realty. She is sincerely trying to do what's best, because she can't conceive of mundane existence offering them options to manage their problems. I think a big part of the horror of this movie isn't the demon, but that poor communication and hesitation to be open and support one another fully is what sets this all into motion, and that this poor socialization is the poison passed through generations, not Paimon. Much like a demonic influence, those ultimately destructive coping mechanisms recapitulate unchanged, subtly, just in different packaging. Rather than dealing with issues and being open, schemes are hatched, secrets are kept and power is leveraged through passive aggressive maneuvering and objectifying the subjective in order to escape direct emotion. It's the horror of the waspy protestant\puritan social strategies that flow through much of white America, back from our first coming ashore, down to the modern day. EDIT: also makes me think of this song. The horror of realizing you aren't too physically or mental broken to thrive in your environment, but that you were made insufficient by social influence, and that no matter how you try, you are what you were made to be and serve as a method for an ideal for living to pass itself forward. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8OFUCoeSik mysterious frankie fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jun 16, 2018 |
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Jun 16, 2018 02:33
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Why exactly did she let her old mother breast feed charlie? Old ladies make milk still?
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Jun 16, 2018 02:41
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Tenzarin posted:Why exactly did she let her old mother breast feed charlie? Old ladies make milk still? Guilt over keeping her away from Peter after he was born. And probably demonic manipulation poo poo. Unrelated, a couple other things that jumped out at me after my second viewing but I forgot to mention: When Annie is consoling Charlie after the funeral at the beginning, before she sees SATONY on the wall, she mentions that Charlie has never cried, even as an infant. And when Annie's at the group therapy session and going into her family history, at the end of her monologue she says that she feels "blamed", but she doesn't know what for. It seems to me like she's under some sort of spell that's loading her with undeserved guilt, to make her easier to manipulate. Like a supernatural form of gaslighting. acksplode fucked around with this message at 02:55 on Jun 16, 2018 |
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Jun 16, 2018 02:48
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Did they say she breast fed Charlie? I totally missed that if so.
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Jun 16, 2018 02:51
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mysterious frankie posted:Did they say she breast fed Charlie? I totally missed that if so. It's implied with a brief shot. Annie only says "feed" when she mentions it to Charlie. But after Annie sees her mother's apparition in the dark, she sees a diorama that bothers her and turns it away. The camera then shows that it's a diorama of Annie nursing Charlie in bed, and her mother approaching the bed and offering her breast. acksplode fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jun 16, 2018 |
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Jun 16, 2018 02:57
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acksplode posted:It's implied with a brief shot. Annie only says "feed" when she mentions it to Charlie. But after Annie sees her mother's apparition in the dark, she sees a diorama that bothers her and turns it away. The camera then shows that it's a diorama of Annie nursing Charlie in bed, and her mother approaching the bed and offering her breast. I kinda interpreted that as Annie expressing Ellen's forceful insertion of her own maternal power into her experience as Charlie's new mom, not necessarily an antecedent to Ellen physically nursing Charlie. From personal experience I remember my gramma taking every opportunity to bottle feed my brothers once my mom was comfortable enough to switch them to formula, so that influenced my reading, I think.
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Jun 16, 2018 03:19
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That stuff happens in the first act, so I think it's meant to seem not very weird until you have the context of the long setup for the possession ritual. Edit: I just realized that you're probably suggesting that the diorama wasn't a literal depiction of an actual event. I don't think that's the case, that's not what Annie's project was. Unless I'm mistaken, all her dioramas were exact recreations of scenes from real life. acksplode fucked around with this message at 03:35 on Jun 16, 2018 |
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Jun 16, 2018 03:25
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acksplode posted:Edit: I just realized that you're probably suggesting that the diorama wasn't a literal depiction of an actual event. I don't think that's the case, that's not what Annie's project was. Unless I'm mistaken, all her dioramas were exact recreations of scenes from real life. neutral, objective views, if you like
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Jun 16, 2018 03:41
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acksplode posted:Edit: I just realized that you're probably suggesting that the diorama wasn't a literal depiction of an actual event. I don't think that's the case, that's not what Annie's project was. Unless I'm mistaken, all her dioramas were exact recreations of scenes from real life. Oh no, I think that it literally happened. She reproduces events from her life that she lacks the capacity to emotionally digest, removing the subtext so that she can focus on the text. I'm just saying that I don't think it necessarily intimates that her mom breast fed Charlie.
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Jun 16, 2018 03:48
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