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the Orb of Zot posted:What if she made Pokemon Reborn, and has to suffer through it herself as punishment? Or, better idea, Raven is in this for the same reason we are. Masochism, and morbid curiosity to see exactly how deep this rabbit hole full of diarrhea goes.
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Jun 28, 2018 15:40
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Black Robe posted:So do Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald and the remakes, and X/Y. For some reason, Hoenn escaped me. Never played X/Y though. But yeah the key is, we're a foreign person is this strange place with no place to call home. No friends, because everyone we could consider a friend is an rear end in a top hat or a creep. We don't really have any grounding element, and I feel that's actually something interesting to consider with Pokemon. Someone brought it up in a discussion about Earthbound, how you can always call home to talk to your mother and homesick is a status ailment, and the grounding element of home is always hanging there. In Pokemon the same thing sort of exists. You always have a small town to call home, somewhere to, at the end of it all, rest your head and put your feet up. Reborn lacks that, where do we stay? Do we just camp out like hobo's in this filthy city? And that's one of the beauty of the "Great Outdoors" nature of Pokemon, the sense of adventure and the connection with nature. I guess Pokemon centers but... again without that feeling of home, the game sure lacks something.
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Jun 28, 2018 15:46
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In the canon games you beat the Champion, credits roll, and you wake up at home in your own bed. In this game I suspect you beat whatever the equivalent is, credits roll, and you wake up in an alleyway missing a kidney and your wallet.
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Jun 28, 2018 15:53
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Onmi posted:For some reason, Hoenn escaped me. Never played X/Y though. But yeah the key is, we're a foreign person is this strange place with no place to call home. No friends, because everyone we could consider a friend is an rear end in a top hat or a creep. We don't really have any grounding element, and I feel that's actually something interesting to consider with Pokemon. Someone brought it up in a discussion about Earthbound, how you can always call home to talk to your mother and homesick is a status ailment, and the grounding element of home is always hanging there. In Pokemon the same thing sort of exists. You always have a small town to call home, somewhere to, at the end of it all, rest your head and put your feet up. Well, let's look at the intro for Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald/OR/AS: You're moving to Hoenn because your dad is going to work there, mom tells you to go up to your room and set your clock, get implications that dad is working for a Pokémon Gym, mom tells you that dad's friend lives next door so you should say hello, dad's friend's wife tells you about their son/daughter who wants to make a new friend, meet said son/daughter, realize you haven't met dad's friend yet, find dad's friend attacked by Poochyena, dad's friend implores you to take one of three Pokémon to fight the Poochyena, save dad's friend from Poochyena with said Pokémon, formally get said Pokémon from dad's friend, dad's friend asks you to meet up with his son/daughter at Route 103 to learn more about what having Pokémon is all about, get told about the functions of PokéMarts and Pokémon Centers + get some Potions, fight dad's friend's son/daughter and win, go with dad's friend's son/daughter back to dad's friend, get Pokédex from dad's friend, dad's friend urges you to explore the country and fill up the dex with all the Pokémon you see/capture. Ok, it's possibly somewhat changed between all these versions, but that's basically the general gist of the opening plot, and it gives you everything you need and want to go out, explore the world, catch Pokémon, battle with Pokémon, and have fun doing it! And it's just so infinitely better than what Reborn does.
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Jun 28, 2018 16:26
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Is Reborn the final stop on the line, even? Is it possible that Raven actually wanted to go somewhere else and then they got stranded?
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Jun 28, 2018 16:44
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From where I'm sitting the real issue with Reborn is that it actually does get you to wonder about the player character's motivation. That's not good for a game with a silent protagonist. Generally speaking for a silent protagonist to work you either characterize them through their choices and interactions (SMT often does this), you have other characters speak for them (Chrono Trigger's approach generally), or you lean in on them being a proxy for the player and do things to make their character generally unimportant (this is Pokemon's most common approach). Naturally most games do some combination of the three, but I think Reborn totally misses the mark on its hero. When it comes to characterizing the player character the other pokemon games generally don't and don't need to. The silent protagonist goes on an adventure, and you don't really question it. Why? Well it's a little because of the setting and a lot because of the game. In the setting it's seen as normal for ten-year-olds to go on pokemon journeys and there are a trickle of setting and gameplay details to justify this throughout the franchise, but more on point the games are fun and distract you from these questions. Pokemon games are incredibly light-hearted, they have an incredibly lighthearted setting, and even when they decide to be serious there's lots of different little ways they take the edge of by throwing in humor or amusing asides or goofy characters. Pokemon games are fun to play, and I think you assume by proxy that your cipher of a player character is having a good time on their journey. You're having fun climbing to the top so it seems to stand to reason they're also continuing their journey in part because they're having a good time and actually want to do this. Put another way what do you actually know about your protagonist in a pokemon game? In S/M we know they're from Kanto, they have a mother, they're generally affable and pleasant, and they have a knack for pokemon training. That's about it, everything else in their character comes from what they/you do and who they meet. Most Pokemon protagonists are similarly vague, you often learn one or two things about their background or parents or something to make them mildly distinctive, but at the end of the day they're affable and pleasant and make friends and have a knack for pokemon training. And Pokemon doesn't need much more really, the games are simple and fun and so are the plots so what does it matter if the protagonist is little more than your empty proxy? Reborn is not fun. Pokemon Reborn is a miserable game, Reborn City is a miserable place to be, and more importantly the game absolutely refuses to let you forget this. Reborn has a depressed dude committing Suicide, kids abused by an evil psychiatrist, an utter rear end in a top hat who hates you for no good reason, a creepy TV show for odious furries, an evil team who officially kills people, and plenty of other things that constantly remind you that you're in a grimderp hellhole populated by awful people. Reborn is not fun to play, and as a result you start to wonder why the hell Raven came to this trash heap and why she's doing any of this poo poo instead of trying to vamoose ASAP. In mainline pokemon you don't wonder why the protagonist is doing things since the world is pretty and interesting and seems fun and exciting, but pretty and interesting and fun and exciting aren't ~edgy~ enough for Reborn and so they had to go. In their place is a consuming void of unfun suckage. Tied into that is Reborn's pretensions of having a story. Reborn I think has had more plot words in 3 gyms than many Pokemon games manage in 8. Now you can have a story driven game with a silent protagonist, games like Persona and Chrono Trigger prove it, but what's missing from Reborn is someone to talk for you. Story-driven games with silent protagonists still need words unless they're going for Dark Souls minimalism (Reborn is not), and that means you need some vector for speech. Reborn is missing Persona's ever present narration saying what "you" did or what "you" feel like, it's missing all those pointless but characterizing SMT text boxes where you can respond to people, it's missing the gaggle of major characters who hang out with you and can hold up a conversation with "you" so "you" never have to speak, it's missing a bit where "you" move automatically or take an action or reframe "you" taking an action like it's the character's decision (IE Chrono picking up Marle's pendant after she vanishes), and it's missing a Morgana or a Gouto-Douji (or a Rotom Pokedex) to hang out in "your" bag to say "oh that looks interesting, want to do that?" or to react to things that happen to you. Those are all tricks to create the illusion of a protagonist who is engaged in the story and actually speaks; they're ways to make your proxy seem like a real person even without speaking. And of course Reborn does little for getting across a plausible motivation for your hero. Reborn wants to have a story deeper than "I wanna be the very best/like no one ever was", but if you do that your silent protagonist needs to have some reason to get involved. You need to show that your hero actually wants to help people (Chrono picks up the pendant to try and save Marle), or has a duty they need to fulfill (like Kuzunoha Raidou, protector of the capital), or wants to make a difference (Joker chooses to continue stealing hearts), or even that they're caught up in circumstances beyond their control (What else can the hero of Devil Survivor do but fight?). Reborn gives nothing for Raven. Why did we come to Reborn to challenge the league even though everyone knows it's a hellhole? We're stuck here, sure, but is that our motivation now? To get the hell out of dodge? I'd believe it, but no words have been spoken to that effect and if that was the case why are we still challenging gyms? In theory Raven shouldn't know she's the player in a poo poo fangame and needs to clear enough flags to progress, so why is she continuing to collect badges? I've never had to wonder why a pokemon protagonist does what they do, but here I haven't got a clue.
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Jun 28, 2018 17:10
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Jun 28, 2018 17:21
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So your theory is that Raven has the same motivation for going to Reborn City that we do.
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Jun 28, 2018 17:36
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Omnicrom posted:Silent Protagonist Chat That's pretty much it. Our Protag is basically an automaton
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Jun 28, 2018 17:37
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I wonder if it would make a difference if they didn't kill off all the other avatars at the start. Have it be a competition amongst them all to clear the Pokémon reborn league. I get that the other rivals are supposed to fill that role, but they don't feel the same. They have lived here, and it's implied a couple of them have cleared it already before or were gym leaders or involved in some way. We need a rival who is going through the same poo poo we are.
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Jun 28, 2018 17:39
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Zereth posted:So your theory is that Raven has the same motivation for going to Reborn City that we do. Yeah. Disaster tourism is a thing.
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Jun 28, 2018 17:49
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Damanation posted:We need a rival who is going through the same poo poo we are. In this setting they'd need to be an ally, not a rival. Every single character and the landscape itself is currently an obstacle if not an outright threat.
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Jun 28, 2018 17:55
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Damanation posted:I wonder if it would make a difference if they didn't kill off all the other avatars at the start. Have it be a competition amongst them all to clear the Pokémon reborn league. This is actually a really good point. If all these scenes had Enoby show up to stand next to us and go "What the gently caress is going on? What should we do, Raven; how do we stop them?" it would be way less grating. Instead Raven's only option is to stand there glaring silently as bullshit happens and creepy assholes tell her she sucks.
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Jun 28, 2018 18:00
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megane posted:Instead Raven's only option is to stand there glaring silently as bullshit happens and creepy assholes tell her she sucks.
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Jun 28, 2018 18:14
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Black Robe posted:In this setting they'd need to be an ally, not a rival. Every single character and the landscape itself is currently an obstacle if not an outright threat. It, in fact, helps to have a friend, and pointedly, it helps to have a friend who's invested in you. Note the earlier scene with Fern, Florinia, and Julia... What the gently caress was Raven there for? None of them really talked to Raven, they more talked to each other and then at Raven but nothing about it was about Raven or really for her ears. On top of that, we get teamed up with Fern, who hates us. Like... at least Cain doesn't hate us, he's just a creep and coming on way too strong, but at least if we're tagging with him we're tagging with a human being who, for all intents and purposes, enjoys our company. And what did we learn tagging with Fern? Nothing we didn't already know, and nothing new. The whole segment could be cut for time and nothing would change. There's another thing to consider, what's our prize for finishing this league challenge? For most Pokemon protagonists, the league isn't even their REAL end goal. For Red, it's just another chance for him and Blue to sharpen themselves on each other. He's going for it, because Blue's going for it. Blue's going for it, because it gives him the drive to stop Red. Gold going after the league happened concurrently during his pursuit of Silver, and of course the overarching goal of helping with the Pokedex and helping Elm with his research. Yeah, Team Rocket is kinda a side-note in this game, but that's actually their role. They're a shell of their former selves desperate for the attention of their old boss. And when going to talk about Ruby, it makes me realize something important about all of these. Red, Gold, Ruby etc... they stumbled into Rocket/Magma/Aqua etc's schemes. Red didn't go to Mount Moon to stop Team Rocket, they were there when he was and he fought them just to get through. When Ruby enters the Petalburg woods, he encounters Aqua/Magma just helping out someone else along the way. It's the heroes intrinsic altruism that drives them forward. It's not even like Pokemon with a more defined story doesn't allow you to inscribe your own motivations. I'm one of the few people I know who basically hated N, and when I played BW, I played my protagonist as someone who was annoyed at N's simplistic mind view wrapped in a fairy tale that this was some grand legend being retold. I was able to play the game thinking of Black as someone who was sick of N's poo poo, and sick of everyone else essentially coddling him and protecting his delusions. And smacking him down without using Reshriam, in the end, denying him that climactic showdown he'd been so desperate for. And the thing is that still played into the theme's of Truth and Ideals in BW, that N had an idealized view of the world and Black dropped some harsh truth, that he wasn't special or the messiah or anything. I didn't see it as being edgy or being a dick, more that N's point of view was that of a fanatic, and he needed someone, anyone, to come smack him in the face and tell him to actually look around. See, I can think that in Black and White and point to how my actions while playing the game, presented that narrative. But since Reborn completely lacks in context, and because we have no reason to fight Meteor, no reason to fight the Gyms, and no friends/family here... what is our motivation? You know, so much could be averted, by giving Raven a cousin or an uncle or aunt or something. Some family she's come to visit. Just place them in a later ward and contextualize Raven's quest to that point earning enough badges to go see them, and by the time she does, she's properly motivated to put a stop to Meteor and everything.
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Jun 28, 2018 18:57
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Like I've been saying, I was pretty sure that the vague protagonist excuse was that the reborn league had recently reopened and that trainers were coming from all over to test themselves, but uh... For that being the setup they gave us, they certainly did everything they could to disprove it.
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Jun 28, 2018 19:06
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Raven's motivation is... revenge on Meteor for almost killing her with the train explosion? I'd think that was a safe assumption.
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Jun 28, 2018 19:10
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Pretty sure Raven's motivation is to show everyone how terrible they are by beating them up with a Bidoof. VVV I just threw up in my mouth a little. Not gaming at all is better than bad gaming. PoptartsNinja fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jun 28, 2018 |
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Jun 28, 2018 19:12
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I just realized. This is literally the fangame version of you going to some tabletop gaming store, and as you're browsing the shelves the owner comes and tells you there's an RP game running in the store and they're missing a person, and if you could fill in for them. Against your better judgement you agree. And then you end up being lead through this story you're not at all invested in, surrounded by people who are not at all invested in you, trying to make sense of all their laboriously intricate backstories and personalities and everything while they didn't even let you think of anything for your character beyond name/class (not that it matters because none of them will let you do any character building anyway). And the GM believes in adversarial GMing because of course.
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Jun 28, 2018 19:13
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Black Robe posted:In this setting they'd need to be an ally, not a rival. Every single character and the landscape itself is currently an obstacle if not an outright threat. Hey now, Victoria seems pretty chill.
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Jun 28, 2018 19:43
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Victoria is by far the most tolerable rival (and maybe even most tolerable character period) so far, but we’ve seen way less of her than Reborn’s entire other cast of assholes.
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Jun 28, 2018 19:46
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Me in Bethesda games tbh
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Jun 28, 2018 19:57
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Don't stop 
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Jun 28, 2018 20:00
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Jun 28, 2018 21:48
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What a twist!
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Jun 28, 2018 22:16
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Can we nominate that rock as our closest friend in this game now?
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Jun 28, 2018 22:17
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Damanation posted:Can we nominate that rock as our closest friend in this game now?
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Jun 28, 2018 22:40
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Damanation posted:Can we nominate that rock as our closest friend in this game now? "Rock! When Log is not available in stores near you! It's Rock! A Rock, Rock. Rock!"
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Jun 28, 2018 22:47
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In my anger I lashed out. I would say I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter anymore. The deed is done; the body inert at the foot of the bridge. There is no going back now. It's over. I failed you, rock. I'm sorry.
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Jun 28, 2018 22:52
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FoolyCharged posted:In my anger I lashed out. I would say I'm sorry, but it doesn't matter anymore. The deed is done; the body inert at the foot of the bridge. There is no going back now. It's over. I am disgusted you ignored what our good friend rock was trying to do. Clearly it tried to knock Fern off the bridge but in its disgust it missed him and instead plummeted to its death.
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Jun 28, 2018 22:55
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GSC probably had the least grounded protagonist, since in that game your rival was neither a friend nor somone who shared any goals with you, but you still had your mom and Elm calling you up every once in a while to compliment you on your progress, and Lance as Pokémon League hook. Reborn does not give you a single reason to give a gently caress, and I'm sure no one will get the character arc Silver did. For all the rightful flak SM gets for being cutscene-heavy, I did like how every plot beat on the first island ended with you going home to sleep in your own bed. I also liked the crew of stooges you had in XY, even if none of them ever came close to challenging you. BW let you dunk on N's idiot fantasies whenever you encountered him, and he ended up respecting you for it, and Alder was by far my favorite champion even though he's objectively the weakest. I will give Reborn this: It showcases how good official pokémon games are at making you put yourself in the protagonist's shoes, by showing you what a bad pokémon game would do.
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Jun 28, 2018 23:55
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Alder is just Cynthia but sad.
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Jun 29, 2018 00:37
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:For all the rightful flak SM gets for being cutscene-heavy, I did like how every plot beat on the first island ended with you going home to sleep in your own bed. I also liked the crew of stooges you had in XY, even if none of them ever came close to challenging you. BW let you dunk on N's idiot fantasies whenever you encountered him, and he ended up respecting you for it, and Alder was by far my favorite champion even though he's objectively the weakest. While I'm not too much a fan of XY's stooges as they just seem too diluted and really not all that memorable, not to mention it just feels like you're bullying Caleb/Serena because they never get a full party until post-game and how crushed they look post-fight. I think Hau really did nail the friendly rival aspect perfectly - he's easy going, clearly just taking his own time with the journey, and it really feels like you two just happen to run into each other when you do meet instead of him just waiting forever.
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Jun 29, 2018 01:10
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Us stuck here going somewhere else feels like a perfect metaphor for Reborn as a fangame, people stuck playing it due to coming across and somehow lacking other options.
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Jun 29, 2018 01:35
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PMush Perfect posted:Alder is just Cynthia but sad. Alder gets a rad theme song and is actually doing poo poo in the world outside of popping out of tall grass at random and walking through the plot with you. Also he has a team of cool bugs and pokémon he likes instead of garbage like Lucario and a bunch of OU pokés.
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Jun 29, 2018 02:06
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Onmi posted:It's not even like Pokemon with a more defined story doesn't allow you to inscribe your own motivations. I'm one of the few people I know who basically hated N, and when I played BW, I played my protagonist as someone who was annoyed at N's simplistic mind view wrapped in a fairy tale that this was some grand legend being retold. I was able to play the game thinking of Black as someone who was sick of N's poo poo, and sick of everyone else essentially coddling him and protecting his delusions. And smacking him down without using Reshriam, in the end, denying him that climactic showdown he'd been so desperate for. And the thing is that still played into the theme's of Truth and Ideals in BW, that N had an idealized view of the world and Black dropped some harsh truth, that he wasn't special or the messiah or anything. I didn't see it as being edgy or being a dick, more that N's point of view was that of a fanatic, and he needed someone, anyone, to come smack him in the face and tell him to actually look around. This right here is the dream of the silent protagonist story, a story where a player can invest themselves in the action of the game and decide for themselves who they are in the world even in a linear story. Given a course of mandatory actions if it holds together each person will have a different understanding of who they are and who they played in a game. In some ways that's the whole point of the Silent Protagonist and that's what it means for a character to be a proxy for the player because if it comes together than the silent protagonist is unique to every person who played the game without ever having to say a word. When it works it's really something special I think. Reborn does not work.
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Jun 29, 2018 02:14
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Geemer posted:I hope you don't mind me borrowing your drawing for a bit. this is art gently caress. yeah gently caress YEAH
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Jun 29, 2018 11:05
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I think playing as a faceless character in this story just doesn't work. What you should do is not have the intro train. Instead you play as Reborn City's officer Jenny, trying to get to the bottom of all the terrorism. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Jun 29, 2018 |
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Jun 29, 2018 15:23
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Azza Bamboo posted:I think playing as a faceless character in this story just doesn't work.
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Jun 29, 2018 15:47
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Zereth posted:I don't remember Raven ever being provided with even the slightest hint of motivation. Not even a local professor handing them a pokedex and going "hey can you do some research for me please". The absolute closest is Julia popping in, being godawful, assuming automatically you're here to challenge the league, and then not taking no for an answer.
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Jun 29, 2018 18:31
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