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Beamed posted:It used to be worse when you had no way of manipulating or changing it, it was just an arbitrary income you had no way of influencing. It's..okay, now, but as others have said, it's morphed into kind of a lazy catch-all abstraction. I much prefer it to resources that snowball, such Stellaris' resources. The whole "use points to build stuff that earns points so you can build more stuff that earns more points" is an unfun gameplay loop that I would like to see as little of as possible in Paradox's games. Ducats are like that in EU4 but the presence of limited monarch points keeps it in check. What kind of replacement for monarch points would people want? Beamed posted:EDIT: People who shut down when they unironically hear "mana" are just really bad at discussing games and have no opinions with depth, hth. Even the devs use it now. It's just a word. Anyone who lets it bother them so much has deeper issues. Ham Sandwiches posted:No, you are choosing to assign a dumb pejorative term and consider it clever and you expect people to engage in discourse while being ridiculous, it's not going to happen lmao. It's not even a pejorative in use by most of the people who use it. Like I said, even the devs use it now.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:29
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, what biting commentary thanks for this.
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:lmao. It's not even a pejorative in use by most of the people who use it. The guy using it in this very thread explained it was because he hated mana points being console kiddie COD trash so much dude
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Jun 25, 2018 23:31
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Ham Sandwiches posted:The guy using it in this very thread explained it was because he hated mana points being console kiddie COD trash so much dude ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Let them have their fun and move on. It's not worth getting angry over.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:32
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they call it mana in the code you absolute sperg it is a joke, you see. There's nothing wrong with mana, but hoi and eu4 both inherently use it pretty shittily. Eu4 has them tied into way to many features, military particularly, with no meaningful way to adjust how you get them outside of a bonus. (Which can be a pretty big bonus once you get really rolling, admittedly, but that's end game.) HoI both has it being way to important with you pulling teeth for every five points early on (with it also being pretty hard to actually get it) and then functionally worthless once you're done. Also lmao at ever getting naval XP, doubly lmao that once you're getting it it's to late to make those fancy boats. Phone-mana probably has it the worst of all, though, simply because it's actually pretty rare to have something to spend it on in the first place.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:32
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Even the devs use it now. It's just a word. Anyone who lets it bother them so much has deeper issues. Just to be clear: I am not bothered when someone uses it. When someone uses it, it implies they hate everything about modern Paradox games and I can just skip their opinion because I'd actually like to talk about the games, not why they are bad "these days". This thread is like the worst game of telephone because you can actually go back and re-read the original stated post but eh that's too much work.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:33
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ExtraNoise posted:Just to be clear: I am not bothered when someone uses it. When someone uses it, it implies they hate everything about modern Paradox games and I can just skip their opinion because I'd actually like to talk about the games, not why they are bad "these days". I use it and I really love modern paradox games.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:34
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ExtraNoise posted:Just to be clear: I am not bothered when someone uses it. When someone uses it, it implies they hate everything about modern Paradox games and I can just skip their opinion because I'd actually like to talk about the games, not why they are bad "these days". Yeah that's the whole point, it's a way that you can realize the person making that statement is dumb and chooses to be so, so it helps assign the proper weight to their statements. Please continue to use it if you find it compelling, it really helps.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:35
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I use it and I really love modern paradox games. Yeah but you're a cool dude who makes my original argument hard as hell to follow-up on. poor ninja edit: basically I don't think anyone is mad. except for the people unironically using the word "mana" when writing sperg posts about how they can no longer feel human.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:35
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:I much prefer it to resources that snowball, such Stellaris' resources. The whole "use points to build stuff that earns points so you can build more stuff that earns more points" is an unfun gameplay loop that I would like to see as little of as possible in Paradox's games. Ducats are like that in EU4 but the presence of limited monarch points keeps it in check. I don't know. It's not a solved problem, to be honest with you. I've said that before - Paradox is alone trying to make these sorts of games. I do think something more like Victoria, where there are outside resources you can start wrestling with to influence things, would be better, but can you do that without the complexity? Ham Sandwiches posted:The guy using it in this very thread explained it was because he hated mana points being console kiddie COD trash so much dude ExtraNoise posted:Just to be clear: I am not bothered when someone uses it. When someone uses it, it implies they hate everything about modern Paradox games and I can just skip their opinion because I'd actually like to talk about the games, not why they are bad "these days". Except even the devs use it, and they clearly think the newer games are better than the old. Do you assume devs have nothing worthwhile to say about Paradox games? Because, uh. Jeez.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:36
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Beamed posted:Except even the devs use it, and they clearly think the newer games are better than the old. Do you assume devs have nothing worthwhile to say about Paradox games? Because, uh. Jeez. I think they use it ironically. Maybe not, who knows. It's actually not that important. I was just stating an opinion that I think using it as a term is dumb. You don't have to give any weight to my opinions, I'm just a rando internet guy.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:42
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ExtraNoise posted:I think they use it ironically. I don't think it's ironic just because it is an encapsulation of what it is, right, just a ticking meter you can spend to do stuff. Which isn't a bad thing even as an abstraction, it's just useful shorthand (that's one character less than "power"  )
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Jun 25, 2018 23:43
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Going forward instead of calling the resource mana I'm now going to refer to it as MP, short for Mana Points.
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Jun 25, 2018 23:43
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Is the term "Mana" better than or worse than "Bonii" and "Malii"
Takanago fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Jun 25, 2018 |
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Jun 25, 2018 23:44
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Muffin Points
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Jun 25, 2018 23:48
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Pakled posted:I don't mind mana. What I don't like is the approach to mana Paradox took in EU4 DLC. They want all the DLC to be modular because they don't want you to have to buy ALL the DLC to enjoy the game, so they don't hook all the systems together too tightly. But the result of this is a thousand different point pools that only do one thing each and barely interact with each other. Right. This. Like, there are a bunch of different ticking religious point types, like Church Power, Fervor, Papal Influence, Patriarch Authority, Legalism/Mysticism. All of them are sort of the same thing, a kind of religious mana which can be used to influence your states relationship with your state religion, and yet have minimal relationship to your actual religious estate (bonus ticking points barely count). Seems like these could be consolidated in a broader religious influence point pool that EVERY religion could use to do (different) fun things, and you got points for your relationship with the church estate and doing things they liked (like converting heathens and spending your cash on churches and so forth). Expand this to all the various ticking point pools. I wonder if there should be less unique point pools, and more of these things you have to buy with base monarch points. Making your choices harder.
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Jun 26, 2018 00:47
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Wait, back it up. You can influence your Monarch Points influx in ways other than just your monarch stats now?
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Jun 26, 2018 00:54
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Redeye Flight posted:Wait, back it up. ever hire an advisor? they're pretty useful
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Jun 26, 2018 00:56
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Redeye Flight posted:Wait, back it up. Advisors, national focus, estates, power projection, or if you're really desperate, humiliation wars.
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Jun 26, 2018 01:01
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Ham Sandwiches posted:No, you are choosing to assign a dumb pejorative term and consider it clever and you expect people to engage in discourse while being ridiculous, it's not going to happen What sort of mana do I have to spend to pull the rod out of your rear end?
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Jun 26, 2018 01:02
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Randomly assigned monarchs being the only thing that determined monarch points was a big issue back in the day but there's plenty of ways to influence that now, it's not really a problem anymore.Fintilgin posted:Right. This. I kinda agree that consolidating these point types for the various unique religions or governments wouldn't hurt, but I also don't think they're the major problem--since they're unique to certain things, you only have to be interacting with a few of them in each run, and they don't add so much to the bloat. I think it's the superfluous global ones, like army professionalism and especially innovativeness, that are the real problem. Whoever said the issue is the three monarch points influencing too many different things at once, I completely disagree--I think the problem is the total opposite. There should be fewer major point types but with widespread effects; it's kind of the whole point of them even, isn't it? The advantage of "mana" is that it's a constraining resource that you can't snowball with. The more you spread what you can do with it, the deeper it gets with more opportunity costs; spreading it out into more different types is what turns it into just being tedious ticking bars.
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Jun 26, 2018 01:06
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I just remembered how back when the game first came out non-Europeans just got less monarch points for no reason. For those who don't remember: nowadays, everyone gets +3 in each category as a base, but it used to be that Asians only got +2, Africans got +1, and Americans got 0. And that was on top of their tech penalties, which were much more harsh before institutions. Fister Roboto fucked around with this message at 01:12 on Jun 26, 2018 |
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Jun 26, 2018 01:08
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Prav posted:ever hire an advisor? they're pretty useful Man, that poo poo is expensive early on. I'm not good enough at this game to blob super good. Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Advisors, national focus, estates, power projection, or if you're really desperate, humiliation wars. But yeah, I lost track of all the expansions at some point and trying to get back in is frankly overwhelming with all the new mechanics. Sometimes I have to ask the stupid questions. Thanks!
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Jun 26, 2018 01:27
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Redeye Flight posted:Man, that poo poo is expensive early on. I'm not good enough at this game to blob super good. shake down the estates for a half-price rank 2 and you're looking at +2 MP for a duck and a half
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Jun 26, 2018 01:29
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There's also disinheriting. If you have Rights of Man, then at the cost of prestige you can toss all your terrible 1/1/1 heirs into the sea and hope for better ones.
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Jun 26, 2018 01:46
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Takanago posted:Is the term "Mana" better than or worse than "Bonii" and "Malii" extremely better
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Jun 26, 2018 03:42
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Just let Wiz design any and all Paradox games thank you
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Jun 26, 2018 04:02
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Crazycryodude posted:Just let Wiz design any and all Paradox games thank you yea cuz stellaris is the pinnacle of game design here
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Jun 26, 2018 04:29
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Gamerofthegame posted:yea cuz stellaris is the pinnacle of game design here ...do you know the history of his involvement in stellaris?
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Jun 26, 2018 04:39
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Fuligin posted:...do you know the history of his involvement in stellaris? Stellaris is trash hth. spectralent posted:Okay, sure, development isn't DLC, but the only way the game lets you meaningfully interact with development is a DLC feature, so it can't meaningfully change due to the DLC model. Like, if another DLC or update was going to make development change with trade power, or something, it'd be altering a DLC feature. I don't think I've had horde razing come up in 90% of EUIV games I've played, so I feel like in spirit development changes end up being another orphan mechanic. The way MP (magicka points) is used makes complete sense. At first you’re totally dependent on the rng of your government but as the state gets more and more massive your income gets bigger and you could invest the resources of your now massive state with massive resources into technology or infrastructure (development) if you don’t like that then you’re automatically a retard. Why is everyone in this thread starting their sentences with “like,” that’s some little dick poo poo. SnoochtotheNooch fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jun 26, 2018 |
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Jun 26, 2018 05:22
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SnoochtotheNooch posted:Stellaris is trash hth. Someone else was in charge of making the game, and it was kind of a mess. Wiz was put in charge of it after release and has been fixing it with amazing results ever since.
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Jun 26, 2018 06:02
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TBH I don't really view Mana as a simplification or "dumbing down" of Paradox games mostly because of what they're replacing. EU3's sliders were just as much as an abstraction as Monarch Points are now, as were Agents you sent to build buildings and so on. In terms of simulating real life its a lateral move, while in terms of fun gameplay mechanics its definitely an improvement. Which is also why I don't want a similar power system to replace any of the unique simulation-y stuff if they ever make a V3.
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Jun 26, 2018 06:15
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Eiba posted:So... you don't know the history of his involvement in Stellaris. Why am I not surprised, that's like Wiz's specialty.
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Jun 26, 2018 07:26
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SnoochtotheNooch posted:Stellaris is trash hth. like, that was not a post about the quality of stellaris, like, you seem like kind of a retard?? i dunno, hth
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Jun 26, 2018 08:01
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Jackie D posted:Muffin Points Redeye Flight posted:Why am I not surprised, that's like Wiz's specialty.
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Jun 26, 2018 09:17
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Imperator’s pops look promising so far, but I wish they had some sort of patronage system. After all, it was the most important social dynamic of Rome and other republics and I think it could provide an interesting and fun way for characters and pops to interact.Fuligin posted:imperator might be the game that finally unleashes my inner pedant paradox forums-goer. "Citizen" being distinguished from plebs is gonna make me burst a blood vessel
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Jun 26, 2018 11:46
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You know, with the moddability of pops according to that dev diary, you just know that the first mod that's going to come out is adding patricians and plebians as special rome-only pops that add a billion overpowered bonuses and as many unimportant penalties, plus probably some grafted-on romanization system that lets rome convert as many other pops to them as they want without paying or any disadvantages to doing so.
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Jun 26, 2018 11:51
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ExtraNoise posted:Yeah but you're a cool dude who makes my original argument hard as hell to follow-up on. I also use it a lot, we've appropriated the word now. Though seeing a guy get gold on r/Paradoxplaza just for saying the same poo poo someone else said 6 years ago when we announced EU4 did make me scratch my head. The conversation hasn't moved and there's not a lot of substance to the "But EU3 did it better" (even though they're not that explicit about it anymore except the one guy who said Magisters were good  )e: also of course I am not slating things over saying there are zero improvements to be made. But armchair devs on internet seem to have a very binary look on how things are and what you should consider when you make features. Groogy fucked around with this message at 12:23 on Jun 26, 2018 |
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Jun 26, 2018 12:19
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Groogy posted:e: also of course I am not slating things over saying there are zero improvements to be made. But armchair devs on internet seem to have a very binary look on how things are and what you should consider when you make features.
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Jun 26, 2018 12:26
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A Buttery Pastry posted:You should consider making good games, and not bad games Ooooh riiiight that's what I forgot. Snap, oh well.
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Jun 26, 2018 12:28
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I've spent a little over 2000 hours in Paradox games and while occasionally frustrating the vast majority has been fun. 
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Jun 26, 2018 12:44
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