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Go Green Go Nuclear!
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Jun 23, 2018 14:14
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Elephanthead posted:I believe he is suggesting that spending the equivalent cost of ending all poverty on earth to get batteries efficient enough that they can be used in a cost-effective 600-mile range vehicle charged by the remote burning of fossil fuels is not the most thought out plan. A 90% income tax on incomes over $1m/year will give us plenty of money for energy progress AND ending poverty on Earth.
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Jun 23, 2018 14:45
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FilthyImp posted:This may be because I've been awake for 22 hours but is that poster arguing we should be burning the poo poo out of our Oils and using Gasolines as the default car tech? The latter, obviously. As I said, methanol is one of the most compact and convenient forms of energy storage known, beaten out only by some other liquid fuels and by nuclear materials (which aren't exactly convenient). A litre of methanol actually contains more hydrogen than a litre of liquid hydrogen, hilariously enough, and it's a liquid at room temperature that is roughly as safe as gasoline and which can be distributed with a hose. "Burning" it in a fuel cell releases carbon dioxide, but it's pure CO2 and it's released in a single location in the cell so it can easily be piped off and sequestered if required. If you want a complete cycle, methanol can then be synthesized from CO2, water and electricity. Essentially, we already have the "battery" part of the car ready to go in a form that is 15 times more energy-dense than today's best batteries, and which requires no new charging infrastructure or upgraded power lines or whatever. Batteries will always be needed for temporary bursts of power, but we should be working on fuel cells for the basic storage rather than cramming every car on the road full of 15,000 tiny metal cans.
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Jun 23, 2018 16:31
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Sagebrush posted:Essentially, we already have the "battery" part of the car ready to go in a form that is 15 times more energy-dense than today's best batteries, and which requires no new charging infrastructure or upgraded power lines or whatever. Batteries will always be needed for temporary bursts of power, but we should be working on fuel cells for the basic storage rather than cramming every car on the road full of 15,000 tiny metal cans. If you instead generate the methanol closer to the destination then that's your "new charging infrastructure" right there. And generating methanol using electricity is significantly less efficient than putting that electricity into a battery. (Except that batteries are still poo poo and wear out, which is why it's a research area!) Also the engine using your more energy-dense storage is a more failure-prone high-maintenance engine - and you want there to be millions of those. (Though again, the batteries are a bit poo poo.) I hope more research is going into making batteries less poo poo rather than making them more energy-dense, because most of what we do isn't really that worried about the energy density, it's more about the cost and effort, and batteries wearing out is a huge cost. It's kind of a shame, given that the power lines tend to parallel roads, that we can't run cars like electric trams or bumper cars and skip the whole individual storage problem. A range of "10 miles from a powered road, and most roads are powered" would be way better than a range of 200 miles end-to-end.
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Jun 23, 2018 16:55
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But fuel cells (especially methanol) are decades away from viable, economical, commercial mass production? Not to mention the whole converting all fuel refining from oil to methanol problem. Lithium batteries work today, right now. We have a electrical grid, today that allows adoption of EVs that use batteries. It works great, and is much easier to upgrade (requires zero new technology) then retrofitting for methanol. I don't think we have a clue how to make methanol or hydrogen at the scale required to replace petrol in our vehicles. It's not a trivial matter to scale the mass production of a new liquid fuel. We don't even really need more energy dense batteries to replace the majority of vehicles on the road, just cost reduction. I can't understand why you would be opposed to this. If fuel cells ever become economically viable, it's a lot simpler for EV manufactures to replace battery packs with fuel cells then it is for ICE manufacturers to replace petrol burning engines with fuel cells. I was a huge fan of fuel cells 10 years ago but they are not closer to being a viable replacement today then they were 10 years ago. Something about "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" or some such.
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Jun 23, 2018 17:49
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRlq3mSMtYo Who would have predicted that the only 2 viable (I'll include Nissan once the new leaf is for sale...) EV makers would be a new American automobile startup and Jaguar? We live in a cartoon.
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Jun 23, 2018 17:54
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stevobob posted:Does the EV train have enough momentum to keep rolling regardless of Tesla? I don't personally give a poo poo about Tesla as a brand, but I feel that they are one of the biggest reasons EV interest is as high as it is right now. If they go under, and Teslas cease to exist, will other automakers continue the roll into full fleet electrification within my lifetime?
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Jun 23, 2018 18:10
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spandexcajun posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRlq3mSMtYo Bolt.
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Jun 23, 2018 20:00
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blugu64 posted:Bolt. Not a vehicle you could drive off the lot!
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Jun 23, 2018 20:10
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spandexcajun posted:But fuel cells (especially methanol) are decades away from viable, economical, commercial mass production? Not to mention the whole converting all fuel refining from oil to methanol problem. Lithium batteries work today, right now. We have a electrical grid, today that allows adoption of EVs that use batteries. It works great, and is much easier to upgrade (requires zero new technology) then retrofitting for methanol. I don't think we have a clue how to make methanol or hydrogen at the scale required to replace petrol in our vehicles. It's not a trivial matter to scale the mass production of a new liquid fuel. Because it's Sagebrush. He's opposed to everything. If fuel cells became as viable as lithium batteries tomorrow, he'd be writing about why the hell are we wasting time with these stupid fuel cells when we should be using gamma ray space lasers to power our vehicles.
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Jun 23, 2018 20:15
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Sagebrush posted:i don't know why the gently caress we keep putting so much money into batteries when liquid fuels are literally an order of magnitude more energy-dense and available right now Too bad no matter how 'efficient' fuel can be, individual cars waste so drat much of it. Batteries are nice because after an engine generates energy from a fuel in it's most efficient environment(power plant, renewable energy, etc), we can store this energy and use what we need, when we need it. Now be right back, gonna go idle my car with the AC on so it is nice and cool for me and turn my PS4 to rest mode. What do you have to say about diesel electric trains?
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Jun 23, 2018 20:55
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Electric land vehicles are cool & good. Electric aircraft are dubious with a few exceptions like trainers and drones. If our planet didn’t feature fossil fuels, we would have developed artificial hydrocarbons for flight because they are just so good at storing energy.
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Jun 23, 2018 21:28
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Platystemon posted:If our planet didn’t feature fossil fuels, we would have developed artificial hydrocarbons for flight because they are just so good at storing energy.
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Jun 23, 2018 21:32
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blugu64 posted:Bolt. It's a neat car, but nobody wants to buy them and dealers don't want to sell them so nope. EDIT Also, they are ugly as sin and why anyone would buy an spandexcajun fucked around with this message at 22:04 on Jun 23, 2018 |
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Jun 23, 2018 21:57
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roomforthetuna posted:I hope more research is going into making batteries less poo poo rather than making them more energy-dense, because most of what we do isn't really that worried about the energy density, it's more about the cost and effort, and batteries wearing out is a huge cost. Actually, solid-state lithium batteries are supposed to last way longer than common lithium-ion (Pretty much all EVs produced to date appear to have achieved respectable battery life with plain old Li-ion, though they haven't been around long enough to collect proper scientific data for long-term battery performance). Plus they should be way less prone to fire.
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Jun 23, 2018 21:57
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roomforthetuna posted:Or we might have an infrastructure of electric bullet trains with some really impressive ocean-spanning bridges! We could put the trains in some sort of vacuum tube so they can travel extra fast.
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Jun 23, 2018 21:58
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spandexcajun posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRlq3mSMtYo That's really only looking at the top end of the market, which I don't think you should. Nissan-Renault is more than viable, and you can start looking at BYD, etc., overseas...
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Jun 23, 2018 22:13
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A used bolt is pretty high on my list as long as I have my Volt/another car for when I have to go somewhere. I'd personally never consider a Jaguar or Tesla.
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Jun 24, 2018 00:05
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I test drove an '18 Volt today: Highs: - Holy poo poo the engineering in the Voltec drivetrain is excellent. The gas generator kicking in was almost imperceptible and the one I was driving was in "engine maintenance mode" which I only knew due to dash saying so. The only time I heard the engine was when I was messing with the settings and knocked it into Hold and the engine strummed up like when you accelerate in a CVT. - Steering and overall handling were good, and in "L" the drivetrain felt exactly like a Tesla and i3 with the single pedal driving, which is what I was looking for. - Apple CarPlay/Android Auto is excellent and the general infotainment setup is surprisingly good. Digging the cross-traffic alert and other safety gadgets, though I'm sad none of the discounted models I can find have the automatic cruise control option. Apparently that's pretty rare to find in-stock. - Looks like a Pininfarina-designed work of art compared to the only other EREV in its class, the Honda Clarity. Lows: - You can see where GM cut costs in the sea of cheap-as-hell looking plastic covering the dash, but I guess that's the trade-off for that drat good drivetrain. Oddly the interior of the Clarity is miles better but the exterior of that car is The Icon of Ugly. Like when you go to Hell (like all Goons are destined) we'll be surrounded by PT Cruisers, HHRs and Claritys. - The center seat in the rear is literally useless and I don't understand why they even installed a belt there. - Bolt, i3, Tesla and possibly new Leaf owners will be leaving your rear end in the dust acceleration-wise. You'll still give Cute-Utes and Skyactiv Mazda 3's a complete walloping off the line, though. - Still uses gas but I'm never going to be able to afford a Model 3, if they even exist 3 years from now when the "$35k model" is finally produced. I really like the Volt, I'm just terrified of the depreciation on it. The Chevy dealer was pretty up-front about how hard you're gonna get hit on this thing but that's the nature of buying a vehicle with ever-evolving technology powering it. I feel good about how few problems people have had with them and have no worries about reliability aside from the weird issues that pop up with a bad 12v battery. Now to navigate the labyrinth that is auto loan financing. 
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Jun 24, 2018 01:02
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Ripoff posted:- The center seat in the rear is literally useless and I don't understand why they even installed a belt there. The Gen I Volts got a lot of bad impressions and reviews because of the rear bucket seats. The Gen II backseat isn’t really a great sea more useable, but it DOES HAVE a bench. 
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Jun 24, 2018 01:15
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blugu64 posted:A used bolt is pretty high on my list as long as I have my Volt/another car for when I have to go somewhere. I'd personally never consider a Jaguar or Tesla. I'd love for my next car to be pure electric, but I kind of regularly go on trips long enough to require something equivalent to the Supercharger network, and I'd strongly prefer not to deal with owning two cars. My current car (2010 Prius that's just about to turn 100,000) should last roughly another 5-7 years at least. How likely is it that I would have options beyond Tesla when it's time for a new car?
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Jun 24, 2018 02:58
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How long should the 12 volt batteries last in an EV? Seems like the minimum requirement is engaging the main battery interlocks. No cranking!
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Jun 24, 2018 03:27
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Cockmaster posted:How likely is it that I would have options beyond Tesla when it's time for a new car? Theres at least movement in the luxury market!
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Jun 24, 2018 03:37
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FilthyImp posted:Jaguar is doing the iPace, Audi has their eTron A4s. Porsche has a crossover SUV and sedan (with a cool back that looks like a sexier tesla). Yeah, I was kind of hoping for something I could actually afford. Though it looks like VW will also be launching an electric crossover: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114037_volkswagen-id-crozz-electric-suv-to-launch-in-us-in-2020
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Jun 24, 2018 04:49
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Cockmaster posted:I'd love for my next car to be pure electric, but I kind of regularly go on trips long enough to require something equivalent to the Supercharger network, and I'd strongly prefer not to deal with owning two cars. There will be dozens of options by then. Besides Tesla you can already buy a Bolt, Leaf, or Ioniq (west coast only for that one I think). The Kona is about to come out and looks awesome imo. There are a ton scheduled for release in the next 24 months.
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Jun 24, 2018 04:49
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Stick it out for the ACC, it's worth it. I love my Volt after three months of driving (~5k miles) and 98% of it being EV. The middle belt in the back seat was made for me. So I can cram my smallest kid in the back for the extremely few times I have to pick all my kids up or cart them around and my wife's Explorer isn't available. For reference, I was able to get my fully loaded (except for Nav) Blue for $37k out the door in SE Michigan. So under $30k with the tax rebate. Other dealers in the area couldn't get $2-3k near it and it seemed like the office goofed up when negotiating it (via email!) but held to the price. All FWIW.
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Jun 24, 2018 05:00
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Finger Prince posted:And instead we should spend the equivalent cost of ending all poverty on earth in developing a fuel cell that uses hydrocarbons produced by the remote burning of fossil fuels to do the same. And just don't worry about the CO2 byproduct of that fuel cell, I'm sure Future Tech will sort that out. Fuel cells are carbon neutral. Edit: oh hey look a whole 'nother page. ~Coxy fucked around with this message at 05:56 on Jun 24, 2018 |
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Jun 24, 2018 05:50
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LRADIKAL posted:How long should the 12 volt batteries last in an EV? Seems like the minimum requirement is engaging the main battery interlocks. No cranking! I don't have a good answer but I thought it was funny the '13 Leaf I had wouldnt start because of a dead 12-V with a full charge. I'm pretty sure it was some OBD device draining it at the time.
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Jun 24, 2018 06:00
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LRADIKAL posted:How long should the 12 volt batteries last in an EV? Seems like the minimum requirement is engaging the main battery interlocks. No cranking! Abut the same as they do in an ICE car; Two-five years depending on climate. They’re in slightly better conditions because of the constant trickle charge, but they still die, and you’re still hosed if/when it does, despite having multiple kilowatts of electrical energy literally a foot away.
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Jun 24, 2018 11:13
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~Coxy posted:Fuel cells are carbon neutral. Like refinery to tailpipe/cell output? Or because the methanol comes from wood?
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Jun 24, 2018 11:32
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Any opinions on the outlander phev? Wife and I are gonna go test drive one with her commute it will be 99% electric driving only.
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Jun 24, 2018 14:22
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Ripoff posted:I test drove an '18 Volt today: As long as you're willing to drive it for 10+ depreciation doesn't matter that much. If you're really concerned, hook up those sweet sweet subsidized leases.
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Jun 24, 2018 14:51
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Koirhor posted:Any opinions on the outlander phev? Wife and I are gonna go test drive one with her commute it will be 99% electric driving only. Yes, why
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Jun 24, 2018 14:52
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Koirhor posted:Any opinions on the outlander phev? Wife and I are gonna go test drive one with her commute it will be 99% electric driving only. No opinion beyond the pathetic battery size. Seems like they really want to get an SUV product on the market, with PHEV status, at a specific price. Please let us know what you think of it.
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Jun 24, 2018 14:55
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Finger Prince posted:Like refinery to tailpipe/cell output? Or because the methanol comes from wood?
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Jun 24, 2018 15:00
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MrYenko posted:Abut the same as they do in an ICE car; Two-five years depending on climate. They’re in slightly better conditions because of the constant trickle charge, but they still die, and you’re still hosed if/when it does, despite having multiple kilowatts of electrical energy literally a foot away. I completely forgot about replacing my 12V battery on my '03 Civic hybrid. By the time I got around to it the thing was outputting like 8V. Car still started up just fine so long as the hybrid battery had a charge.
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Jun 24, 2018 15:19
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:As long as you're willing to drive it for 10+ depreciation doesn't matter that much. If you're really concerned, hook up those sweet sweet subsidized leases. Subsidized leases come in as cash on lease, which as best I can tell is $3,800, so if you want the full $7,500 you end up buying it outright. The dealers I've been working with have no real desire to push the lease, and even the one decent sales guy I found for the test drive said that they don't "like" doing the leases on the cars. Also I have a mental issue and rarely keep cars for more than 2-3 years because there are so many good cars and I want to own them all goddamnit.  I'm also looking to pay this bad-boy off in 48 months so it won't be a huge issue after year 3 when I get bored and someone produces a machine that sounds and drives like the Toyota TS030 (except for the "exploding every few laps during LeMans" thing).
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Jun 24, 2018 16:05
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Why even consider new cars if you aren't keeping them. You're just throwing money into depreciation.
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Jun 24, 2018 16:18
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Phuzun posted:Why even consider new cars if you aren't keeping them. You're just throwing money into depreciation.
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Jun 24, 2018 16:21
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roomforthetuna posted:Surely a lease must typically consume more money than the depreciation, otherwise why would they offer them. I'm more referring to the lust of owning many cars short term, where buying a 1-2 year old car would avoid the biggest hit in value. With bank roll to pay off in a few years, you could also save some to start paying cash instead of financing for extra haggling leverage.
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Jun 24, 2018 16:30
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